Why Not Horns ?
JPH-22 -- Tue, 11/11/2008 - 22:05
Horns - in the "spherical" variety have come of age. No longer sounding honky, throaty or even "colored", they demand to be heard.
I am not biased towards horns, as some folks in the past have been called "horn people". If anything, I am a "box" person as this has been what I've listened to for over ten years. I am embarassed at how far from the truth I have been.
I won't mention any particular brands here, although I could if asked...but I highly recommend that more of us get out there and hear what we've been missing. Hopefully, more makers of high-end speakers will make these spherical horns - even if this isn't a strong possibility...
JPH
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I've heard Avant-Garde horns on several occasions and can say that they can sound very good. RH has famously or infamously commented on the Magicos as well. At much more reasonable prices, CM has covered some Klipsch speakers that work very well. So you have a good point -- no reason, per se, to be biased against horns.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
It's a rare horn-based system indeed that doesn't suffer from horn colorations in the midband. Nonetheless, they have startling dynamics.
Avantgardes are poor representations of what horns can be. This is especially regrettable in light of the fact that they are one of the few horns to have reached "mainstream" consciousness.
IMO - - and it is just that, an opinion - - horns are far superior to dynamic driver (if ever thre was a misnomer...) speakers. This is not to say that horns are perfect; even the best of them are far from it. But to my ear, horns provide sonic attributes that are far more important to music - - as opposed to sound - - than the the attributes of dynamic driver speakers. This is compounded by the ability of horns to be drivern by low powered SET amp, rather than the usually dreadful-sounding high powered transistor amps that dominate mainstream audio.
My two cents.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
I respectfully disagree with RH on horns. None of the new-generation models have any hint of coloration, "megaphone" effect or "throaty" sound - at least not as far as I can tell. Again - I'm not a horn person, I'm just reporting the recent trends. The following is a list of compression-driver based horns in high-end audio...followed by a (brief) subjective comment.
Spherical:
-Sunny - "best of show" and new reference speaker for several audio reviewers
-Cessaro - JV "best sound", at least in one category
-Avantgarde - improved over the years, still a reference for several audio writers
-BD-Design - "swing" type speaker, great Euro-show raves
-Azzolina - glowing recent show reports
-Zingali - HP rave review, a few years back
-Calix - Paul Bolin best speaker ever (review) several years ago
-Hubotec - RH glowing show report, "best at show" by few others, DSP Xover
-Acapella - "best at show", zero-mass arc tweeter, over-the-top reviews
Conical:
-Oswald Mill - very favorable RMAF '08 show reports
Radial / Bi-radial:
-Classic - JV "terrific accomplishment" RMAF '08
-Aspara - recent show thumbs-up
-Klipsch - Sam Tellig "no honkin' sound" review '06
-XLH - online review raves
-Usher (reference) - East Asian show raves
-JBL (references) - best speakers ever...by some
I've finalized my list of (true) high-end horns. This time, I added Klipsch, Azzolina, Aspara and Usher. Besides Klipsch's Heritage series (like the one Tellig reviewed), Klipsch now offers a whole new reference line called Palladium - one model was recently reviewed by Steve Guttenberg.
I would also like to add to the list the Shindo field coil (!) horns. These are getting white-hot reports, one last month by Jules Coleman.
As for auditioning, finding dealers that carry these brands may be challenging...but the search is worth it, in my opinion. My list is simply a starting point - see the brands, Google them /read reports and go listen !!
JPH
jph:
The problem is not horn "honk" (which I agree, is not a major problem); rather, it is the result of a major (and self-perpetuating) change in preferred sonic parameters.
I am in the midst of witing an article on ths subject, which I hope to have completed withiin the next few weeks.
Regards,
Larry Borden
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Among well designed horns, I suspect the horn anomalies of the past had to do with other variables, such as not rolling off the midrange driver fast enough (both on the high and low end in a three way system), once past its least distorted range, or just setting (or allowing the consumer or dealer to set) the midrange level too high (JBL), The major change (other than a firmer wood cabinet) that differentiated the Klipsch model Sam Telllig liked from its original version of the 1960s was a new crossover network that (among other improvements) filtered out the midrange before it reached a high frequency anomaly .... now, virtually only the tweeter is working in that range.
This is true...crossover changes / adjustments helped Klipsch. Newer, more powerful magnets were beneficial as well. Imagine Klipsch with field-coil drivers ?!!
Larry: Will your piece appear in TAS ?
JPH
I'd be up for a TAS eval (after I finish a multichannel project). What are some representative speaker models?
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
I'd try the Sunny H3W12 or H3W10....
I agree that the two models above are quite good...but Sunny also offers a start-up model, the H2W8. The "H2" or "H3" indicates if it's a 2 or 3-way design. I also updated my list of "highlight horns" above. I took the full-drive-unit Maxxhorn off the list and replaced it with the Classic horn that JV raved about at RMAF recently. I wanted to keep the list purely compression-driver based. There are plenty of front-loaded horn designs out there (like the Maxx) - my list is for more ambitious attempts at hornspeaker design.
Horns have come a long way in the last few years - remember RH's comments on the huge Magico's ? "They made (old) recordings sound like they were secretly recorded on high-resolution equipment". Other folks are saying the *same thing* about these newer (and less costly) designs. Imagine if Jim Smith's advertisements in TAS earlier this decade were true after all...only now, horns are even better and come without the drawbacks !! I'm very excited.....
jph:
"Larry: Will your piece appear in TAS ?"
No, it willbe in Stereo Times, unless RH suddenly takes a shine to my ideas. :)
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
I'm certainly interested in seeing your article. The criteria for publishing articles by freelance writers is not whether the writer agrees with a certain orthodoxy, but whether the subject is of interest to TAS readers, the thesis is thoughtfully considered, and the writing compelling. I think TAS should reflect a diversity of opinion and viewpoints.
Robert:
I never had any doubt of how open-minded you are in terms of material accepted for publication. And despite your having rejected the previous article I sent you (on the roll of rock music in high-end audio), I'm more than willing to give you another chance. :) :)
Regards, and thank you.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Would the Tannoy's be considered horns? I have heard some pretty incredible sounds coming from an 8 inch dual-concentric designed for ceiling use, but put into a slim bass reflex box. It seems to have the best of both worlds for me, electrostatic coherence and horn dynamics and liveness.
The vintage Tannoy concentric speakers are superb. To the best of my knowledge the woofer is rear horn-loaded. As for the tweeter, I think the woofer serves a wave guide, but I would defer to those who are more knowledgeable.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Note that the new issue of HiFi+ (Issue 62) has Roy Gregory's review of the Avantgarde Uno Nano.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Generally speaking, I have considerable respect for his opinion. I can't imagine what he will say about that speaker.
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Roy's Avantgarde review is a long and worth reading in full, but Roy says "Every time I think I've fastened on what these speakers do (or don't do) they go and surprise me. Every time I unearth some aged gem I've not listened to in years, they remind me just why I bought it in the first place."
Paul Messenger covers the Cain & Cain Abby Loudspeaker in same issue.
http://www.nextnewsstand.com/product/hifi-62/
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Thanks for the heads up. I'm not sure if this was the model Lawrence Blair had at RMAF; which ever model that was, I thought it sounded terrible. Of course, these were show conditions, blah blah blah.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
For anyone interested (and near enough), you can hear the Klipsch Jubilee if you'd like and are near Knoxville, TN. Also... there are maybe 12 or so other owners out there (Chicago, Boston, Florida, Nashville, Texas, Lousianna, NY to name a few) that would also be willing to share an audition. You can do a search on the Klipsch forum and find pages and pages to read about it. The Jubilee was PWK's last project.
They're big & ugly but they DO sound fantastic.
(not registered here yet)
Classic Audio Reproductions speakers have been praised since demonstrating them at RMAF '08 and THE Show '09 with field coil drivers. They are a night and day improvement over the non-field coil drivers. TAS should do an in-depth article on speakers employing field coils.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
My series on Classic Audio Loudspeakers covers field coils. Unfortunately, John Wolff didn't have the T3.3 in field coil and TAD configurations to compare, but you can see what I thought about the field coil version here:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/back-the-future-true-technology-breakthrough
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Thanks, Tom!
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
Thank you, gentlemen. It's nice to see that some folks have good ears and desire something better than what's out there. Horns have come of age, naysayers be damned. I give a lot of credit to Classic for being there so early in this evolution of speaker design. But Klipsch and JBL were always there. JBL, in particular, made horns from the 70's to the 90's mostly for the Japanesse market. The Germans (Acapella) hopped on board in the early 80's. Now, all these years later, the floodgates are opening up for the rest.......
As promised: here is the first installment of my Horn Loudspeaker Quest:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/back-the-future-true-technology-breakthrough
You can click from there to all three segments I wrote on the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T3.3 (and a little on the Hartsfield).
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Thank you, Tom. It's so interesting to see this....I mean, one audio writer said above it's a "rare" system that doesn't have coloration(s). Apparently, with all the co. listed above, nothing could be further from the truth !! Good luck !!
Well to be honest, he's right. I'd prefer to say "only a system in your head doesn't have colorations -- real ones all do". Once we get that clear, then it is a matter of which mix and level of colorations least interrupts the sense of virtual reality.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Re Tom Martin's comment: 'Well to be honest, he's right. I'd prefer to say "only a system in your head doesn't have colorations -- real ones all do". Once we get that clear, then it is a matter of which mix and level of colorations least interrupts the sense of virtual reality.' I say one thing. Absolutely!!
Very few horns these days have the colorations of the past. If all those reviews and/or show reports are right...then the writer must be wrong. But who's counting ? I'm glad it's happening. Meanwhile, I look forward to your review..........
I think RH is taking a hard line and referring to the broad base of horn speakers. On that same line, we should say that "it is the rare multi-way dynamic speaker that doesn't suffer from power response colorations". If each camp insists that's its baby is perfect, useful dialog decreases.
I don't know about the colorations of the past, so I can't comment on that. My report, presumably like other reports, shouldn't be taken to mean "horn speakers have no colorations". Rather, I would summarize it as "horn speakers -- a least Classic's -- have some strong virtues that might make you willing to overlook their colorations". A version of that summary is what we should say about all good speakers.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
What I meant by "the past" is the annoying (and obvious) "shouting" effect of horns. Almost everyone who heard horns in the past know what I'm talking about. You are over-analyzing my statement.
Due to air-cavity adjustments, the new horns have overcome this effect. Manufacturers are claiming it...and audiophiles are certifying it.........
I suppose. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just offering a perspective that might allow us to see the truth in what each of us is saying.
I'm also trying to point out that every technology has problems, and it can help to focus honestly on the pros on cons of real examples. Frankly, I think we'd all be better off if we forgot past experience (consumers not designers!). Ditto with gross generalizations. Technology moves forward and what was true before often isn't true now. Some people may not like this approach.
As for new horn technology, I can't certify something technical, only what I can hear, so I'm willing to presume you are right. Seems consistent with technological progress. I would also say that Classic's horns don't seem to have a different design from "the past", but maybe they do. They sound pretty good, so perhaps some older designs can work? Or maybe they've been tweaked? Again, I think we'd be better off if we just focused on what is.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Horns today are different - inside. Air-cavity adjustments and stronger / more stable magnetic structures did it.
Sam Tellig flipped over the Klipsh speaker a few years ago, even though it used the same (old) drivers and cabinet. Small things can make a big difference.
You guys might take a listen to the great Odeon speakers from german speaker maker http://www.odeon-audio.com.
This is nothing to compare with stuff like Avantgarde or Zingalli, trust me this is really a horn that is made from whole wood and has the best natural timbre i have ever heard. I listened to it with air tight reference and wavac. That was simply the best
Perhaps the most realistic reproduction of music I've ever heard was from a horn system: The Magico Ultimate in the home of Robert Nachtigall in San Francisco. The Ultimate is a truly heroic implementation of the technology, and one that made me question the current paradigm of relatively insensitive box speakers driven by massive power amplifiers. (Each of the Ultimate's drivers except the conventional woofer was driven by a 9W SET amplifier.)
Magico's Alon Wolf has just built a revised version of the Ultimate for a customer in Hong Kong that is running in his shop. Those who have heard it report that it is staggeringly great.
I think Odeon is defuct...I don't see any new info from importer.
The new CAR speakers with the field coil drivers are a marked improvement over the previous generation. That said, IMO they are still far from being state-of-the-art.
My two cents.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Then what is closer?
Robert:
"...and one that made me question the current paradigm of relatively insensitive box speakers driven by massive power amplifiers."
For your reading pleasure. :)
http://www.stereotimes.com/comm031909.shtml
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
JPH-22's original post of Nov 11 and follow up of Dec 5 seem to have a mistaken impresssion of what makes a horn 'spherical'. Certainly most of the horns he lists as Spherical on Dec 5 are in fact not.
I think he just means round-mouthed horns. Which is in itself no prerequisite for horn bliss.
Then what is?
It looks like he classified them by Dec. 5, into three categories....
Would RH be kind enough to elaborate on how the Magico Ultimate horn system managed to changed his views on horns? i.e. from colored midband performance (11/15/2008) to "most realistic reproduction of music" (4/29/2009).. Sounds like the stuff that dreams are made of. What are the things that the Ultimate do that make them stand out from other statement products? Thanks in advance..
Two thoughts:
I'm not sure the Magicos changed RH's view on horns as stated above. That's because I think his "midband colorations" comment might be being misinterpreted. There are over a million high cost (aimed at high performance of some sort) horn speakers in the installed base today. A lot of them are old designs, some with what might loosely be called a PA orientation. I can imagine that many have mid-band and other colorations. With that in mind, the new, high-end horns are rare by definition (all are very low production volume as far as I can tell). They might all be great or some of them might be. I know RH and he abides pretty strictly by Ivor Tiefenbrun's "if you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion" empirical dictum. So, I'm sure Robert would allow that these new designs could be excellent.
I think a problem that the original post in this thread highlights is that when a technology has a big and not always strong installed base, it is hard for the manufacturers of that technology to get attention because it is hard to answer the question "what will be different this time?". Think not just horns, but omnis, solid-state preamps, and CD playback in the past. TAS reviewers are human, and we use rules of thumb just like everyone else. One reason the Magico Ultimate gets attention is that Magico makes highly-respected "conventional" dynamic speakers. So, when such a manufacturer has a horn system at the top of his line, well, one has to ask "what's with that?". The view that changed a few years ago for RH was from "I assume horns aren't pushing the state of the art" to "horns have something to say about the state of the art". That isn't a change from 11/2008 to 4/2009.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Robert's original review of the Magico Ultimates is here:
http://www.avguide.com/review/magico-ultimate-loudspeaker
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
I think we should let RH comment on this one.....
I haven't heard most of the horns listed above...but it looks like we had a giant breakthrough in this approach. *No-one* should dismiss horns as serious contenders in sound playback. Sam Tellig's review of Klipsh in '06 speaks volumes. He bought the review pair......
I have Klipsch Heresy 2's for 20 years they are a great sounding speaker.
I have done a lot of tweeks to make it less harsh.But they sound they have is awesome. I will keep these speakers forever!!!!