Hi Scott and Robert !, Yes I'm still kicking around !
Man I tell ya...
When HDMI spec 1.3 was released Thursday, 6/22, it changed things. I admit it annoyed me as I just got HDMI 1.2 into the projector complete with HDCP and the correct EDID to identify the projector to the HDMI source device. Good thing I was doing this as a hobby and not as a business.
With the Sony PS3 ( read Blu-Ray ) supporting 1.3 in the 4th qtr this is gonna hurt sales of current HDMI 1.2 products and really annoy anyone who purchased a HDMI device to date. I have sold -zero- and invested -zero- in R&D so I'm good. ANY HD-DVD player or Blu-Ray player you can just toss out if it does not have the now supported 1.3 spec as all the Blu-Ray mastering may well be for 1.3 color space and frame rates.
YES its backward compatible - but who wants that. As a consumer I wanna upgrade. I can do that right ? WRONG...
This spec isn't a little better. Its stunningly better and a huge change.
A new impressive color spec, xvYCC, that encompasses a MUCH larger color space with better gamma. 16 bits PER COLOR for a 48 bit space. 4:4:4 RGB and support for 1920x1080@120hz. ALL AT THE SAME TIME !
A whopping 10.3Gb/sec max. With room to grow further.
W-O-W
AND if that was not enough DTS-HD, SACD and DVD-Audio support.
HOWEVER...
NOTHING CURRENTLY IS UP TO 1.3. NOTHING THAT HAS SHIPPED TO DATE OR WILL SHIP TILL AT LEAST 10/06 WILL SUPPORT THE 1.3 SPEC.
Not cables, not receivers, not plasma TV's, no HDMI switches or repeaters,,, NOTHING !
The chips to implement 1.3 wont ship till October ! so NO ONE can even start to build anything till then.
This should be covered in the press as its seriously gonna annoy people and effect sales of main stream consumer products.
Imagine as someone discovers that the $20k projector they just bought will not EVER support 1.3. Just throw it away.
Of course my analog projector will. Hehehe..
1920x1080@120 or 96 and its got way more then 16 bits per color. More like an infinite bit depth with infinite contrast ratio. I still like CRT - at the very least its very future proof.
You guys remember what it looked like with HD and with a DVD+Teranex, imagine what this new spec will look like :) OoOOoOo..
Makes me wanna improve it and tweak some more. Yea I got a way to get HDMI 1.2 into the projector complete with HDCP. On a card in fact. I will find a way to get 1.3 as well.
By the way, the -ONLY- way to listen to DTS-HD with a external decoder will be with 1.3 unless you use multi-channel analog outputs from the player and again, who wants to do that.
Tell people about this issue with HDMI 1.3. The good AND the bad.
Everything currently shipping with HDMI is obsolete on arrival.
Glad to hear from you! I certainly understand your frustration with the impending obsolescence of HDMI 1.2 as 1.3 enters the market. However, my take is a bit different. As you well know, technology marches inexorably onward, and there's nothing we can do to stop it. Technologies change (for the better, we hope!), leaving previous generations in the dust. But if one dwells on this, one never buys anything! Once 1.3 is available, should we wait until 1.4 comes out? Surely, it will kick 1.3's butt!
In general, if someone is ready to buy a certain type of product but they are concerned that as soon as their credit card is charged, the product will instantly become obsolete, I say find the best currently available product that does what you need (and fits your budget) and go for it. Even if it is superceded by something better in the future, it will still do what you bought it to do in the first place.
In the case of HDMI, I recognize that it is fraught with problems--incompatibilities, strange behavior, etc. So in this particular case, if one can wait until products that implement 1.3 become available, that's a good strategy. Not only will it perform better, it will likely have fewer compatibility and performance issues. But for those who already have HDMI products, I would ask, "Do they work as intended?" If so, they will continue to do so (barring equipment failure), so don't worry about it. Replace them when your needs change and your budget allows. If they don't work as intended, figure out why not--call the manufacturers and demand they fix the problem or accept the product back as a defective unit. Consumers must hold manufacturers accountable for products that don't perform as advertised.
As for the new color space, I'm concerned that it does not match the color space used in the production of current titles. This also applies to displays that boast "expanded color space." In my view, the production and playback ends of the chain should use the same color space; otherwise, what you see is not what the producer intended.
I agree that 1.3 is a huge improvement, and I look forward to testing products that implement it. But meanwhile, 1.2 does what it was intended to do (well, most of the time, at least), and those who use it successfully aren't suddenly going to find that it has stopped working just because 1.3 is about to appear.
I also agree that the press should make it clear what a sea change 1.3 is going to be. If someone is considering the purchase of a product with HDMI and they can wait until next year, I recommend they wait. However, waiting until next year might not be practical for some, or the improvements in 1.3 might not matter to them; in that case, I recommend that they make sure the products they intend to buy work as expected with other potential or already-owned HDMI products.
There are no TVs (or any product) available today that implement HDMI 1.3. This version should start appearing in products perhaps by the end of the year, but I suspect it won't be until next year. I'm sure we'll see plenty of 1.3-equipped products at CES in January, but few if any of those will actually be available at that time.
Any TV you buy today will be "compatible" in that 1.3 is backward-compatible with earlier versions (at least, I belive this to be true). However, it won't be able to take full advantage of the higher bandwidth and other improvements in the new version. If you want a TV that can take full advantage of 1.3, you must wait, probably at least six months.
I recently visited a projector manufacturer who told me that products with HDMI v1.3 (all products, not just projectors) won't be on the market until the middle of 2007. It takes nearly a year after the spec is finalized to create the chips, and then to design those chips into the next generation of products.
Robert Harley
Editor-in-Chief
The Perfect Vision
The Absolute Sound
I guess I don't see what the big concern is. Is video content mastered using the "deep color" specs? In other words, will we really see any difference between HDMI 1.3 and previouse HDMI displays?
As far as the audio portion goes, you can get the new hi-def audio (when it's available) decoded in the player and sent through an HDMI 1.1 interface via PCM. Not a big deal in my book. You may not be able to use an external decoder, but you're not entirely missing out on the functionality.
I’m new to this forum, so I apologize if my questions have already been asked and answered elsewhere.
I’ve been considering buying the 50” Sony A2000, while a friend just got his 55” A2000 last Saturday. We both bought non-HDMI Yamaha RX-V receivers < 2 yrs ago (he’s got a 1400, I have a 2500), i.e., before we knew about how important it would be to wait for a receiver with HDMI inputs. Also, we both have SA 8300HD STB’s.
The problem is that when he feeds the HDMI output from the 8300 to the A2000’s HDMI input (just for the video portion of the signal), and then uses an optical digital audio cable between the 8300 and the A2000, he only gets 2-channel PCM audio, despite the program/movie being recorded in DD 5.1 or DTS. When he switches the A2000 to the component video inputs (and digital audio), the surround sound signals return as expected.
Now, note this excerpt from the A2000 manual’s specification page:
----------------------------------------------------
HDMI IN 6/7
HDMI: Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Audio: Two channel linear PCM 32, 44.1 and
48 kHz, 16, 20, and 24 bits
----------------------------------------------------
Am I misinterpreting this, or is it implying that the A2000’s HDMI connection is only capable of outputting 2-channel audio, but not any multi-channel (surround) material (even if we had HDMI-equipped receivers)? Is this a problem only with Sony’s? Or does it occur with all HDMI connections when an HDMI cable is used for video signals and a digital audio cable is used for audio signals? I know there’s a patch available for the 8300 (which I’m told TW will apply at some point), but I think that’s mainly for handshake (or HDMI recognition) issues(?).
Based on what I’ve read (in other forums and various news reports), HDMI (at least, v1.1 & v1.2) seems to be absolutely riddled with problems (whether handshake ones, 2-channel audio, or even loose plug connections falling out of it’s input/output!, etc.). I’ve also read that many/most of these problems stem from poor implementation of the HDMI spec by numerous manufacturer’s, which leads me to wonder if the spec was written far too loosely in the first place? So far, I’ve not seen any substantive indication (beyond general assumptions) that these problems are indeed successfully eliminated in 1.3 (whose spec I can only hope is much more strict and tightly written).
Even though I’ve been waiting over 4 years to get an excellent looking HDTV for a fairly affordable price (which the A2000 mostly is, except for a couple issues probably related to its DRC-MF v1 [rather than v2 or 2.5] chip), the wiser course may well be to take Scott Wilkinson’s prudent advice above to wait another year for HDMI 1.3 (i.e., in both an SXRD set, and in a new receiver)... sigh. At least my 16-year old 32” Sony XBR still looks as great as ever (for a 480i CRT)… knock on wood!
But if I do get the A2000 nnow (as well as an HDMI-equipped receiver sometime down the road), will the audio deliver DD5.1 & DTS via HDMI (much less the new uncompressed surround audio formats)? Or will I need to wait for 1.3 for that?
However, even though 1.3 promises twice the bandwidth of 1.1 & 1.2 (and the other great benefits that go along with that), and even if 1.3 fixes most of 1.1 & 1.2’s multitude of problems, who knows what new problems 1.3 might introduce? Because as far as I can tell, HDMI – to date – seems to be far too long on promises, and inexcusably short on actual performance. And I haven’t even touched on all the sinisterly evil HDCP issues, which would require a whole new thread!
Thanks in advance for any answers or insights that anyone might be able to offer.
It looks to me like the HDMI interface on your Sony set is indeed limited to 2 channel PCM audio. This is a not entirely uncommon issue with HDMI inteconnects on HDTV's because there are usually only 2 speakers (if any) provided with the HDTV and the HDTV manufacturer apparently doesn't see a need for a mult-channel audio connection. Information passed between HDMI interconnects is limited to the least capable of the source or destination interconnects as they "talk" to each other.
This isn't an HDMI 1.3 vs. 1.1 vs. 1.2 issue. If you get an AVR with an HDMI connection, you should have no problem getting multi-channel audio when connected directly to your STB (as long as both HDMI connections are capable of passing multi-channel audio information).
I just sent an inquiry to Scientific Atlanta about this. It seems very strange; the only thing I can think of at the moment is that the TV is telling the 8300 to output 2-channel audio because the TV can only handle 2-channel audio via HDMI. I suspect the TV is also telling the 8300 to downmix the multichannel audio to 2 channels; to verify this, listen to a known 5.1-channel program using the HDMI connection scheme so you hear only 2-channel audio (both from the receiver and the TV's internal speakers) and see if you can hear the dialog clearly. If so, the center channel is being mixed into the right and left channels; if not, the center and surround channels are simply being ignored.
Don & Scott, many thanks for your very illuminating replies!
That “HDMI Part 5 - Audio in HDMI Versions” article was excellent (I'm gonna have to read the whole series). It provided the most comprehensive explanation of HDMI audio I’ve seen yet, and answered and/or clarified practically all my questions and confusion re: HDMI audio. I had no inkling that “the HDMI specification requires at minimum that 2 channel PCM audio be supported over the HDMI interface, all other audio formats are optional.”
Apparently, Sony (slyly) chose to implement just the bare minimum of HDMI’s audio requirements in its A2000 line: 2 channel PCM only. IMO, they should’ve made that ‘caveat’ a LOT more apparent in their product descriptions (even if just as a boldface asterisk note next to the “HDMI Connection Input” line). Instead, their only disclosure of this limitation was to bury it in small print on page 61 of their manual. Can't say I respect them for that.
Given all of HDMI’s complexities and mixed assortment of implementations, every manufacturer (and dealer) should prominently list, in their advertisements and showroom displays, each specific HDMI capability they’ve implemented in any given model they make. Heretofore, we just (logically) assumed that since a given product claims it has an HDMI input, it automatically supports multi-channel audio signals along with its high def video ones, since those are 2 of HDMI's most prominently reported and advertised features. I doubt I'm alone in thinking this and suspect a large majority of other HDTV buyers probably assume pretty much the same. Apparently, our mistake was thinking logically.
Many thanks Scott, for asking to Scientific Atlanta about this odd phenomenon. Given my newfound understanding of HDMI audio, your suspicions makes a lot of sense and probably hits the nail on the head – on both counts. Though if you are correct, and the A2000’s (minimal) HDMI chip implementation is acting as the ‘controlling’ chip, it seems to me that it would be Sony’s responsibility to develop a patch to remedy this, not Scientific Atlanta’s.
With repsect to verifying that a known 5.1 encoded program was indeed being output in 2 channel PCM only, my friend told me he did verify that, though I’m not quite sure how he did so (but probably by watching Deadwood or a 5.1 movie on the HBOHD channel). I’m going over his house tonight for my first look at his 55A2000 (and will finally be able to view one via a cable connection), so I'll verify this precisely as you suggest. Also though, with the Yamaha receivers, 2 small red indicators light up in its front panel display when it detects only a stereo signal, but 6 red indicators light up (for L, C, R, LFE, SL & SR) when it detects a 5.1 signal.
Again, many thanks to both of you for your great insights and valuable assistance - I appreciate it!
Glad to be of help. I wouldn't bash Sony too hard about this; after all, their TV can only render two channels of audio, so there is really no reason for them to implement multichannel HDMI audio in the TV (though I agree they should make it more clear in their documentation). It seems to me to be more a problem with the SA 8300; if it can't send multichannel audio from its optical output when the HDMI destination can only render two channels, it is definitely flawed in this respect. The two digital bitstreams (optical and HDMI) should be separate and independent. I look forward to hearing the results of your tests this evening. Be sure to listen to both the TV's internal speakers and the receiver's audio to see if they both behave in the same manner.
I just got back from viewing and listening to the 55" A2000 - what an outstanding picture it has (at least, to my eyes)! Plus, all the SD channels we watched looked every bit as good as they do on my 32" XBR CRT (which is a relief, as that was another concern I had about this set and its DRC-MF v1 chip).
We watched Deadwood on HBOHD and confirmed it was coming through in DD 5.1 via the component & optical digital inputs. The audible presence of the surround channels was unmistakable, plus all 6 of the Yamaha's surround indicators lit up. Then we switched to the HDMI input, and listened to the audio through both the receiver and the A2000's speakers. The dialog was perfectly clear in both.
However, after reading your previous reply, it gave me another hunch about the 8300. After we tested the sound as above, I had my friend go into the 8300's Settings menu and scroll down to the "Audio: Digital Out" option. The 3 choices are: HDMI, Dolby Digital, and Other. He had it set to HDMI (as I suspected), so I had him change it to Dolby Digital and, whadaya know... the 5.1 surround sound filled the room at once (and the Yamaha's 6 surround indicator lights immediately lit up)!
So it seems the problem was an incorrect setting in the 8300 for this particular (non-HDMI receiver) hookup, and he's now able to view the video via HDMI while simultaneously hearing 5.1 surround sound via the digital optical cable (of course, if we were watching HDCP-encrypted content, this hookup would not work). Nonetheless I appreciate your help and apologize that this turned out to be a false alarm. However, it was your prior reply that got me thinking more about his hookup and the 8300 settings.
Now if only I can decide whether to prudently wait another year for HDMI 1.3, or to take the plunge now into the A2000's stunningly detailed and lifelike picture (which I admit I'm now very tempted to buy after getting the best view of it I've had to date). Or would buying now be a big mistake? I can't help but wonder if "obsolete" is perhaps a bit too strong a characterization for 1.3's improvements over 1.1 and 1.2? I just wish HDMI was designed in a way that made it relatively easy (and not prohibitively expensive) to remove the prior HDMI input/output and replace it with the latest version.
If you're talking about a video display, I guess I don't understand why you would want to wait another year for HDMI 1.3. On the audio side, the version of HDMI would not affect Sony's decision on what capabilities to provide in the set's HDMI connection. And from the video side, the new "deep color" capability will depend on source material being available and the display designed to take advantage of it. In my opinion, it's a bit of hype for now.
If you're considering upgrading your non-HDMI receiver, I can see where you might want to consider waiting, considering that you might be able to get more flexibility in having the new audio formats decoded in the AVR rather than the player, but you wouldn't really be missing out on any functionality with the current HDMI-equipped AVR's.
donstim makes very good points. I agree that waiting for a display that implements 1.3 is not necessary, especially if you need a new HDTV now, while waiting for an A/V receiver with 1.3 might make more sense.
I haven't seen the A2000 yet, but with all the buzz about it online, I'm working on getting one from Sony to review. Another RPTV worth considering is the Samsung HL-S5687W 56-inch DLP; I'm in the process of reviewing it now, and it looks mighty good. However, if you're sensitive to rainbows, that could be a problem for you with the Samsung. The Sony has no such problem because it's based on SXRD (LCoS) with three imagers, so no color wheel and no rainbows.
How silly of me not to think of checking the 8300's audio settings, and how smart of you to do so!
Thanks once again donstim and Scott for your cogent advice! Initially, it sounded like 1.3's doubled bandwidth and the increased "color space" was something that promised a dramatic difference in picture quality. But if I'm understanding you correctly, that's not necessarily the case. That's a great relief to hear because I very well may buy the A2000. I mainly need to decide whether to get the 50" or the 55" (I'll be sitting ~ 10-11 feet from the screen and could likely go with either size). As long as I can use HDMI for the video and the 8300's (and DVD's) digital audio outputs, and since my current AVR is < 2 years old, I'd prefer to wait at least 2-3 years before getting an HDMI AVR (i.e, as long as the cable carriers don't implement HDCP sooner, thereby throwing a monkey wrench in that hookup scheme). I won't get a high def DVD till the prices come down substantially (and this ridiculous format battle ends), i.e., probably 3-4 years from now.
Actually, I have seen Samsung's new HL-S5687W in 2 different stores, sitting nearly next to an A2000 (only 1 other set separating them in both stores). I fully agree that it too looks truly outstanding. After watching them both for 20-30 minutes (in each store), my untrained eyes had a very difficult time telling the difference between them - they looked that close. Perhaps in this or that different scene, one or the other alternately may have looked ever-so-slightly better than the other. In the end though, I'd probably give a very thin edge to the A2000 because in a racing scene where the camera panned really fast across the track, the pixels of track's pavement seemed to break up a little bit on the HL-S5687, but not that I could see on the A2000. Otherwise, they looked pretty equally great to me.
I've been closely following the Samsung DLP lines from the very beginning i.e., since the 1st (HLM?) line. Heretofore, I thought DLP was the most promising technology. But last years SXRD emergence, at a bare minimum, either equaled, or looked a little better than Pioneer's 50" plasma (which I previously thought was the best looking set of all), and left the DLP's in its wake. But this years 1080p HLS 87 series has made the most stunningly dramatic improvement I've seen yet from them. I occasionally saw rainbows on prior years models (only in fast motion scenes), but never saw a one on this years HL-S5687. IMO, this set is currently SXRD's most formidable competition - it'really looks that awesome too.
After reading part 3 of HDMI series (http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php) on 1.3, I need some clarification. donstim said: “the new ‘deep color’ capability will depend on source material being available and the display designed to take advantage of it.” Even if there’s little-to-no ‘deep color’ material now, any guess on when there will be?
Also, the article says: “…current display technologies, such as backlit LCD displays, can display colors far beyond those described by previously existing color space standards.” Does that apply to LCoS or DLP too? If so, would they need any other changes to display future deep color source material? Even if deep color’s “a bit of hype for now,” might it become more of a reality a few years from now?
It's not that I “need a new HDTV now”, I'd just like one. I understand nothing is ‘future-proof’; I’m just trying to look as far down the road as possible. IF 1.3’s new video features will eventually result in a visibly significant improvement in overall picture quality (even if takes 3-4 years before there's 'deep color' source material), I might be willing to wait for it. Or are the video benefits of 10.2 Gbps notably less than the article seems to imply?
I really don't know when--or if--deep color material will be produced, but if I had to guess, I'd say it won't be for several years at least. One problem is, what will displays without deep color do with that material? Content providers won't want to disenfranchise a huge base of viewers, so even if they have the capability of producing such material, I'm not sure they will.
Some LCD flat panels do exhibit a much bigger color space than NTSC or ATSC specify, which is of dubious value in my view. And LED backlighting has the potential for expanding that space even farther. The same goes for DLP RPTVs with LED or laser illumination instead of a traditional lamp. I haven't heard of any LCoS sets that will use LED or laser, but LED-illuminated DLP sets are starting to come on the market now, and Mitsubishi promises laser-illuminated sets by the end of 2007. More important than a bigger color space, these RPTVs will require no bulb replacement, offer virtually instant startup, and generate no heat.
I don't know what you're watching now, but if it's standard-def, I wouldn't wait. Do you really want to wait for years until deep color and other advantages of HDMI 1.3 become widespread? You could be enjoying the wonderful picture quality of HD now. I believe that is far more important than waiting for years for a benefit that may or may not materialize.
Question for Mr. Wilkinson, Harley, or any other HDMI Guru,
I was all but headed to a local retailer to pull the trigger on a new Sony XBR LCD flat panel when I caught wind of the whole HDMI “debate.” Can one of you with a decent understanding of the increase in bandwidth (from 1.2 to 1.3) give us a brief synopsis of how the new standard might improve on ghosting, motion blur, macro blocking, artifacts, etc. that exists in current panels (including the latest and greatest 1080p offerings). It is my understanding that these imperfections are more often related to the source material than the display device, but I am intrigued by the possibility that significantly increased frame rate(s) between TV and DVD or cable box could eliminate a lot of this. I have been doing a lot of research on the new standard, including on the official HDMI site, but this information seems to be somewhat esoteric at this stage.
Relating to some earlier recommendations in this thread, I could wait until mid-2007 to buy, but I am kind of anxious to get rid of the 240+ lb hernia maker sitting in my living room.
Any of your expert opinions would be a tremendous help!
Sorry for the delay in my reply; it's deadline time around here.
As far as I know, HDMI bandwidth has nothing to do with ghosting, motion blur, macroblocking, etc. Ghosting and motion blur is often seen in LCD panels with slow response times (over 8ms or so), and macroblocking is often caused by careless video encoding. Increasing the frame rate would not do much to eliminate these artifacts, at least not until movies and video are shot at higher frame rates, which I don't see happening any time soon.
In my view, the biggest advantage of increasing the frame rate is to allow 1080p/72 (72 frames per second) from future HD DVD or Blu-ray players so they can output each frame of the 1080/24 content on the disc three times. This also requires a display that can accept 1080p/72; at the moment, only Pioneer dsiplays can do this. Keeping the video at multiples of 24 fps eliminates all 3:2 pulldown artifacts.
The one advantage of HDMI 1.3 that I find compelling at the moment is that it can carry the new audio formats, such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. Until we have HDMI 1.3 AVRs and controllers, these formats must be decoded in the player and sent via analog.
Of course, Deep Color is another advantage of HDMI 1.3, but as you've read in this thread, I don't think it's such a big deal until displays can reproduce the wider color space and content is produced using that space. I don't think this is going to happen any time soon, so if you're ready to take the plunge and upgrade, I say go for it.
HMDI 1.1 will carry the new audio formats, too -- via PCM after being decoded in the player. You aren't stuck with only being able to transfer the audio via athe nalog connections.
I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show and reporting twice a day on hot news stories and product announcements at www.avguide.com. Our daily coverage begins Wednesday, September 13.
Robert Harley
Editor-in-Chief
The Perfect Vision
The Absolute Sound
Thanks for the reply Scott. With most manufacturers rolling out new models in the coming months, it’s hard to make a decision on when to pull the trigger.
In his reply of Sept 6 in this thread, Robert Harley said:
" I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show and reporting twice a day on hot news stories and product announcements at www.avguide.com. Our daily coverage begins Wednesday, September 13."
I read through the TPV CEDIA reports but didn't see anything on HDMI 1.3 compatibility and future HDMI 1.3 products.
I was covering flat panels and rear projectors at CEDIA, and I didn't see much of any news on HDMI 1.3. I suspect that Robert might have seen more in his coverage of AVRs and processors, and I think Barry Willis has done some recent research on the subject. What say you, fellas?
While we wait for news from the folks at Perfect Vision, I thought you'd be interested to know that in the latest issue of Sound & Vision, they report (and the Toshiba website confirms) that in December Toshiba will introduce two second generation HD DVD units. The higher end of the two, the HD-XA2 will support HDMI 1.3, apparently with Deep Color enabling 36-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
I see that Barry Willis, who, I believe, wrote that particular item, didn't mention HDMI 1.3 in the XA2. However, he did mention the increased color depth (albeit incorrectly at 32 bits instead of 36 bits). The problem with show reporting is that there is so little time to put reports together, much less cross-check them, it's very easy to make mistakes like that. Sorry about that; we'll try harder to be more accurate in the future.
Meanwhile, I must reiterate that I'm not convinced that Deep Color is such a big deal or something that consumers should necessarily wait for. I maintain that a video display should reproduce the same color space that was used to create the content, and no content creators I know of are planning on using anything else but SMPTE C (and, hopefully, SMPTE HD) any time soon. So the value of a wider color space in the transmission interface and display is doubtful to me.
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on the website that when you were asked to identify the most significant new video technology at CEDIA, you identified a Hitachi 42 plasma, rather than HDMI 1.3. Is that because there were no 1.3 products or because you don't attach importance to 1.3?
Also, Mr Harley wrote above in this thread that "I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show." I haven't seen anything reported on HDMI. Was there no buzz at all at CEDIA?
I didn't see or hear much buzz about HDMI 1.3 products at the show, at least not in the projector and flat panel product categories. Also, you are correct that I am not so gung-ho on it in any event. It's not that I dislike it; in fact, I suspect it could help ameliorate some of the glitches that many people report when using HDMI (though I have not personally experienced many of these glitches). But I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that others seem to think it is.
For both of these reasons, I did not identify it as the most important video technology at the show.
Last week I had a lengthy conversation with someone at the HDMI group, a fellow directly involved with testing and approving manufacturers' prototypes for HDMI licenses. He said that most of the performance and interfacing problems they see are caused by misuse of the HDMI-mandated 5V source, and by lack of precision in designing and making four-layer circuit boards.
Suffice it to say that all the reported glitches with HDMI are real. Some, as with the Sony TV and Scientific Atlanta cable box mentioned in this thread, can be cured by going into the setup menu and making changes. Others are incurable design flaws. This is why installers are still running parallel analog cables with every digital line. Look for a report on this in TPV 74.
As for CEDIA, there was next to no emphasis on HDMI 1.3 at that show. CEDIA is all about what's hot for the custom install industry. As Scott Wilkinson points out above, HDMI 1.3 is really about future performance enhancements, like deep color space and 1080p/72, that may be useful and beneficial when/if they are incorporated in source materials. For the immediate future, most of the potential will lie dormant.
There's no justifiable reason to buy anything on the assumption that 1.3 will become a market force. It could be superceded by something better before it has a chance to gain a significant foothold. (Something similar happened with FireWire vs. USB 2.0.) One thing we can say with certainty: technology will march on, and everything that is now state-of-the-art will one day be obsolete.
You can't future-proof any purchase. Therefore, buy the best gear at the best price, with the options that make it really useful today.
Barry Willis
Integration Editor
The Perfect Vision
Howdy ! Just joined up....long time TPV sub....
I remember when DVI & DVI.HDCP 1st came out........there were hints about HDMI............have a question then....any hints on the next _____? (wireless maybe ??)
At present I'm enjoying my 52" Toshiba CRT HD RPTV with DVI/HDCP with digital Cable. Guess I'm outdated by both techs...but still loving HD programing
Yes, I think you've got it just right...wireless HDMI is the Next Big Thing. There are several companies working on it, and I think it holds great promise. Best of all, it can be used with existing HDMI devices with the addition of outboard transmitters and receivers, which should be relatively small when they become available.
The first such system I know of will probably come from Gefen using an underlying technology from a company called Amimon. The outboard boxes might be fairly large in this case, being the first of such system to become available. Another company deep into wireless HDMI is Neosonik; see Barry Willis' report in TPV 74.
I am new to this site, but the information being discussed is exactly what is on my mind.
I just bought myself a Samsung Hl-S5687W and a PS3. The PS3 supports HDMI 1.3, but as stated.. no tvs, receivers, etc are supporting that stuff right now.
I know there are no clear examples of what 1.3 will have over 1.2, but should I worry about waiting, or should I buy for 1.2?
I am going to be buying a receiver very soon, and I was looking at the Panasonic SA-XR700 due to its 1080p out.
Between the three things, I am disappointed that I will not be able to use HDMI 1.3, which PS3 supports.
- Will I be missing out on alot?
- And how much would you expect to see a reciever supporting HDMI 1.3 or a TV supporting HDMI 1.3 to start at pricewise? Let's say a DLP TV.
I was forwarded here from an article in The Perfect Vision about HDMI. Actually my experience with HDMI has been much worse than the article would indicate. I have spent unknown hours/days either researching HDMI products or trying to get the ones I own to play nice with each other.
My sad story started when I purchased a Denon 2807 to power a new HT that I was setting up. I am using an InFocus 7210 projector which has a native resolution of 720p. My sources are a Sony CX995V (400 disc DVD player), HD-Tivo, an Xbox 360, standard Xbox, and a Toshiba XA-1 HD-DVD player (yes I do realize the 2807 only has two HDMI inputs).
The CX995V had no issues sending video and audio through the 2807 and would upconvert to whatever resolution I requested.
The HD-Tivo on the other hand would send lovely video, but no audio through the 2807. I have three HD-Tivo's and they all preformed exactly the same. I also had DTV send me two additional HD-Tivo's so I could see if they would work. What followed was an excersise in finger pointing that would have made the Washington Politicians proud! Everyone claimed that their implementation of HDMI was correct and that the problem belonged to the "other guy."
Frustrated at several weeks of not being able to get the Tivo to operate I took the 2807 and traded it in on the then new Pioneer Elite 84TXsi.
No the Pioneer Elite used the HDMI audio from my HD-Tivo's first time and every time...... Yea I thought HDMI nirvanna!!!
Then my HD-DVD player returned from Toshiba (the first one was DOA due to a bad motherboard, but that is another long story). When I powered up the XA-1 I was excited to see video and hear audio coming through the Pioneer Elite... Yea!! However, after my initial thrill I noticed that the video looked horrible! When I checked my XA-1 I saw that it was outputting 720p... ah ha! Through my reading I knew that the current scaler in the XA-1 had "issues" with any resolution other than 1080i. So I pushed the resolution button on my XA-1 remote..., got the message that the button push had been detected and that the player would have to start over from the begining to change resolution, well that's Ok so I pushed OK and waited.... and waited.... and waited. The player was frozen and the only way to regain control was to hold the power button for 12-15 seconds and perform basicly a "hard" boot on the computer.
When I regained control the XA-1 came online again at 720p, so I ejected the disc. With the drawer open I changed the resolution to 1080i and closed the tray with no disc... the moment I pushed the close button the display changed by itself to 720p. The "no-disc" message was displayed so I changed the resolution to 1080i and opened the tray... again the XA-1 switched itself to 720p. So I changed it back to 1080i, placed a different (HD) disc in the drive and closed the drawer... you guessed it back to 720p. After the disc started to play I stopped it and changed the resolution to 1080i, pushed OK and once again the player froze. Being "somewhat" stubborn I tried this again about 10 times...
Then to trouble-shoot I selected 1080i output on my HD-Tivo, then selected the Tivo's input on the Pioneer and shazaam before my very eyes I saw the little green light on the front of the HD-Tivo jump from 1080i to 720p! Hmmm there was something smelly afoot.
So I plugged the HD-Tivo and the HD-DVD player seperately directly into the InFocus 7210 via HDMI cable to an HDMI->DVI (M1) connector. Both units played perfectly and would play whatever resolution I selected with no problems whatsoever. However, when the Elite 84 was placed in the chain the signal from each was locked to 720p. Somehow the EDID information is being trunkated such that the source is only receiving the primary display frequency when the Pioneer AVR is in the chain.
Please insert another round of professional "finger-pointing" at this juncture!
So as the XA-1 was incapable of displaying a decent image at 720p (it is better after the 2.0 firmware upgrade..., but still not as good as 1080i) I decided to bite the bullet and use the Component Out from the XA-1 and just let the Pioneer Transcode the image from analog to digital and output it over the HDMI cable to the projector.... silly me! Well it turns out that their is another "bug" hiding in the HDMI woodwork of the Pioneer Elite 84 which is that when you input an analog signal and then Transcode it out to HDMI... and that HDMI cable is connected to a DVI display device that something goes to heck in a handbasket! No matter what the resolution of the Component In signal, after it is Transcoded by the Elite 84 and sent to a DVI equipped display it is sent only at 480p! Now it does not matter what selection you have chose in the "av-parameters" section of the 84 (I have tried them all) the signal is only going out at 480p... Period!
Luckily I had run a set of Component cables to the projector also as these are what I have to use for any Component sources. If I input 1080i via Component to the Elite 84 and output it over Component to the projector it shows up as 1080i.
Pioneer's engineers did send me an email, but they claimed that they (Pineer) were doing everything correct with HDMI. This is my response: Now I freely admit that I am not as smart as you guys, but please answer me this. If several sources can display at 1080i when sent directly via HDMI->DVI to my projector with no problems whatsoever, but when the Elite 84 is placed in the chain the sources are then locked to 720p, where would you look for the problem???
The silence has been deafening from Pioneer!
So yes, I am completely torqued with this entire HDMI mess and would love to take those HollyRock Lawyers that foisted HDMI upon we the unsuspecting but trusting Home Theater Public and Hang them from the Highest Yardarm!
There are TWO theories for Successfully arguing with a Woman; Neither one Works!
redmosquito -- Wed, 04/25/2007 - 20:06
I just built my home and I have put 7 HDMI 1.3 in all the walls. I have bought All Sharp TV. I cannot get any signal. I realize now that Sharp has 1.2a input.
Is there a way around this problem? If yes how.
By the way I am like the village idiot when it comes to electronics. I was sold these at futureshop and I called them and they didnt have a clue. I read a couple threads and they mention "reverse connection " What does this mean? How do you go about and install it
Chris_Stephens wrote:As a consumer I wanna upgrade. I can do that right ? WRONG...
Quite worrying so much you'll give yourself a stroke :lol: From what I understand the upgrade is software related so if your equipment is firmware upgradable then you can upgrade to 1.3 easily. Most better LCD widescreens (like the Olevias for example) are upgradable via USB. Many manufactures are already selling 1.3 compatible cables. For most people there will be nothing to worry about, and for all the others there is always places like eBay where you can unload your non-upgradable units, and then simply make sure that your new unit is upgradable. All technology progresses sooner or later. I'm sure someone in some lab is working on HDMI 1.4 right now. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be enjoying all that HDMI 1.2 can offer you right now. Just make sure that your equipment is upgradable. Life is good :D
Comments
Hi Scott and Robert !, Yes I'm still kicking around !
Man I tell ya...
When HDMI spec 1.3 was released Thursday, 6/22, it changed things. I admit it annoyed me as I just got HDMI 1.2 into the projector complete with HDCP and the correct EDID to identify the projector to the HDMI source device. Good thing I was doing this as a hobby and not as a business.
With the Sony PS3 ( read Blu-Ray ) supporting 1.3 in the 4th qtr this is gonna hurt sales of current HDMI 1.2 products and really annoy anyone who purchased a HDMI device to date. I have sold -zero- and invested -zero- in R&D so I'm good. ANY HD-DVD player or Blu-Ray player you can just toss out if it does not have the now supported 1.3 spec as all the Blu-Ray mastering may well be for 1.3 color space and frame rates.
YES its backward compatible - but who wants that. As a consumer I wanna upgrade. I can do that right ? WRONG...
This spec isn't a little better. Its stunningly better and a huge change.
A new impressive color spec, xvYCC, that encompasses a MUCH larger color space with better gamma. 16 bits PER COLOR for a 48 bit space. 4:4:4 RGB and support for 1920x1080@120hz. ALL AT THE SAME TIME !
A whopping 10.3Gb/sec max. With room to grow further.
W-O-W
AND if that was not enough DTS-HD, SACD and DVD-Audio support.
HOWEVER...
NOTHING CURRENTLY IS UP TO 1.3. NOTHING THAT HAS SHIPPED TO DATE OR WILL SHIP TILL AT LEAST 10/06 WILL SUPPORT THE 1.3 SPEC.
Not cables, not receivers, not plasma TV's, no HDMI switches or repeaters,,, NOTHING !
The chips to implement 1.3 wont ship till October ! so NO ONE can even start to build anything till then.
This should be covered in the press as its seriously gonna annoy people and effect sales of main stream consumer products.
Imagine as someone discovers that the $20k projector they just bought will not EVER support 1.3. Just throw it away.
Of course my analog projector will. Hehehe..
1920x1080@120 or 96 and its got way more then 16 bits per color. More like an infinite bit depth with infinite contrast ratio. I still like CRT - at the very least its very future proof.
You guys remember what it looked like with HD and with a DVD+Teranex, imagine what this new spec will look like :) OoOOoOo..
Makes me wanna improve it and tweak some more. Yea I got a way to get HDMI 1.2 into the projector complete with HDCP. On a card in fact. I will find a way to get 1.3 as well.
By the way, the -ONLY- way to listen to DTS-HD with a external decoder will be with 1.3 unless you use multi-channel analog outputs from the player and again, who wants to do that.
Tell people about this issue with HDMI 1.3. The good AND the bad.
Everything currently shipping with HDMI is obsolete on arrival.
The 1.3 spec is available for download http://www.hdmi.org/
__________________
Hope you guys have been well.
Hi Chris,
Glad to hear from you! I certainly understand your frustration with the impending obsolescence of HDMI 1.2 as 1.3 enters the market. However, my take is a bit different. As you well know, technology marches inexorably onward, and there's nothing we can do to stop it. Technologies change (for the better, we hope!), leaving previous generations in the dust. But if one dwells on this, one never buys anything! Once 1.3 is available, should we wait until 1.4 comes out? Surely, it will kick 1.3's butt!
In general, if someone is ready to buy a certain type of product but they are concerned that as soon as their credit card is charged, the product will instantly become obsolete, I say find the best currently available product that does what you need (and fits your budget) and go for it. Even if it is superceded by something better in the future, it will still do what you bought it to do in the first place.
In the case of HDMI, I recognize that it is fraught with problems--incompatibilities, strange behavior, etc. So in this particular case, if one can wait until products that implement 1.3 become available, that's a good strategy. Not only will it perform better, it will likely have fewer compatibility and performance issues. But for those who already have HDMI products, I would ask, "Do they work as intended?" If so, they will continue to do so (barring equipment failure), so don't worry about it. Replace them when your needs change and your budget allows. If they don't work as intended, figure out why not--call the manufacturers and demand they fix the problem or accept the product back as a defective unit. Consumers must hold manufacturers accountable for products that don't perform as advertised.
As for the new color space, I'm concerned that it does not match the color space used in the production of current titles. This also applies to displays that boast "expanded color space." In my view, the production and playback ends of the chain should use the same color space; otherwise, what you see is not what the producer intended.
I agree that 1.3 is a huge improvement, and I look forward to testing products that implement it. But meanwhile, 1.2 does what it was intended to do (well, most of the time, at least), and those who use it successfully aren't suddenly going to find that it has stopped working just because 1.3 is about to appear.
I also agree that the press should make it clear what a sea change 1.3 is going to be. If someone is considering the purchase of a product with HDMI and they can wait until next year, I recommend they wait. However, waiting until next year might not be practical for some, or the improvements in 1.3 might not matter to them; in that case, I recommend that they make sure the products they intend to buy work as expected with other potential or already-owned HDMI products.
All the best,
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
What if I wanna buy a TV that will be HDMI 1.3 compatable? Is this possible? Will a 1080p TV work? Help me...
There are no TVs (or any product) available today that implement HDMI 1.3. This version should start appearing in products perhaps by the end of the year, but I suspect it won't be until next year. I'm sure we'll see plenty of 1.3-equipped products at CES in January, but few if any of those will actually be available at that time.
Any TV you buy today will be "compatible" in that 1.3 is backward-compatible with earlier versions (at least, I belive this to be true). However, it won't be able to take full advantage of the higher bandwidth and other improvements in the new version. If you want a TV that can take full advantage of 1.3, you must wait, probably at least six months.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
I recently visited a projector manufacturer who told me that products with HDMI v1.3 (all products, not just projectors) won't be on the market until the middle of 2007. It takes nearly a year after the spec is finalized to create the chips, and then to design those chips into the next generation of products.
Robert Harley
Editor-in-Chief
The Perfect Vision
The Absolute Sound
I guess I don't see what the big concern is. Is video content mastered using the "deep color" specs? In other words, will we really see any difference between HDMI 1.3 and previouse HDMI displays?
As far as the audio portion goes, you can get the new hi-def audio (when it's available) decoded in the player and sent through an HDMI 1.1 interface via PCM. Not a big deal in my book. You may not be able to use an external decoder, but you're not entirely missing out on the functionality.
I’m new to this forum, so I apologize if my questions have already been asked and answered elsewhere.
I’ve been considering buying the 50” Sony A2000, while a friend just got his 55” A2000 last Saturday. We both bought non-HDMI Yamaha RX-V receivers < 2 yrs ago (he’s got a 1400, I have a 2500), i.e., before we knew about how important it would be to wait for a receiver with HDMI inputs. Also, we both have SA 8300HD STB’s.
The problem is that when he feeds the HDMI output from the 8300 to the A2000’s HDMI input (just for the video portion of the signal), and then uses an optical digital audio cable between the 8300 and the A2000, he only gets 2-channel PCM audio, despite the program/movie being recorded in DD 5.1 or DTS. When he switches the A2000 to the component video inputs (and digital audio), the surround sound signals return as expected.
Now, note this excerpt from the A2000 manual’s specification page:
----------------------------------------------------
HDMI IN 6/7
HDMI: Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
Audio: Two channel linear PCM 32, 44.1 and
48 kHz, 16, 20, and 24 bits
----------------------------------------------------
Am I misinterpreting this, or is it implying that the A2000’s HDMI connection is only capable of outputting 2-channel audio, but not any multi-channel (surround) material (even if we had HDMI-equipped receivers)? Is this a problem only with Sony’s? Or does it occur with all HDMI connections when an HDMI cable is used for video signals and a digital audio cable is used for audio signals? I know there’s a patch available for the 8300 (which I’m told TW will apply at some point), but I think that’s mainly for handshake (or HDMI recognition) issues(?).
Based on what I’ve read (in other forums and various news reports), HDMI (at least, v1.1 & v1.2) seems to be absolutely riddled with problems (whether handshake ones, 2-channel audio, or even loose plug connections falling out of it’s input/output!, etc.). I’ve also read that many/most of these problems stem from poor implementation of the HDMI spec by numerous manufacturer’s, which leads me to wonder if the spec was written far too loosely in the first place? So far, I’ve not seen any substantive indication (beyond general assumptions) that these problems are indeed successfully eliminated in 1.3 (whose spec I can only hope is much more strict and tightly written).
Even though I’ve been waiting over 4 years to get an excellent looking HDTV for a fairly affordable price (which the A2000 mostly is, except for a couple issues probably related to its DRC-MF v1 [rather than v2 or 2.5] chip), the wiser course may well be to take Scott Wilkinson’s prudent advice above to wait another year for HDMI 1.3 (i.e., in both an SXRD set, and in a new receiver)... sigh. At least my 16-year old 32” Sony XBR still looks as great as ever (for a 480i CRT)… knock on wood!
But if I do get the A2000 nnow (as well as an HDMI-equipped receiver sometime down the road), will the audio deliver DD5.1 & DTS via HDMI (much less the new uncompressed surround audio formats)? Or will I need to wait for 1.3 for that?
However, even though 1.3 promises twice the bandwidth of 1.1 & 1.2 (and the other great benefits that go along with that), and even if 1.3 fixes most of 1.1 & 1.2’s multitude of problems, who knows what new problems 1.3 might introduce? Because as far as I can tell, HDMI – to date – seems to be far too long on promises, and inexcusably short on actual performance. And I haven’t even touched on all the sinisterly evil HDCP issues, which would require a whole new thread!
Thanks in advance for any answers or insights that anyone might be able to offer.
Rodger
Rodger
It looks to me like the HDMI interface on your Sony set is indeed limited to 2 channel PCM audio. This is a not entirely uncommon issue with HDMI inteconnects on HDTV's because there are usually only 2 speakers (if any) provided with the HDTV and the HDTV manufacturer apparently doesn't see a need for a mult-channel audio connection. Information passed between HDMI interconnects is limited to the least capable of the source or destination interconnects as they "talk" to each other.
This isn't an HDMI 1.3 vs. 1.1 vs. 1.2 issue. If you get an AVR with an HDMI connection, you should have no problem getting multi-channel audio when connected directly to your STB (as long as both HDMI connections are capable of passing multi-channel audio information).
That is my understanding anyway.
For more info, see http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/08/hdmi_part_5_-_audio_in_hdmi...
I just sent an inquiry to Scientific Atlanta about this. It seems very strange; the only thing I can think of at the moment is that the TV is telling the 8300 to output 2-channel audio because the TV can only handle 2-channel audio via HDMI. I suspect the TV is also telling the 8300 to downmix the multichannel audio to 2 channels; to verify this, listen to a known 5.1-channel program using the HDMI connection scheme so you hear only 2-channel audio (both from the receiver and the TV's internal speakers) and see if you can hear the dialog clearly. If so, the center channel is being mixed into the right and left channels; if not, the center and surround channels are simply being ignored.
I'll post SA's response as soon as I get it.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Don & Scott, many thanks for your very illuminating replies!
That “HDMI Part 5 - Audio in HDMI Versions” article was excellent (I'm gonna have to read the whole series). It provided the most comprehensive explanation of HDMI audio I’ve seen yet, and answered and/or clarified practically all my questions and confusion re: HDMI audio. I had no inkling that “the HDMI specification requires at minimum that 2 channel PCM audio be supported over the HDMI interface, all other audio formats are optional.”
Apparently, Sony (slyly) chose to implement just the bare minimum of HDMI’s audio requirements in its A2000 line: 2 channel PCM only. IMO, they should’ve made that ‘caveat’ a LOT more apparent in their product descriptions (even if just as a boldface asterisk note next to the “HDMI Connection Input” line). Instead, their only disclosure of this limitation was to bury it in small print on page 61 of their manual. Can't say I respect them for that.
Given all of HDMI’s complexities and mixed assortment of implementations, every manufacturer (and dealer) should prominently list, in their advertisements and showroom displays, each specific HDMI capability they’ve implemented in any given model they make. Heretofore, we just (logically) assumed that since a given product claims it has an HDMI input, it automatically supports multi-channel audio signals along with its high def video ones, since those are 2 of HDMI's most prominently reported and advertised features. I doubt I'm alone in thinking this and suspect a large majority of other HDTV buyers probably assume pretty much the same. Apparently, our mistake was thinking logically.
Many thanks Scott, for asking to Scientific Atlanta about this odd phenomenon. Given my newfound understanding of HDMI audio, your suspicions makes a lot of sense and probably hits the nail on the head – on both counts. Though if you are correct, and the A2000’s (minimal) HDMI chip implementation is acting as the ‘controlling’ chip, it seems to me that it would be Sony’s responsibility to develop a patch to remedy this, not Scientific Atlanta’s.
With repsect to verifying that a known 5.1 encoded program was indeed being output in 2 channel PCM only, my friend told me he did verify that, though I’m not quite sure how he did so (but probably by watching Deadwood or a 5.1 movie on the HBOHD channel). I’m going over his house tonight for my first look at his 55A2000 (and will finally be able to view one via a cable connection), so I'll verify this precisely as you suggest. Also though, with the Yamaha receivers, 2 small red indicators light up in its front panel display when it detects only a stereo signal, but 6 red indicators light up (for L, C, R, LFE, SL & SR) when it detects a 5.1 signal.
Again, many thanks to both of you for your great insights and valuable assistance - I appreciate it!
Rodger
Rodger
Glad to be of help. I wouldn't bash Sony too hard about this; after all, their TV can only render two channels of audio, so there is really no reason for them to implement multichannel HDMI audio in the TV (though I agree they should make it more clear in their documentation). It seems to me to be more a problem with the SA 8300; if it can't send multichannel audio from its optical output when the HDMI destination can only render two channels, it is definitely flawed in this respect. The two digital bitstreams (optical and HDMI) should be separate and independent. I look forward to hearing the results of your tests this evening. Be sure to listen to both the TV's internal speakers and the receiver's audio to see if they both behave in the same manner.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
I just got back from viewing and listening to the 55" A2000 - what an outstanding picture it has (at least, to my eyes)! Plus, all the SD channels we watched looked every bit as good as they do on my 32" XBR CRT (which is a relief, as that was another concern I had about this set and its DRC-MF v1 chip).
We watched Deadwood on HBOHD and confirmed it was coming through in DD 5.1 via the component & optical digital inputs. The audible presence of the surround channels was unmistakable, plus all 6 of the Yamaha's surround indicators lit up. Then we switched to the HDMI input, and listened to the audio through both the receiver and the A2000's speakers. The dialog was perfectly clear in both.
However, after reading your previous reply, it gave me another hunch about the 8300. After we tested the sound as above, I had my friend go into the 8300's Settings menu and scroll down to the "Audio: Digital Out" option. The 3 choices are: HDMI, Dolby Digital, and Other. He had it set to HDMI (as I suspected), so I had him change it to Dolby Digital and, whadaya know... the 5.1 surround sound filled the room at once (and the Yamaha's 6 surround indicator lights immediately lit up)!
So it seems the problem was an incorrect setting in the 8300 for this particular (non-HDMI receiver) hookup, and he's now able to view the video via HDMI while simultaneously hearing 5.1 surround sound via the digital optical cable (of course, if we were watching HDCP-encrypted content, this hookup would not work). Nonetheless I appreciate your help and apologize that this turned out to be a false alarm. However, it was your prior reply that got me thinking more about his hookup and the 8300 settings.
Now if only I can decide whether to prudently wait another year for HDMI 1.3, or to take the plunge now into the A2000's stunningly detailed and lifelike picture (which I admit I'm now very tempted to buy after getting the best view of it I've had to date). Or would buying now be a big mistake? I can't help but wonder if "obsolete" is perhaps a bit too strong a characterization for 1.3's improvements over 1.1 and 1.2? I just wish HDMI was designed in a way that made it relatively easy (and not prohibitively expensive) to remove the prior HDMI input/output and replace it with the latest version.
Rodger
Rodger
If you're talking about a video display, I guess I don't understand why you would want to wait another year for HDMI 1.3. On the audio side, the version of HDMI would not affect Sony's decision on what capabilities to provide in the set's HDMI connection. And from the video side, the new "deep color" capability will depend on source material being available and the display designed to take advantage of it. In my opinion, it's a bit of hype for now.
If you're considering upgrading your non-HDMI receiver, I can see where you might want to consider waiting, considering that you might be able to get more flexibility in having the new audio formats decoded in the AVR rather than the player, but you wouldn't really be missing out on any functionality with the current HDMI-equipped AVR's.
donstim makes very good points. I agree that waiting for a display that implements 1.3 is not necessary, especially if you need a new HDTV now, while waiting for an A/V receiver with 1.3 might make more sense.
I haven't seen the A2000 yet, but with all the buzz about it online, I'm working on getting one from Sony to review. Another RPTV worth considering is the Samsung HL-S5687W 56-inch DLP; I'm in the process of reviewing it now, and it looks mighty good. However, if you're sensitive to rainbows, that could be a problem for you with the Samsung. The Sony has no such problem because it's based on SXRD (LCoS) with three imagers, so no color wheel and no rainbows.
How silly of me not to think of checking the 8300's audio settings, and how smart of you to do so!
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Thanks once again donstim and Scott for your cogent advice! Initially, it sounded like 1.3's doubled bandwidth and the increased "color space" was something that promised a dramatic difference in picture quality. But if I'm understanding you correctly, that's not necessarily the case. That's a great relief to hear because I very well may buy the A2000. I mainly need to decide whether to get the 50" or the 55" (I'll be sitting ~ 10-11 feet from the screen and could likely go with either size). As long as I can use HDMI for the video and the 8300's (and DVD's) digital audio outputs, and since my current AVR is < 2 years old, I'd prefer to wait at least 2-3 years before getting an HDMI AVR (i.e, as long as the cable carriers don't implement HDCP sooner, thereby throwing a monkey wrench in that hookup scheme). I won't get a high def DVD till the prices come down substantially (and this ridiculous format battle ends), i.e., probably 3-4 years from now.
Actually, I have seen Samsung's new HL-S5687W in 2 different stores, sitting nearly next to an A2000 (only 1 other set separating them in both stores). I fully agree that it too looks truly outstanding. After watching them both for 20-30 minutes (in each store), my untrained eyes had a very difficult time telling the difference between them - they looked that close. Perhaps in this or that different scene, one or the other alternately may have looked ever-so-slightly better than the other. In the end though, I'd probably give a very thin edge to the A2000 because in a racing scene where the camera panned really fast across the track, the pixels of track's pavement seemed to break up a little bit on the HL-S5687, but not that I could see on the A2000. Otherwise, they looked pretty equally great to me.
I've been closely following the Samsung DLP lines from the very beginning i.e., since the 1st (HLM?) line. Heretofore, I thought DLP was the most promising technology. But last years SXRD emergence, at a bare minimum, either equaled, or looked a little better than Pioneer's 50" plasma (which I previously thought was the best looking set of all), and left the DLP's in its wake. But this years 1080p HLS 87 series has made the most stunningly dramatic improvement I've seen yet from them. I occasionally saw rainbows on prior years models (only in fast motion scenes), but never saw a one on this years HL-S5687. IMO, this set is currently SXRD's most formidable competition - it'really looks that awesome too.
Rodger
After reading part 3 of HDMI series (http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/index.php) on 1.3, I need some clarification. donstim said: “the new ‘deep color’ capability will depend on source material being available and the display designed to take advantage of it.” Even if there’s little-to-no ‘deep color’ material now, any guess on when there will be?
Also, the article says: “…current display technologies, such as backlit LCD displays, can display colors far beyond those described by previously existing color space standards.” Does that apply to LCoS or DLP too? If so, would they need any other changes to display future deep color source material? Even if deep color’s “a bit of hype for now,” might it become more of a reality a few years from now?
It's not that I “need a new HDTV now”, I'd just like one. I understand nothing is ‘future-proof’; I’m just trying to look as far down the road as possible. IF 1.3’s new video features will eventually result in a visibly significant improvement in overall picture quality (even if takes 3-4 years before there's 'deep color' source material), I might be willing to wait for it. Or are the video benefits of 10.2 Gbps notably less than the article seems to imply?
Rodger
I really don't know when--or if--deep color material will be produced, but if I had to guess, I'd say it won't be for several years at least. One problem is, what will displays without deep color do with that material? Content providers won't want to disenfranchise a huge base of viewers, so even if they have the capability of producing such material, I'm not sure they will.
Some LCD flat panels do exhibit a much bigger color space than NTSC or ATSC specify, which is of dubious value in my view. And LED backlighting has the potential for expanding that space even farther. The same goes for DLP RPTVs with LED or laser illumination instead of a traditional lamp. I haven't heard of any LCoS sets that will use LED or laser, but LED-illuminated DLP sets are starting to come on the market now, and Mitsubishi promises laser-illuminated sets by the end of 2007. More important than a bigger color space, these RPTVs will require no bulb replacement, offer virtually instant startup, and generate no heat.
I don't know what you're watching now, but if it's standard-def, I wouldn't wait. Do you really want to wait for years until deep color and other advantages of HDMI 1.3 become widespread? You could be enjoying the wonderful picture quality of HD now. I believe that is far more important than waiting for years for a benefit that may or may not materialize.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Question for Mr. Wilkinson, Harley, or any other HDMI Guru,
I was all but headed to a local retailer to pull the trigger on a new Sony XBR LCD flat panel when I caught wind of the whole HDMI “debate.” Can one of you with a decent understanding of the increase in bandwidth (from 1.2 to 1.3) give us a brief synopsis of how the new standard might improve on ghosting, motion blur, macro blocking, artifacts, etc. that exists in current panels (including the latest and greatest 1080p offerings). It is my understanding that these imperfections are more often related to the source material than the display device, but I am intrigued by the possibility that significantly increased frame rate(s) between TV and DVD or cable box could eliminate a lot of this. I have been doing a lot of research on the new standard, including on the official HDMI site, but this information seems to be somewhat esoteric at this stage.
Relating to some earlier recommendations in this thread, I could wait until mid-2007 to buy, but I am kind of anxious to get rid of the 240+ lb hernia maker sitting in my living room.
Any of your expert opinions would be a tremendous help!
Many thanks in advance,
Jonathan
Sorry for the delay in my reply; it's deadline time around here.
As far as I know, HDMI bandwidth has nothing to do with ghosting, motion blur, macroblocking, etc. Ghosting and motion blur is often seen in LCD panels with slow response times (over 8ms or so), and macroblocking is often caused by careless video encoding. Increasing the frame rate would not do much to eliminate these artifacts, at least not until movies and video are shot at higher frame rates, which I don't see happening any time soon.
In my view, the biggest advantage of increasing the frame rate is to allow 1080p/72 (72 frames per second) from future HD DVD or Blu-ray players so they can output each frame of the 1080/24 content on the disc three times. This also requires a display that can accept 1080p/72; at the moment, only Pioneer dsiplays can do this. Keeping the video at multiples of 24 fps eliminates all 3:2 pulldown artifacts.
The one advantage of HDMI 1.3 that I find compelling at the moment is that it can carry the new audio formats, such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, and DTS-HD Master Audio. Until we have HDMI 1.3 AVRs and controllers, these formats must be decoded in the player and sent via analog.
Of course, Deep Color is another advantage of HDMI 1.3, but as you've read in this thread, I don't think it's such a big deal until displays can reproduce the wider color space and content is produced using that space. I don't think this is going to happen any time soon, so if you're ready to take the plunge and upgrade, I say go for it.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Hey Scott,
HMDI 1.1 will carry the new audio formats, too -- via PCM after being decoded in the player. You aren't stuck with only being able to transfer the audio via athe nalog connections.
Don
Ah yes, of course. But that's only if the player does it; for example, I don't think the Samsung Blu-ray player does.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show and reporting twice a day on hot news stories and product announcements at www.avguide.com. Our daily coverage begins Wednesday, September 13.
Robert Harley
Editor-in-Chief
The Perfect Vision
The Absolute Sound
Thanks for the reply Scott. With most manufacturers rolling out new models in the coming months, it’s hard to make a decision on when to pull the trigger.
Appreciate your input!
In his reply of Sept 6 in this thread, Robert Harley said:
" I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show and reporting twice a day on hot news stories and product announcements at www.avguide.com. Our daily coverage begins Wednesday, September 13."
I read through the TPV CEDIA reports but didn't see anything on HDMI 1.3 compatibility and future HDMI 1.3 products.
Anyone?
I was covering flat panels and rear projectors at CEDIA, and I didn't see much of any news on HDMI 1.3. I suspect that Robert might have seen more in his coverage of AVRs and processors, and I think Barry Willis has done some recent research on the subject. What say you, fellas?
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
While we wait for news from the folks at Perfect Vision, I thought you'd be interested to know that in the latest issue of Sound & Vision, they report (and the Toshiba website confirms) that in December Toshiba will introduce two second generation HD DVD units. The higher end of the two, the HD-XA2 will support HDMI 1.3, apparently with Deep Color enabling 36-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 24-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification.
See http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/news/newsarticle.asp?newsid=131
Les
We did cover that particular announcement (more or less) in our online CEDIA report; see
www.avguide.com/news/2006/09/14/cedia-06-toshiba-leaps-out-of-the-box-wi...
I see that Barry Willis, who, I believe, wrote that particular item, didn't mention HDMI 1.3 in the XA2. However, he did mention the increased color depth (albeit incorrectly at 32 bits instead of 36 bits). The problem with show reporting is that there is so little time to put reports together, much less cross-check them, it's very easy to make mistakes like that. Sorry about that; we'll try harder to be more accurate in the future.
Meanwhile, I must reiterate that I'm not convinced that Deep Color is such a big deal or something that consumers should necessarily wait for. I maintain that a video display should reproduce the same color space that was used to create the content, and no content creators I know of are planning on using anything else but SMPTE C (and, hopefully, SMPTE HD) any time soon. So the value of a wider color space in the transmission interface and display is doubtful to me.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Scott,
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on the website that when you were asked to identify the most significant new video technology at CEDIA, you identified a Hitachi 42 plasma, rather than HDMI 1.3. Is that because there were no 1.3 products or because you don't attach importance to 1.3?
Also, Mr Harley wrote above in this thread that "I think we'll find out a lot more about HDMI compatibilty and future products at the Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association show next week. The entire editorial team from The Perfect Vision will be canvassing the show." I haven't seen anything reported on HDMI. Was there no buzz at all at CEDIA?
Thanks. TPV and AVGuide rock.
Les
I didn't see or hear much buzz about HDMI 1.3 products at the show, at least not in the projector and flat panel product categories. Also, you are correct that I am not so gung-ho on it in any event. It's not that I dislike it; in fact, I suspect it could help ameliorate some of the glitches that many people report when using HDMI (though I have not personally experienced many of these glitches). But I don't think it's the be-all and end-all that others seem to think it is.
For both of these reasons, I did not identify it as the most important video technology at the show.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Last week I had a lengthy conversation with someone at the HDMI group, a fellow directly involved with testing and approving manufacturers' prototypes for HDMI licenses. He said that most of the performance and interfacing problems they see are caused by misuse of the HDMI-mandated 5V source, and by lack of precision in designing and making four-layer circuit boards.
Suffice it to say that all the reported glitches with HDMI are real. Some, as with the Sony TV and Scientific Atlanta cable box mentioned in this thread, can be cured by going into the setup menu and making changes. Others are incurable design flaws. This is why installers are still running parallel analog cables with every digital line. Look for a report on this in TPV 74.
As for CEDIA, there was next to no emphasis on HDMI 1.3 at that show. CEDIA is all about what's hot for the custom install industry. As Scott Wilkinson points out above, HDMI 1.3 is really about future performance enhancements, like deep color space and 1080p/72, that may be useful and beneficial when/if they are incorporated in source materials. For the immediate future, most of the potential will lie dormant.
There's no justifiable reason to buy anything on the assumption that 1.3 will become a market force. It could be superceded by something better before it has a chance to gain a significant foothold. (Something similar happened with FireWire vs. USB 2.0.) One thing we can say with certainty: technology will march on, and everything that is now state-of-the-art will one day be obsolete.
You can't future-proof any purchase. Therefore, buy the best gear at the best price, with the options that make it really useful today.
Barry Willis
Integration Editor
The Perfect Vision
Howdy ! Just joined up....long time TPV sub....
I remember when DVI & DVI.HDCP 1st came out........there were hints about HDMI............have a question then....any hints on the next _____? (wireless maybe ??)
At present I'm enjoying my 52" Toshiba CRT HD RPTV with DVI/HDCP with digital Cable. Guess I'm outdated by both techs...but still loving HD programing
By the way.........
Happy Holidays!
Barney
Yes, I think you've got it just right...wireless HDMI is the Next Big Thing. There are several companies working on it, and I think it holds great promise. Best of all, it can be used with existing HDMI devices with the addition of outboard transmitters and receivers, which should be relatively small when they become available.
The first such system I know of will probably come from Gefen using an underlying technology from a company called Amimon. The outboard boxes might be fairly large in this case, being the first of such system to become available. Another company deep into wireless HDMI is Neosonik; see Barry Willis' report in TPV 74.
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Thanks Scott ! You da man. By the way, I live in Austin, Texas & I understand TPV has their new "audio lab" here. Any chance I might could visit it ?
Barney
You'd have to ask Audio Editor Chris Martens about that; I live in Los Angeles, so I have little to do with the audio lab.
Thanks,
Scott Wilkinson
Video Editor
The Perfect Vision
Hi,
I am new to this site, but the information being discussed is exactly what is on my mind.
I just bought myself a Samsung Hl-S5687W and a PS3. The PS3 supports HDMI 1.3, but as stated.. no tvs, receivers, etc are supporting that stuff right now.
I know there are no clear examples of what 1.3 will have over 1.2, but should I worry about waiting, or should I buy for 1.2?
I am going to be buying a receiver very soon, and I was looking at the Panasonic SA-XR700 due to its 1080p out.
Between the three things, I am disappointed that I will not be able to use HDMI 1.3, which PS3 supports.
- Will I be missing out on alot?
- And how much would you expect to see a reciever supporting HDMI 1.3 or a TV supporting HDMI 1.3 to start at pricewise? Let's say a DLP TV.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks much!
I was forwarded here from an article in The Perfect Vision about HDMI. Actually my experience with HDMI has been much worse than the article would indicate. I have spent unknown hours/days either researching HDMI products or trying to get the ones I own to play nice with each other.
My sad story started when I purchased a Denon 2807 to power a new HT that I was setting up. I am using an InFocus 7210 projector which has a native resolution of 720p. My sources are a Sony CX995V (400 disc DVD player), HD-Tivo, an Xbox 360, standard Xbox, and a Toshiba XA-1 HD-DVD player (yes I do realize the 2807 only has two HDMI inputs).
The CX995V had no issues sending video and audio through the 2807 and would upconvert to whatever resolution I requested.
The HD-Tivo on the other hand would send lovely video, but no audio through the 2807. I have three HD-Tivo's and they all preformed exactly the same. I also had DTV send me two additional HD-Tivo's so I could see if they would work. What followed was an excersise in finger pointing that would have made the Washington Politicians proud! Everyone claimed that their implementation of HDMI was correct and that the problem belonged to the "other guy."
Frustrated at several weeks of not being able to get the Tivo to operate I took the 2807 and traded it in on the then new Pioneer Elite 84TXsi.
No the Pioneer Elite used the HDMI audio from my HD-Tivo's first time and every time...... Yea I thought HDMI nirvanna!!!
Then my HD-DVD player returned from Toshiba (the first one was DOA due to a bad motherboard, but that is another long story). When I powered up the XA-1 I was excited to see video and hear audio coming through the Pioneer Elite... Yea!! However, after my initial thrill I noticed that the video looked horrible! When I checked my XA-1 I saw that it was outputting 720p... ah ha! Through my reading I knew that the current scaler in the XA-1 had "issues" with any resolution other than 1080i. So I pushed the resolution button on my XA-1 remote..., got the message that the button push had been detected and that the player would have to start over from the begining to change resolution, well that's Ok so I pushed OK and waited.... and waited.... and waited. The player was frozen and the only way to regain control was to hold the power button for 12-15 seconds and perform basicly a "hard" boot on the computer.
When I regained control the XA-1 came online again at 720p, so I ejected the disc. With the drawer open I changed the resolution to 1080i and closed the tray with no disc... the moment I pushed the close button the display changed by itself to 720p. The "no-disc" message was displayed so I changed the resolution to 1080i and opened the tray... again the XA-1 switched itself to 720p. So I changed it back to 1080i, placed a different (HD) disc in the drive and closed the drawer... you guessed it back to 720p. After the disc started to play I stopped it and changed the resolution to 1080i, pushed OK and once again the player froze. Being "somewhat" stubborn I tried this again about 10 times...
Then to trouble-shoot I selected 1080i output on my HD-Tivo, then selected the Tivo's input on the Pioneer and shazaam before my very eyes I saw the little green light on the front of the HD-Tivo jump from 1080i to 720p! Hmmm there was something smelly afoot.
So I plugged the HD-Tivo and the HD-DVD player seperately directly into the InFocus 7210 via HDMI cable to an HDMI->DVI (M1) connector. Both units played perfectly and would play whatever resolution I selected with no problems whatsoever. However, when the Elite 84 was placed in the chain the signal from each was locked to 720p. Somehow the EDID information is being trunkated such that the source is only receiving the primary display frequency when the Pioneer AVR is in the chain.
Please insert another round of professional "finger-pointing" at this juncture!
So as the XA-1 was incapable of displaying a decent image at 720p (it is better after the 2.0 firmware upgrade..., but still not as good as 1080i) I decided to bite the bullet and use the Component Out from the XA-1 and just let the Pioneer Transcode the image from analog to digital and output it over the HDMI cable to the projector.... silly me! Well it turns out that their is another "bug" hiding in the HDMI woodwork of the Pioneer Elite 84 which is that when you input an analog signal and then Transcode it out to HDMI... and that HDMI cable is connected to a DVI display device that something goes to heck in a handbasket! No matter what the resolution of the Component In signal, after it is Transcoded by the Elite 84 and sent to a DVI equipped display it is sent only at 480p! Now it does not matter what selection you have chose in the "av-parameters" section of the 84 (I have tried them all) the signal is only going out at 480p... Period!
Luckily I had run a set of Component cables to the projector also as these are what I have to use for any Component sources. If I input 1080i via Component to the Elite 84 and output it over Component to the projector it shows up as 1080i.
Pioneer's engineers did send me an email, but they claimed that they (Pineer) were doing everything correct with HDMI. This is my response: Now I freely admit that I am not as smart as you guys, but please answer me this. If several sources can display at 1080i when sent directly via HDMI->DVI to my projector with no problems whatsoever, but when the Elite 84 is placed in the chain the sources are then locked to 720p, where would you look for the problem???
The silence has been deafening from Pioneer!
So yes, I am completely torqued with this entire HDMI mess and would love to take those HollyRock Lawyers that foisted HDMI upon we the unsuspecting but trusting Home Theater Public and Hang them from the Highest Yardarm!
There are TWO theories for Successfully arguing with a Woman; Neither one Works!
I just built my home and I have put 7 HDMI 1.3 in all the walls. I have bought All Sharp TV. I cannot get any signal. I realize now that Sharp has 1.2a input.
Is there a way around this problem? If yes how.
By the way I am like the village idiot when it comes to electronics. I was sold these at futureshop and I called them and they didnt have a clue. I read a couple threads and they mention "reverse connection " What does this mean? How do you go about and install it
Any feedback would be GREATLY APPRECIATED
THANKS in advance
Chris_Stephens wrote:As a consumer I wanna upgrade. I can do that right ? WRONG...
Quite worrying so much you'll give yourself a stroke :lol: From what I understand the upgrade is software related so if your equipment is firmware upgradable then you can upgrade to 1.3 easily. Most better LCD widescreens (like the Olevias for example) are upgradable via USB. Many manufactures are already selling 1.3 compatible cables. For most people there will be nothing to worry about, and for all the others there is always places like eBay where you can unload your non-upgradable units, and then simply make sure that your new unit is upgradable. All technology progresses sooner or later. I'm sure someone in some lab is working on HDMI 1.4 right now. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be enjoying all that HDMI 1.2 can offer you right now. Just make sure that your equipment is upgradable. Life is good :D
Scott,Thanks you, your a god.Really appreciate it.