Why use a music server instead of a standard PC?
discman -- Thu, 03/06/2008 - 08:34
Isn't a PC cheaper? Can't I just buy software to do what I need to?
Isn't a PC cheaper? Can't I just buy software to do what I need to?
Not an expert, but I've been demo'ing some stuff recently.
Had a demo with the Soolos (sp ?) system. The user interface was superb, but the sound through its own DAC was soso. Much better to be used with someone else's (good) DAC. That system going through a Spectral DAC was way better than just the Soolos system.
Another approach is Linn's: they provide the DAC and some rudimentary software, you provide the computer / hard discs. Unfortunately, the user interface and elegance does not compare to the Soolos one, but you can probably get more bang for your buck and have way more options in terms of hardware. I suspect it would also take much more work to get that running, than an integrated system such as the Soolos.
I think this kind of tech is in its infancy and it's only a matter of time before superb software gets produced that will allow you to use any hardware you want and any DAC you want. The Linn DAC has an ethernet port in it to hook up with the hardware, and likely future DACs will have that too.
I use a MacMini (160GB) with an external 500GB HDD and use iTunes recording in either Apple Lossless or wav formats. I can then also connect and stream from any other computer in the house too. I use the Toslink output from the MacMini to connect to an Altmann DAC.
The Mac is quiet, it also has upgradeable software, I can add larger HDDs when I run out of space, it plays DVDs too, HD TV with an added Elgato USB TV card.
Great system, not quite as good as my YBA used as a CD transport through the DAC but excellent with uncompressed files and much cheaper and versatile that a dedicated music server.
regards
Michael
Do you have the mac mini as part of your audio system (ie physical part of it)? If not, how do you get the signal from the DAC to the audio system? Or is this for desktop audio?
discman wrote:Do you have the mac mini as part of your audio system (ie physical part of it)? If not, how do you get the signal from the DAC to the audio system? Or is this for desktop audio?
yes, the DAC is plugged into my JuicyMusic Peach pre-amp, so the macMini is a media centre for CD/DVDs and digitally downloaded music too. it made little sense to me to buy a dedicated unit that I had to load from CDs rather tan straight from the web. I download quite a bit from Magnatune - great quality wavs.
regards
Michael
In this application I can see the importance of quiet components. So, when you say the Mac Mini is "quiet" do you mean low noise for a component with a fan or do you mean "silent"?
discman wrote:In this application I can see the importance of quiet components. So, when you say the Mac Mini is "quiet" do you mean low noise for a component with a fan or do you mean "silent"?
I mean both - it has low noise for a component with a fan AND I can't hear it - it's not like your garden variety PC fan that sounds like a tumble dryer!
regards
Michael
The user interface of the better turnkey servers (Sooloos, Qsonix) is consdierable better than that of a do-it-yourself PC-based server.
PS Audio is working on an interesting new product that promises to deliver better sound than anything currently available, expandable storage specified and added by the user, and an outstanding user interface. The Memory Transport will cost about $1650, to which you add your own drives. I saw a 1TB drive at Costco today for $229.
Watch for a full report when the product becomes available. In the meantime, look for Steven Stone's report on hard-disk music storage and acquisition in TAS 184, and his feature on turning a Mac into a music server in Issue 185. His report in 184 includes a review of Apple TV.
Robert Harley
i just can't see spending all the $$$ for sooloos or qsonix when you get a quality interface from itunes along with the functionality of a computer that can do more. sure the sooloos interface is better than itunes, but for how i use the interface along with controlling itunes remotely from my ipod touch, it is hard to beat. i get a graphical interface using my ipod touch. i can control which rooms receive the music, which artist, song, playlist, etc.. all from the touch.
also, these expensive players sound just so-so when hooking up directly to a preamp. you need to use an external dacto do justice to the sound. i have had a few people reverse their decision on buying a qsonix setup in favor with going with a setup like mine. the cost savings was over $3800 and they get more functionality by using a common centralized server.
most people skip on buying a jitter reduction device when going from a music source to an external dac, especially going from a music server. there is a dramatic improvement by inserting these devices between the source and the dac.
Well I use Sooloos with an external DAC (EMM Labs DCC2). The user interface can't be beat, a PC doesn;t have terabyte capacity (I have more than 2000 CDs in storage all in lossless of course), and due the sep screen and interface it invites usage from everyone in the family and guests.
I have to agree with Henryhk; the Sooloos user interface is worth the price of admission. It is completely intuitive, non-technical, and as Henryhk observered, encourages others in the home to access and listen to music.
pc's and macs can support many terabytes of data. you can pick up a Buffalo NAS that is 4 terabytes for < $2k.
my point is this: are you going to have a sooloos screen in every room of the house? if not, how are you going to interface with it from another location? i saw the pics in the latest review using an ipod touch with a sooloos and it didn't look that graphical. pretty basic actually.
You really need to have hands-on experience with Sooloos or Qsonix to appreciate what they do. It's not just the graphic presentation, but the sophisticated searching and grouping functions that take place in the background. It anticipates, based on your browsing, what you're in the mood to listen to and presents to you music you might want to hear from among your huge library.
Multi room capability is offered by Sooloos though I dont use it....they have a remote control with a small screen as an option. Also not sure but with a PC based solution can you say did what did last night. Listening to Paul Simon's 50 ways to leave your lover, the beg part where Steve Gadd lays down a great groove, i type up Steve Gadd on my Sooloos and automatically get every track he has played in my library. If that ain't cool, I don't know what is. For someone like me who has a large library its so convenient that I am seriously considering doing away with disc listening. Yes I do think (Robert Harley may differ given his article) that when I listen via EMM Labs CDSD - EMM Labs DCC2 vs Sooloos to DCC2, the former is bit better but nowhere enough to compensate for sheer joy and functionality as above (& more) of the latter....I still will buy CDs to put in storage for the Sooloos but the transport may be on its way out....the only reason I retain it now is for SACDs.....and that format is going through a slow death it seams, however unfortunate.
The artist-search function henryhk mentions is an immensely useful tool for exploring your music library. The point is that the user interface isn't just for convenience; it fundamentally changes the way you interact with your music.
One more thing, henryhk: you mentioned Steve Gadd. My favorite work of his is on the Chick Corea album Friends. It's an acoustic quartet album with Joe Farrell and Eddie Gomez. Gadd's playing is amazing (as is everyone else on the record).
Indeed, have that album as well!
Everyone seems to have gone a bit off point here...at least the point I was considering when I checked out the thread.
So then: is there any SONIC reason to spend mega-thousands on a sooloos or Qsonix with all the pretty pictures and stuff (plus more for a decent DAC) instead of making do with a laptop, an external hard drive and a good USB DAC (maybe a really good one with the money you save).
I mean, user interface be dammned. I'm here to listen to stuff, not look at it. I'm perfectly happy with foobar. All my music is right there in front of me. I can select any combination of albums and tracks that I want with a couple taps and I'm away. And it was free. So's Exact Audio Copy, which is great for ripping vinyl as well as CDs. I already had a computer anyway, so the only real expense is the hard drive and the DAC. With HDs so cheap you can almost think of the DAC as being the only real expense, and if you really want to spend money do it on the rest of your system, or even better--more music.
So, back to the original question, please: "Why use a music server instead of a standard PC?" From a strictly sonic standpoint, please. Bugger the ergonomics. If bits is indeed bits and the PC is delivering the same bits to the DAC as the fancy server would, why should it make a difference?
David Clark
To listen to stuff, you have to be able to FIND stuff, which is something that's far easier on a dedicated server than a home-brew PC.
If you want buggered ergonomics by all means use a home-brew PC...as a byproduct you'll get a new hobby- making your music server PC work AND continually upgrading and tweaking your software and hardware. I guarantee you'll have hours, days, weeks, even, of fun.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Thanks for responding, Steven.
All due respect, though, the question remains: If we hook up a sooloos and my laptop to the same DAC, will they sound any different? Is there any reason why they should? You've latched right on to the user interface thing again. Let's please put that aside for a moment and talk about what should really matter the most: the sound.
Finding music on my home-brew setup is not a problem at all. I can be listening to anything I want in a matter of seconds. My whole collection is right there in front of me, organized any way I like: by artist, album, genre, even label or year of release if I want. If I want to look at the cover, I can pick it up and look at it...or scan or download it and bring it up on the screen. Or use iTunes and coverflow (I just find I like foobar a lot better). I think it was you who wrote it best: "Spend more time listening to music and less time looking for it." (Forgive me if I'm thinking of another writer). My setup lets me do exactly that., from right here on this couch. And as for constantly frigging with it, that's not a major problem, either. Anything that does go wrong I've learned to be able to fix pretty quickly. It's really not an issue.
So putting aside the ergonomics, buggered or otherwise, is there any reason a dedicated server would sound better? I'm sure I'm not alone in balking at the idea of spending 6 or 7, 10 or 12 thousand dollars on something that--undeniable cool factor aside--isn't going to make my system sound any better. That's a lot of money I could be spending on my amp or speakers, or again, more music.
Thanks again for your interest in this discussion.
If you configure a PC for optimum sound with state of the art hardware andsoftware there is no reason why it won't sound as good as a dedicated music server, because it is, in fact, a dedicated music server.
The problem for most people is the learning curve to assemble, configure and test such a system will take them a good deal of time to acquire the expertise to accomplish this successfully. Time equals money. Some music lovers with sufficient means would rather get a turnkey system that someone else has put together.
But if you have the time and intellectual resources to assemble your own media server PC there's ne reason its sonic performance can't be indistiquishable from the turnkey systems.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Thanks for your response, Steven. And very encouraging it is, too.
I hate to fall back on the old car/car magazine audio/audio magazine analogy (people get all in a state when TAS reviews $180,000 speakers, but they lap up CarAndDriver's rantings about the latest Ferrari or Lambourghini and get all ho-hum when they review a Focus), but maybe it fits.
It's track day for your car club and the guy with the nicely turned out Civic (money and attention in the right places, like tires and suspension and remapping the electronics--no silly wings) laps just as fast as the guy in his new Porsche. We'll assume it's a fairly tight track. Porsche guy may enjoy it more on any number of different levels (and may feel better about himself doing it--and that's OK), but ultimately it's the lap times that count. Civic guy has had to do a lot of work on his car, and be careful to spend money on the right mods. But at the end of the day he knows how fast it is, and that makes him feel better about himself. And that's really OK. Then they have a beer together and agree to trade cars for a couple laps next time.
Or maybe not. Then again, from my experience the car guy world is refreshingly free of the "my way is better and you're a deaf idiot" vitriol that seems to have come to infest the audio guy (yes, guy--sadly we know it's true) world.
We should all just enjoy ourselves, and thank you, Steven, for your efforts in helping us understand we can all do that without having to buy Porsches.
I don't think it's just the snazzy looks and user-interface. Most people will have real trouble putting the bits together to make a decent music server out of PC boxes, if they ever manage. For the technically minded, doing so, is a valid option. For the rest, a packaged server system is the answer, and the more plug-and-play, the better.
Hopefully, some enterprising individual will come up with a snazzy software and some simple instructions as in a shopping list of parts and how they fit together. The he'll figure out that he can make much much more money, by putting a different cover on the boxes and naming them Soloos or Qsonix or whatever :)
Honestly, people, it's just not that hard. I'm 53 years old and I hate computers and I managed. It's just a bunch of clicking on boxes and stuff:
Download EAC. Find or make the appropriate folder and tell it to send your music there when you rip a CD. Tell it you want FLAC. You can organize your tunes into album and artist folders inside the main one if you want. I do, but I don't think you have to.
Download foobar2000 and tell it where you put your music so it can find it. Every time you rip a disc with EAC, it'll just show up in foobar pretty as you please, all organized by artist, album and tracks. If you want the albums in chronological order just click on "properties" and stick the year of release on the front of the album title.
Download ASIO4ALL and tell foobar that's what you want to use. Or maybe kernel streaming will work for you. Didn't for me, but I got the impression ASIO does the same thing, which is apparently desirable.
Plug in the USB DAC of your choice, plug that into your preamp and you're in business. Later, when you run out of room on your hard drive, get another one and move your music to it. Just make sure you tell foobar it's in a new place now.
I know this will come across as a ridiculous oversimplification, but really that's all there is to it, as far as I can tell. And I stress again: I am an Old Fart. Going to my first rock concert cost me 8 bucks, and I still have and listen to LPs I bought when the Beatles were still together. If I can do it, anyone can. I managed to connect the dots through a combination of the fact that the software really kind of guides you along, and applying what I call the "frig with it until something works" method. Alternately, "if it looks like the right thing to click on, maybe it is".
The best thing is you can do everything right up to the DAC part for free. Find out if you're up to it without spending a single cent. You can make sure music actually comes out of it using the internal speakers on your laptop or the plastic things that came with your desktop. If you're satisfied you're on the right track then you can introduce your server to your proper stereo. If you're still not sure, get a Behringer UCA202 USB interface for 30 bucks online and try that. I know, cheapest thing on the market...but God help me, it doesn't sound half bad. At first I was just looking for something to try ripping vinyl with, and it was the only thing I could find that didn't have more than I needed, since I already have a pretty good phono stage. It works a treat with EAC's wave recorder and editor. Just edit and name the tracks, ask foobar to convert them to FLAC and your vinyl shows up in the library just the same as CDs do. Plus you can convert it back to .wav files and burn a hard copy to a CD-R. Or do that before you convert, or not at all. Whatever.
Maybe it's not perfect but it works and surprisingly well. Not sure my going-on-20-years-old Adcom CD player doesn't still sound better, but it's a closer-run thing than I might have expected. I know--I should drag myself kicking and screaming into the nineties. Hopefully it'll be a different story when my HRT music streamer arrives. Thing is, when I look at the huge stacks of CDs I really should file properly, then at my right index finger, the attractions of computer audio snap into focus pretty quickly.
Other thing is, the software is all free and the hardware can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be. Obviously you already have a computer so you really only need to worry about the DAC and maybe a hard drive--but as I said, you can get your feet wet without spending anything at all.
And honestly, it's been kind of fun so far--and I'm listening to more music--and isn't that what this is supposed to be all about? I'd like to hope that SS and the rest of you aren't laughing yourselves silly over this. ("Alert the media: geezer claims victory in computer audio battle!") I'll take comfort in the fact that I was there when Roger Waters spat on that guy, and I'll bet you weren't. Just thought I'd share.
Does seeing Led Zeppelin's first US concert qualify me for geezerdom?
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Um, only so much that I grovel at your wrinkled, yellowing-toenailed feet. Which reminds me of the time a drunk teenage girl barfed on my (sadly, bare) feet at a Stones concert in Buffalo in 1975. Vodka, I think.
You seem much younger in print. That'll learn me.
I AM younger in print :)
I think I was maybe 16 when I saw Led Zep - it was before their first album had been released. They were merely Jimi Page's new band. The bill at the Filmore East in NYC also had Iron Butterfly and Blue Cheer. IB and BC were so loud through their M\arshall amps that you couldn't hear any vocals through the house PA. I used earplugs even back then. In comparison Led Zep were subdued, volume-wize. Jimi Page was using a pair of Rickenbacker amps and a battered old telecaster - pre Les Pauls and Marshalls.
Led Zep opened their set on a black unlit stage with "Dazed and Confused" - the guitar sound sorta floated "like a big bird" in the words of Clockwork Oranges' protagonist, through the hall.
The only moment to rival that was when Traffic opened their live show at the Filmore with "Dear Mr Fantasy."
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Bolshy Great Yarblockoes, what a story.
Got nothing to rival that, but I do feel compelled to mention Pink Floyd, Cleveland, June 1977. They did all of "Animals", all of "Wish You Were Here", and about half of "Dark Side of the Moon". The show--lights, animations, droids, balloons, little parachute sheep fired into the air above us, and then fireworks--was spectacular. And a perfect complement to the music--not a distraction. It was so amazing we spent 6 hours driving to Montreal for the next show and the gob that spawned "The Wall". People speak of it reverently, but it wasn't as good.
isn't dc23's comment on the issue being overlooked. the techniques of ripping and storing are an interface issue. I don't see what other hardware a computer needs to deliver 1 and 0 to a DAC other than a good USB (or a bad one for that matter) that makes it any different than a Sooloos. am i missing something on the hardware side? does the Sooloos do more (technically) than a computer by delivering a digital signal from a file than a computer would?
I'd have to say I agree fully with Steven - yes, you can use your own PC and free software, but the learning curve is big, and the convenience factor is much reduced. This is quite significant, as everyone I know who has gone over to a Logitech, Soolos, etc comments on the convenience being the outstanding result.
The most common response I've heard is that "I listen to much more of my collection now, and I've listened to tracks that I hadn't played for years".
I put my collection on "Random Play" - it's fun. And if I'm in the mood I can limit the Random play to only Rock/Pop records, for example. Frequently a tune comes up and makes me think of another tune - and I can just immediately call it up on my remote and listen to it if I wish.
That kind of thing is hard to do on a self built system, unless you normally listen at arms reach to your music server.
I've also got multi-room synch.
But if you're serious about building your own music server to save money, invest time in (a) figuring out how to set it up for the best (bit perfect) playback; and (b) deciding what your user interface will be. Is there software your can use with a remote, or configure to work with an iPhone/iPod or some other device? Or consider a touch screen, which may allow your to scroll through your software player on screen and easily choose tracks.
And yes, a dedicated notebook with a really good USB device (like the Empircal Audio or Benchmark models) will sound first rate and give you a fair level of convenience. It can even be done successfully with a netbook.
Vortex box:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VSY66O/ref=nosim?tag=vort-20&linkCode=sb1&c...
for about $350, get a Linux based PC already setup with free automatic ripping software and ready to work with Squeezebox, iTunes, Sonos, WMP, XBMC.
Works with Logitech devices automatically. If you don't want the computer, the software is free for install on your own PC.
Hi All,
The car analogy is an interesting one. Many years ago (I could have attended the first LZ concert but was not so fortunate) I did some street racing in a turbo charged Toyota Corolla. It was what we called a sleeper; an innocuous looking car with far more potential than its appearance suggested. It had upgraded tires, brakes, suspension and of course, motor. It was much quicker than the turbo Saabs and 5.0 Mustangs of the time, especially at the mountain altitudes where I live. It was great fun to ambush the unwary. That said, it was still a 1973 Toyota Corolla. It was noisy, bumpy, handled like it was hinged in the middle, had limited range from its 10 gallon tank and became alarmingly unstable at any speed above 70 mph. We had taken a mild mannered car that did very little wrong and made it into a manic little car that did very little right. By comparison, the turbo Saab was not as quick, but it was comfortable, quiet, secure and actually turned and stopped (at least until the transmission grenaded, but thats another analogy).
A PC based solution might sound as good as the Soolos, but the UI isn't nearly as refined. It isn't nearly as pleasurable to actually use. To Robert Harley's point, a good UI (or even the marginal UI of my Transporter-based system) may not change the way you hear your music, but it really does change the way you listen to your music. As with all things audio and automotive, speed is money and the question is how fast you want to go. One final note. Based on some reading I did in a recent issue of TAS, getting high quality sound out of a PC is non-trivial. The USB port is apparantly not a good option and good sound cards are scarce and expensive.
Hi-
Not to insult any of the professionals who monitor these posts, but the recent article in TAS denigrating USB was way off base. Read the comments that have been added to the article since its publication and you will see why.
USB can give very high quality sound if you know how to set up your PC and use the right USB devices (such as Empircal Audio Off Ramp/DACs or Benchmark products).
Dirt Cheep DIY Music Server
I have assembled an inexpensive computer based music server with minimal $$ outlay and minimal learning curve. The only hardware (besides the computer) is a small USB based box complete with USB cord. It is made by Edirol (Roland) (UA-1EX), cost about $110 (Can$), and will play back or record from digital or analogue sources at up to 24 bit / 96 kHz. Input Output is by RCA's (or optical link) to the pre-amp. It comes with its own drivers for Vista / XP etc. and sounds "decent". For software, download MediaMonkey for free, to play high res FLAC files. This was sourced from my local store that sells instruments and computer based hardware.
The only problem faced so far is finding high res music. HD Tracks looks like the place to go and offered some sample files ....... but still limits download purchases to the USA only. Seems strange for an internet based buisness to turn away customers from the rest of the world??
Neil D.
Hi-
You can be outside the USA and download from HDtracks. You need to give them a US address (say of a friend or relative) when you sign up, but they aren't monitoring IP's or anything like that - they don't block downloads outside the US.
DAC Recommendation
If you are looking for a superior DAC I can high recommend the Altmann DAC
See the Mother-Of-Tone website.
Not inexpensive but the sound is sublime. I am running lossless WAV files on a PC server networked
through a SqueezeBox and an Outlaw RR2150 amp - Triangle Naia speakers.
... and the scary thing is I can still improve the sound !!
Rjs
I use a MacBook with iTunes/Songbird connected by USB to the Neuhaus Labs T-2 vacuum tube amp with built in DAC. This integrated amp also has toslink so I can connect to Apple Airport Express and stream wifi throughout my house. The stream does not have the quality of USB connected to my MAC but makes it easy to listen to music anywhere. Using Definitive STS's they sound great. Use my iphone to control the play list its awesome.
I am new to this discussion, but confess to being puzzled as to why it is considered difficult to set up a computer-based system. In my case, I use an iMac and an external hard drive (backed up!) to which I have ripped about 500 CD's using iTunes with Apple lossless. Logitech's SqueezeCenter software is installed on my iMac, and I use a Squeezebox 3 to which I stream wirelessly. Up to this point, the total investment is under $500 for the extra hard drive and the Squeezebox. As it happens, my Musical Fidelity preamp has digital inputs and a very good DAC, so the Squeezebox digital output goes into that. That brings things to as near CD quality as my 79 year old ears can discern.
Oh -- and I do use iPeng on an iPod Touch as a remote -- both this, and my SqueezeCenter computer interface give me extraordinary ease in selecting, browsing, searching., etc. What am I missing?
You're not really missing anything.
Some who are after the absolute best sound try to obtain "bit-perfect" ripping and playback, or something very close to it.. Eliminating (or almost eliminating) jitter does take some specialized knowledge, fiddling, and possibly extra hardware/software. The SB3 also doesn't have native 24/96 playback (it downsamples hi-res to 24/48) for those that want that.
The Soolos also has a better UI than Squeezebox, as most see it. The question is whether the difference is worth the large price differential.
But if you're happy with your setup, then you're not missing anything.
I have set up a MacBook with iTunes and Songbird (1 TB firewire drive and backups). The MB connects via Toslink to a KECES DA-131 DAC (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64406.0). I found the DAC on e-bay made by David Wei in Taiwan. With a CD ripped to the MB as a lossless file, I can't tell the difference in A-B tests playing it through my Marantz SA8001CD player (of course I too am old enough to have seen a few 60's icons- Jim Morrison, Iron Butterfly, Stones, though nothing as exciting as LZ opening with Dazed and Confused), so perhaps my ears aren't what they used to be. iTunes may be flawed, but using the column view with artist, album, song etc, I can find everything quickly. The new genius feature makes playlists from my library with 25-100 songs. I'm getting much more out of my library now. The Macbook is superior to the mini IMO: no requirement for a separate screen and keyboard. Since its 2 GHz MP just loafs along, it never starts up its fan and it's dead quiet. It is an interface with which I'm intimately familiar, and I can upgrade the software for a long time. I can directly download from HD Tracks or Linn or Naim. The HD Tracks 96/24 Flac files sound fabulous. Nothing could be easier. A new "inexpensive" MB is due out very soon, cost thought to be about $800 (NAD separates, B&W 803S speakers). I can't get CD paranoia to add metadata. What am I doing wrong?
Have none of these gentlemen experienced the Kaleidescape system's music capabilities?
Everyone I've met that spent a few hours with it feels that it's worth it.
Been through the mill, building PC based setups for years. Yes, they work. Yes, they can sound good, Yes, it's a bit less money [at least initially], but I simply just can't see how I would live with a PC based setup again after this.
Total non-stop reliability. Complete bit-by-bit uncompressed storing. Superb through a good DAC. Unbeatable user interface, endless expansion capabilities. Best iPod integration interface I've ever seen on any server... etc etc.
Oh... yes and it handles all the DVD's as well.. uncompressed, but that's just a bonus. :)
Sooloos and Qsonix are clearly great solutions for bank executives and wall streeters. For the common man/woman, a PC based solution offers an affordable solution. I would like to see TAS provide better coverage of PC (intel/AMD) computer setups, including more discussion of appropriate sound cards, hardware and software, and bypassing USB (by using other higher quality PC outputs). I recognize and understand the bias of TAS writers & editorial staff towards using expensive dedicated systems and MAC computers, but the majority of us have PC's.
Let's not forget that computers can also do videos and can be set for wireless. Also, much of my collection is live concerts and rare progressive european jazz/rock, which will not index on a Sooloos, so the searches mentioned by RH would not succeed with my eclectic collection.
By the way, bought my first single (by the Yardbirds) at age 11 around 1964, but I do not intend to become an old geezer anytime soon.
I don't understand the need for a separate DAC for a computer-based music server. Can't one just output a bit stream from the computer's sound card through a digital coax to a preamp/controller/reciever and let one of those handle the conversion?
When I heard that Oppo's BD 83 Blu Ray player could play files stored on a jump drive or a USB hard drive I bought one. Sadly, I discovered that only compressed formats are supported. They have, apparently, been able to access the hard drives files and folders without the complexity of a computer or mega-buck server.
Surely, its only a matter of time before they or someone else designs a system whereby one would plug a USB hard drive into their player and be able to playback music files at resolutions up to 192/24 or even DSD bitstream? Now THAT would be a truly universal player.
I just wanted to chime in I have had some sucess using the DAC in my CD player (which has a toslink input) to bring the digital stream from a PC into my system. This approach, rather than using the DAC in my pre-amp/controller is that as my CD player upsamples to a much higer resolution.
I have been quite happy with this configuration, though it is not quite as open sounding as the CD..but very close. And as a side note for those who do like or can live with iTunes to manage their music, if you have an ipod touch or iphone, you can download a free "remote" app tha lets you contorl/browse your iTunes library from the device. This allows you to have a nice gui interface right from your listening chair for controlling iTunes on the PC/Mac you are using as your music server at no incremental cost (assuming you have an iTouch/Phone).
If anyone has a moment, explaining jitter would be helpful. Understanding what it is, how it alters sound, what does it "sound like" when present, and how to "fix" it, would be greatly appreciated as I have read reference to it but never fully understood it.
Thanks!
Xphile
I went the PC route mostly, and I'm not even slightly sorry. I have been an audiophile for decades, I've owned Bose 901's, Ess AMT Heil Air 1's, Rogers LS3/5a's, Martin Logan Cls 1's and Aerial Accoustics 10t's along with lots and lots of Turntable, preamps, power amps and CD players. And I'm in my 50's and I found the learing curve not very steep at all.
The route I took was to buy a Slim Devices Squeeze Box for around $300, and external 1 TB USB hard drive for about $100, and that was it! I already had a good router and a good Laptop PC. All I did was use a freeware product called Exact Audio Copy to rip my 900+ CD's as Flac files to my USB drive, set up Slim Server on my Windows Vista Based PC, and set up my Slim Devices Squeezebox by connecting it to my Benchmark Dac-1 which I had bought some years earlier. And after Slimserver scanned by music collection, I was ready to go. It plays perfectly, I have no problems finding anything, and it's how I play almost all my music these days. Did I mention the sound is pluperfect? EAC copies bit for bit what's on the CD and the protocols on Slim Server and my router insure a perfect bit for bit copy of what's on the CD is delivered to the Benchmark first time, every time.
And, it only cost $400 to do this, and one afternoon of my time (excluding the time to rip the CD's). It was not hard at all. And it could have been done even more inexpensively using the Roku Sound Bridge or the Apple Airport express, or simply by using a $20 USB cord to a USB DAC. And the sound is every bit as good as any multi kilobuck CD player you could buy. And all without spending $3 to $4kilobucks or more on some "dedicated" music server.
And using this approach also has its advantages in at least two other respects. There are a number of companies out there manufacturing DSP boxes for $3 to $5 k such as TACT and Lyngdorf which provide room and speaker correction. Well, guess what, there are software programs which provide exactly the same functionality which run as plug ins for software players such as Itunes, Media Monkey, Foobar, and Squeezecenter. One of them for Squeezecenter called Inguz is a free plug in. Among other things this means one less box, and it also means that as more powerful PC's are developed, new versions of the software (also free) will be coming out. Thus, you will never be at the mercy of some DSP box provider offering "order of magnitude" improvements if you only spend the $5k for his new processor.
Also, using your PC is the easy way into higher resolution digital files. Squeezecenter will play 24/96 digital files which you can buy online, thus your player will not be obsoleted by new formats.
I think many audiophiles do not understand the paradigm has changed. It used to be, you HAD to purchase a $3-5 k box to play vinyl or CD's to get the high resolutions needed for high end audio. NO MORE. No need for special cables, no need for special drive units, no need for vibration control disks, PC based audio works as well at playing music as, say, a $10 quartz wristwatch you can buy at a mall kiosk works at keeping time (which is to say, better than my Rolex Submarainer). If you want to buy superexpensive audio jewelry in the form of say a Solos server, be my guest, but it will not play music any better and an Airport Express or a Squeezebox hooked up to a very good DAC. In short, we have entered a golden, and far more democratic age of high end audio.
I'm glad you did everything quick and easy and you're happy with your setup.
I'd suggest that you do a little more research. While your setup may be good, it can be improved both in software and hardware, IMHO. dbPoweramp reference will make even better rips than EAC - used with the right CD/DVD burner and all the "secure" options deployed, you get even better rips than EAC, which still gives you some errors.
SqueezeCenter doesn't play 96 k files unless you have a Transporter (or a Touch when it comes out). For the Duet, it downsamples the files to 24/48. BTW, I also use a Duet most of the time, so I have nothing against it. But you can significantly (yes, audibly) reduce jitter and improve results with additions and changes to a setup like yours. From your Duet to your DAC additional jitter is introduced. No way around it in a setup like the one you've described, it's inherent in the setup.
Inguz is a good program. But if you think it gives you the same funcitionality and results as a TACT or a Lyngdorf, you're fooling yourself. (I've used both).
Again, not trying to say your results aren't good or that they aren't a good value for dollar. But they aren't the best you can do. If you are happy with them and think spending more is a waste of money, I can't argue. But it is possible to improve on them.
I believe that the audio industry deliberately has its head in the sand. As soon as media files became a stream of zeros and ones they became data. No different from the data that writes your monthly paycheck. All you need now is a laptop, DAC, power amp, and speakers. Attach a network disk drive to your router and all your home computers can share your library of media files. Install a software player like J. River Media Center on all your home computers, one license covers them all, and you're done. Bye Bye the whole front-end of the audio industry. The stand-alone media players like Squeezebox and D-Link players are the last futile attempt of the tail to wag the dog. Instead get yourself the best remote of them all, the Logitech DiNovo Mini. Run a VGA cable from your laptop to your living room flat screen so you can see better. Now you are master of the universe, play your music, movies, home videos, all without leaving your couch. Spend the money you save on upgrading your power amp and loudspeakers.
"As soon as media files became a stream of zeros and ones they became data. No different from the data that writes your monthly paycheck."
Not really true. Computing and network protocols ensure "bit-perfect" reproduction of data. But audio devices don't work on those protocols and jitter is introduced in almost any form of audio: Laptop to DAC, CD playback, Squeezebox feed to your stereo, and in fact between any 2 "digital" devices, each of which is running it's own clock. In fact, the SPDIF interface by itself adds jitter to the chain. SPDIF was chosen at the beginning of the digital age as a convenient compromise solution, with the knowledge that it introduces jitter. Jitter is a form of distortion, and it can be heard. You can reduce it, but you can't totally eliminate it, even with your DAC that claims to be "immune" to jitter.
There are methods of reproduction which are lower in jitter than the Laptop>DAC method you describe. The hardware interfaces chosen do make a difference in the sound of playback, and even the same sigal played on different software/hardware can sound different. Not all algorithms are equally good at turning bits into analogue.
Hi All,
as tigerboy said: if you know how to set up a PC....
While the pc/mac guys fiddling around, i'm sitting here and got the latest Vic Cesnut ans Mem Shannon on my Sooloos. When they still discussing, i sit around with my wife listening to some good music.
Even if sooloos seems to be expensiv, no more probs with updating or what ever.
Yes the DIYers are all right, there is a way to get may be something similar, but never ever more convenience and elegance then sooloos.
If, then you listen to it with Meridian Speakerlink DSP loudspeaker (i do it with DSP5200 SP) then heaven comes down to me.
Best
Armin
Bottom line, TAS is in the business of selling expensive audio gear for its advertisers. Yes, the paradigm has changed with file-based audio, and it's very easy and inexpensive to roll your own system from a PC and network.
Of course, the TAS writers will be steering you to the expensive 10k systems like Sooloos - it's what they do. And, they will try to convince you that having somebody at Sooloos worry about how it all fits together is totally worth 5x the cost. But most people know better, as this thread illustrates.
I too am baffled why anyone would want to pay thousands of dollars for a Sooloos system or any similar media playing system when you have all the functionality you need on your PC or Mac. Of course if you have money to burn then add another piece of audio bling. But first try this, connect your favourite headphones, like your faithful Sennheiser HD600's or Stax's, to the output from your PC+DAC+Amp and listen to your favourite tracks. Game over. As for the arguments about finding things on a computer, we have thousands of files in hundreds of directories with names like Music/cd/Mozart, Music/vinyl/Rolling Stones, Music/Cassette/Joanie Bartels. Just organize it the way you want. It works great for this family. No more gadgets for us, just more music please.
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