Wilson Sasha, SF Amati Anniversario, Thiel CS3.7 shootout
jtein -- Fri, 03/12/2010 - 01:02
Hello, I'll be auditioning these three next week although at different dealers. I'll be listening to the Thiel CS3.7 driven by Parasound JC2 pre/JC1 power amps at one dealer.
As for the Wilson Sasha and the SF Amati Anniversario, it'll be a head-to-head comparison done at another dealer. They will be driven by ARC Ref pre/power amps.
What are your thoughts on these? What are the sonic characteristics of these 3 loudspeakers? Anything I should be on the look out for? I will be using the Avantgarde/SET setup as my benchmark because they have made the biggest impression on me thus far. Thanks guys.
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IMHO, the CS3.7 will be seriously outclassed by both the Sasha and Amati. And I expect the Sasha to edge ahead of the Amati in top-to-bottom coherence, tonal neutrality and extension.
I'm working on a review at the moment of the Sasha. I can say that the Sasha is a significantly better speaker than the WATT/Puppy 7, and in many ways, better than the MAXX 2. It is rich in tone color and has a sense of ease, yet it's highly detailed and resolving at the same time (a nice combination).
I'll be interested to hear the results of your auditioning.
Robert, Curious aobout your thoughts on Sasha vs Sonus Faber Stradivari... I currently have B&W 800Ds, HTM1D, 802Ns as a theatre / 2CH system and am thinking about a separate 2Ch system in another room. My 2Ch consists of ARC Ref5, LAMM M1.2s, EMM LABS TDS1/DAC2 that I would move to the new system. Thanks!
Thanks Andy and Robert for the heads-up. Although I'm bit confused by the fact that Andy mentioned about Sasha's tonal neutrality and Robert's statement that it's rich in tone color.
Robert, how I wish you could accompany me to the auditions. As you may be aware from my other threads, I'm still relatively new in the audiophile world so my ears aren't that trained. I've almost finished reading your "Introductory Guide to High Performance Audio Systems" and found it quite helpful. Last week, I home-demo'ed a pair of Avantgarde Uno G2. I drew up a checklist of the different kind of sound characterictics for the treble, midrange, bass, soundstage, dynamics and musicality as listed by you in your book and used it as I listened to the Avantgarde. After a while I gave up because I don't know whether what I heard is considered etched or sweet, for example. So I decided to put down my checklist and instead see how well I could connect with the music.
So Robert, should I therefore listen to the Amati, Sasha and Thiel and just see whether I could get into the music instead of using my checklist? I suspect there won't be huge differences between these 3 very good speakers but rather the differences would be subtle. Since my ears are not so trained to be sensitive to these subtle differences, I'm not so sure I should embark on a critical listening exercise as spelled out in Chapter 4 of your book. Any tips?
Dude,
Let me let you in on a little secret: It don't matter what RH likes or JV likes or what HP likes. (By the way, they all like different things.) It's about what YOU like. Forget about the midrange, the soundstage, imaging, bloom, tone color, dynamics, micro dynamics, dark, bright, BS, BS, BS, etc. These audiophile terms don't mean jack.... Trust me, dude, you don't want to go there. Critical listening is for losers. Get out there and listen to MUSIC on as many different speakers as there are around you. Put your own music on. The purpose of the system is to convey emotions. You will know the equipment is right if it makes you dance, cry, jump around, or tap your foot...
The problem is that I don't know what I like! So having someone like RH to assist me in discovering what I like would definitely prove beneficial.
Only you know what you like. No one can tell you that. In fact, having someone like RH in the room might be detrimental as you could subconsciously try to hear what he hears or like what he likes. You are the one spending the money and you are the one who will live with the equipment. RH's and indeed any other journalist's opinion should be informative, but never the deciding factor in your purchase decision.
jtein - Perhaps now, you can be more appreciative of some of the information you got on your first posting here (V2 what is next…). Without any objective data, you are shooting in the dark. Welcome to high-end audio. In any case if you are truly seeking knowledge, you should try and read Floyd Toole book. At least you get a leg to stand on and begin to understand what it is you are hearing.
You will know what you like when you hear it. To me, the nicest sounding speakers are from Sonus Faber, nice and warm. I own Thiel's, completely the opposite, but when I bought my speakers I could not afford the SF (at the time, I was looking at SF Grand Piano's; about 6 years ago). I still have my Thiel's and love them. But I stil desire the SF's!!
In the end, you just need to listen to all the speakers you can, don't worry so much about price, this hobby can get crazy out of hand expensive, but there are good speakers in every price range. RH does this stuff for a living, so his ears are much more critical in what they hear than most people.. as a matter of fact, he is looking to hear certain things. Most people just listen to the music. The difference is that "good"speakers/ systems let you hear "everything"
"The difference is that "good"speakers/ systems let you hear "everything" "
This could be a difference of opinion, but to me, as an owner of electrostats, I hear everything in the recording/ equipment chain. The great speakers and systems get out of the way -- so than the human musicians can enter the listening room. To me, the best systems disappear.
Good point. I recently wanted to audition the Wilson Audio Sofia. The dealer told me his audition pair was on loan to a customer for the last 2 months. When I asked why such a long loan he said, 'he's trying to convince himself that he likes them." Further saying, "he's read the reviews, doesn't really like them, but thinks he should based on those reviews and Wilson Audio's high regard in the hi end mags.
Almost, but not quite. You are listening to reproductions of performances, colored by everything in the recording chain, from the microphones, to the snakes to the recording devices used. Get a reference...whatever it is. Find a system that sounds like the reference (relates to your ears) Listen at length. If the system doesn't annoy you, then try for a home audition. And no matter WHAT someone tells you, if you don't hear it, DON'T invest.
Be sure you get support as far as setup and service after the sale. And if you don't like the people, no matter how much you like the gear, don't give them your money, as they may not be in it for the long term.
This is probably the best answer to a speaker question I have ever heard! You may hear a $100,000 system and think it sounds great then hear a $20,000 system and think it sounds better. I agree with you 100%!
I see that Andy and RH are using different sets of speaker as reference in their comparison / evaluation of Sasha's sound, no? So nothing confusing about that.
As I recommend in my book, your auditioning should include both critical listening for specific sonic criteria along with forgetting about the sound and judging how much you're enjoying the music. "New_SL_Owner" has a very good point regarding forgetting about the sound and seeing how you respond to the music, but completely rejecting critical listening is fraught with peril. It's a recipe for ending up with a speaker whose colorations become more and more annoying the longer you listen. The time to discover a speaker's colorations is in the dealer's showroom, not after you've set up the speaker in your house. Only critical listening will allow you to identify these colorations.
Look, man, with all due respect to RH, every piece of equipment is colored... That's why they don't all sound the same. No matter how hard you try, your system is not going to sound like Jazz at Lincoln ctr or an evening at the Viennese opera. Even there it's colored by the wall interactions depending on where you sit... Just accept the bad news....
Now it's easy for me - I got the Sound labs. I haven't heard anything under $80K that comes close. They do everything right. For me. When I listen, I listen to music. I don't focus on the bass or the treble or the stage. They do it all so I can listen to the music. Of course I can start nit picking. Maybe someone's speaker is more dynamic. Maybe RH's wilsons or big rockports have more weight and slam. But when I am rocking out to Zeppelin, I don't think of RH or his system. As I said, critical listening is for losers. If you don't believe me, check the stuff on sale audiogon. Not a whole lot of happy people there... that;s what critical listening does to you. People listening to music in their car enjoy their car stereo than the critical listeners. Sad....But I warned you...
Don't despair, Dude.... On the positive side, all the stuff you are talking about has been blessed by RH, JV, AS, and the other experts at TAS. Every speaker you mentioned is "good". The question is: is it GREAT FOR YOU ? My advice still holds for you dude. Go out there and listen to all kinds of systems: electrostats, planars, cones, horns. Whatever moves you emotionally, and you will know! - is what you like. It's kind of like to talking to that special girl or reading that special book. Your mind is very special - it will subconciously evaluate all of the "colorations", sum them up, and give you an answer. You will know, you will feel uplifted. RH does have a point - take your time.... come back to the dealer many times, put it in your home, etc. to make sure it was not just a mood of the moment or some significant event in your life that's enhancing those emotions.
good trip, dude!
So here's what I've gathered from my auditions. First, the Thiel CS3.7 + Parasound JC1/JC2 setup. I'm still not familiar with hifi terminology so I'll just describe what I heard from the tracks I put on. Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini sounded fluid and effortless, something I don't get from my current system nor from the Avantgardes. The piano played by Ashkenazy was sounded well defined and weighty which provided the anchor amidst the strings and all the other instruments. In the "Girl From Ipanema" by Getz/Gilberto, the first few opening notes by Gilberto was very well resolved and I heard things for the first time I didn't hear from my current system nor from my Avantgarde audition. Overall, it was quite an enjoyable audition.
As for the Sasha and Amati audition at another dealer, it was an exhausting affair. I only managed to listen to 2 tracks. The dealer kept interrupting and pausing the track midway to do his tweaking and tuning of the various audio components so as to demonstrate to me how just putting something on top the cdp or under the equipment rack would alter the sound. I must have heard the same track about 20 times. It's a favourite track but I'm sick of it now. A very confusing experience for me. So that's it for the moment.
The latter dealer is an idiot. I wouldn't do business with him even if he gave a seemingly good deal. When you test drive a car, would any legit dealer start waxing and vacuuming it after the first mile? Besides all that stuff is really BS, he's just testing you to see how far he can deceive you to think that there's actually some difference there.
In my first audio life I tried all that magic stuff with mixed feelings. Then I got really busy for 10 years with no time to tweak anything and just bought a turn key system from a reputable dealer. No tweaks whatsoever but guess what, it sounded way better than anything I'd had before albeit at a price. In fact, it sounded so good that I realized all those tweaks were just a total waste money. The only exception I'd make is if you have a turntable, there some isolation/vibration management/ record clamping can make a huge difference.
PS. If the sound of a cdp is improved by putting something like a simple puck on top of it, it proves only one thing: The designer of the cdp is a moron. :-)
"As for the Sasha and Amati audition at another dealer, it was an exhausting affair. I only managed to listen to 2 tracks. The dealer kept interrupting and pausing the track midway to do his tweaking and tuning of the various audio components so as to demonstrate to me how just putting something on top the cdp or under the equipment rack would alter the sound. I must have heard the same track about 20 times. It's a favourite track but I'm sick of it now. A very confusing experience for me."
Uh Oh!!! I keep trying warn you, man.... How's listening to the Girl from Ipanema 20 times in a row over 2 hours supposed to help you enjoy the music? Nest time you run into a dumb bastard like that tell him you already got the pitchforks from Kansas, the marbles and beads from New orlieans, and the bone china that was blessed by the Buddhist priest is already spread around the room... That your vooodoo outvoodoos his voodoo. Politely tell him that he is killing your buzz and tell him to leave the room.
When you listen to MUSIC your confusion will go away...Trust your self!
Your expierence with the dealer that kept changing the set up says something about that dealer. Fortunitely speakers don't need service so a goffy dealer isn't that big a deal!.
But using the ARC vs Parasound will make a BIG difference, perhaps a more important difference than the speakers. These are all nice speakers. They each have a flavor....but less flavor than the amps. You have said nothing about your electronics. How "good" are they. Do you intend to change them. How big is your room, etc. Is the dealer asking these questions? Well, enjoy the music. PH
If the Avantgarde was set up right with good amps, my guess is that you will find the other speakers boring if not outright dead. Aside from some problems with their bass, the Avantgardes are some of the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. At times they can really fool you that you're hearing live music. Very few speakers can do that at any price.
I'd also note that the Halo's are much better than the ARC's: resolution, transient response and BASS. Consider that in your comparison as well.
The Avantgardes were indeed exhilarating and resolving. The vocals were really lifelike and intimate and you feel like the singer is singing just to you and for you! But I found the soundstage rather constricted. Various instruments seem to be "accumulated" in the middle. The overall perspective is like you're sitting on the stage or the front row. So I felt like I have to cock my head up - imagine yourself at the front row of a MJ concert. Like I said, it's very exhilarating but fatigue can set in rather quickly.
Yep, I found that the Halo JC1/JC2 sounded much more involving than the ARC for me.
I'm sure you noticed that I'm a pretty die hard Avalon guy so no more about them. That said, given the speakers on your list I would strongly recommend that you also audition the big Revel (Salon 2 or something) and the ML CLX. I bet both of those would rule with the Halo amps.
Dear sir,
After reading your comments, I find myself as confused as you must be. If time is on your side, then what's the hurry? If your ears can't tell you what to choose, then listen to them, perhaps now is not the right time. Auditioning in your own home would be preferable as well as dealing with salesmen that do not pressure. There's always that "I want it now" voice, that conflicts with some semblance of the absolute sound, but just like choosing a mate, compatibility is a must. So go on as many dates as you need to without forcing yourself to commit until your ready.
Robert, do you find the Sashas to be less forward in the lower treble region compared to the Sophia 2s? My Sophia 2's often sound a bit edgy in this region and I'm hoping the Sashas are smoother.
The Sasha is definitely richer sounding in the upper-midrange, and has better integration between the midrange and treble.
I would be curious how the Sasha compares to the new Sophia 3s ??
Wilson Audio are extremely overpriced and not very attractive design-wise products. Not so musical as the new Focals and in the modest opinion of the author of this note, overall below Meridian DSP 8000 as far as focus, neutrality, depth and precision ... Top of the line Martin Logan is good musical choice. Some B&W also! Everything in this line of thoughts is subjective and matter of taste, right! Well ... after 36 years of listening and training ears and brain I am right!
Back in the days of yesteryear, as a dealer, I would take speakers into the home of a prospective buyer, so that he or she could hear them in the actual room they'd end up in. What a concept!
But then, that seems too simple for most of us--why not reward any dealer who suggests an in home audition with your business, if he has the product which sounds best of course.
Good luck.
( Robert, it's good to see your face again after many years. (Remember Jim's press conference in Vegas, when he introduced the THIEL CS2.3's?)
Larry Staples