Which "Pane" is worst?

s08.mbower -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 19:17

Hello!
I was hoping to be able to describe my equipment and it's sound and, with the benefit of the forum's input, determine which component(s) is holding me back the most. My current setup:
Oppo BDP-83SE and Sonos ZP90 via emotiva interconnects to...
Sony STR DG-1000 receiver for C,SL,SR/preamp for fronts via BJC interconnects to...
Emotiva XPA-2 via monster cable wires to...
PSB Image T55s (single wired), Image C40, Alpha B1s, Cerwin Vega 12" subwoofer
No power conditioning, stock power cables
For stereo listening, I tend to favor mainly music recorded in live spaces. My Home Theater and stereo systems are integrated because of space and cost/benefit considerations. My listening room is small (11 x 13 x 9) and the equipment's position in the room is fixed do to layout but optimized as well as is practical I think. I understand my placement is a limitation but a new space is on the horizon.
I have been Napstering (technical Sonos term) all of the music that was available on the TAS 207 evaluation recordings list trying to see if I could conclude anything. Although all of it was brilliant to listen to (bought some of it), the following is the best I can do to evaluate my system with out writing a book.

What I hear that I like: an amazing center image, respectable upper bass output and midrange clarity, very good macrodynamics (and volume capability), and parts of my best recordings can feel like surround.
What I am hearing that I don't like: as the volume goes up the tonal balance shifts toward the upper midrange/treble, the upper midrange/treble is often grainy and sharp (I DO want to turn it down on some recordings)
What I do not think I am hearing: a wide or deep soundstage, very little sense of space, placements of instruments on the stage, good decay, neutral balance.
As an incremental purchaser, I am leaning towards a quality preamp as my biggest improvement instead of completing my system as per RH's wonderful book. However, I am clearly unsure. Will $1-2k in power cords, cables, conditioners, etc. get me clearer view of the music than an acual preamp? Can a sub $2 preamp best my receiver? Am I wrong for persuing separates (I like the upgrading versatility as I am far from done bettering my listening experience)? Auditioning, for me, would be day-long trips to dealers with this kind of gear so I need a plan. What do you think? Can you rank them from 'get/replace' down to 'wait'? How am I doing from a system building stand point?
Many Thanks. First time poster, Long time reader,
-Harvey

JLeeMD -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 20:06

I cannot imagine going back to stock power cords / no power conditioner! I'd start there. In fact, in my system (Esoteric X-05 SACD/CD player, Mark Levinson No.383 integrated amp, Dynaudio Confidence C1 speakers) I've spent a disproportionate amount on power products (Shunyata Anaconda power cords and PS Audio P600 power "conditioner") as I've come to realize after much experimentation that this is where I get the most "bang for the buck."

s08.mbower -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 20:35

Thanks for the reply!
Well that certainly sounds promising. Do you think my cable/conditioner budget should be proportional? Maybe Shunyata Venom3 (x3) and a PS Audio Quintet ($800 by my count)? Or would you recommend me allocate more for a more lasting investment (maybe $1500)? I was nervous about power upgrades because when I went to the Oppo from a generic BDP the sonic improvement was less than I had hoped. Thats why I thought I had maxed out my potential for good sound by using the Sony as a preamp...

JLeeMD -- Thu, 10/14/2010 - 12:58

The Venom 3/PS Audio combo will surprise you. It may even shock you. While these products are inexpensive they are outstanding performers. The sonic qualities you are after (ambience retrieval, balanced treble) are exactly the sonic improvements you can expect with power conditioners.

I know from previous discussions on this forum that Josh Hill is a firm power cord/power conditioner nonbeliever...to each his own, but you might ask people like Robert Harley before you conclude power products are of little value. Better yet, you can audition them and decide for yourself. The Cable Co has a relatively painless in-home audition program.

Josh Hill -- Thu, 10/14/2010 - 20:00

Not really an accurate remembrance. What I've said is that I've seen objective evidence in the studio that power cords can make an audible difference, depending on lead dress. So it seems to me quite possible, even certain, that shielding could make an audible improvement under certain circumstances. Similarly, an undersized or poorly constructed cord can cause voltage drop in a high current draw device like a power amplifier.

As to power conditioners, they can of course make a difference, again, depending on circumstances. We routinely used them in the studio. They're particularly important where circuits are undersized, voltage is low (or dangerously high), or the line is noisy. My main practical objection to voltage regulating power conditioners is that people tend to undersize them and choke their power amplifiers rather than improving them.

As I recall, our debate was about fancy receptacles.

Anyway, my point here wasn't that esoteric power cords and power conditioning couldn't make a difference to the sound of the OP's system, but that the problems he reported hearing appear to be a consequence of the speakers he's using. That where I think he's most likely to hear a big improvement, and where I think he should focus his initial attention.

s08.mbower -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 20:48

As a side note much of the sonic character I am wanting (ambience, spacial ques and balanced treble) I can get out of my "reference" iPod classic with open ear Sennheiser HD420SL's (1985 I think?). So I am sure it is on the shiny discs...

Josh Hill -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 20:56

The Oppo and Emotiva should be fine if working and set up properly. That pretty much makes the Sony or the speakers the culprit, or some kind of extreme placement/acoustical problem that's interfering with soundstaging. And unless you're using the Sony in some kind of strange mode or have some kind of major malfunction, I doubt it's that bad. Unfortunately, I haven't heard the PSB's. But I can tell you is that the sort of problems you mention are unlikely to be fixed by cables or power cords, whatever improvements they make: with the right equipment, you should hear a spectacular soundstage, neutral balance, and good dynamics even with zip cord. So, as a matter of practicality, I'd suggest you toy with placement first, then basic acoustics -- is your room too live? -- and then, if that doesn't solve the problems, upgrade the main speakers next. Then the pre.
Does this sound familiar?
"However, it was while listening to this recording that I got a sense that the T55ʼs dynamic envelope was not stretched as tautly in the
upper octaves as in the lower. Transient nuances and finely graded dynamic shadings in the treble didnʼt quite mirror the speakerʼs
responsiveness in the lower frequencies. While the tweeter and mid/bass drivers cohered well, there was a slight reduction in energy
in the upper mids and perhaps a modest rise in the lower treble. As a result, on a raspy, reedy vocal like Mare Cohn singing “True
Companion” [Marc Cohn, Atlantic], Cohnʼs performance lost a bit of masculine chestiness – his voice settling higher in his throat. “Laidback”
would be too strong a characterization, but there was a sporadic tonal/dynamic unevenness that sometimes drew attention to the
lack of intensity of the T55sʼ uppermids. . . . By comparison, the T55ʼs soundstaging was unexceptional, its treble not as refined."
http://www.interconnect.no/files/dokumenter/PerfectVision_T55_System.pdf
Sounds similar, if not unequivocally identical, to the sonic problems you report, reinforcing my suspicion that the speakers are the culprits here.

s08.mbower -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 21:29

Wow, that does sound pretty spot on... maybe I have been condemning the wrong component. The sony is in 'multi in' so nothing is processed and everything is connected properly (checked phase and balance with test disc and spl meter a few times). The room is carpeted with large drapes opposite the speakers and there are two large soft couches but still largely reflective on wall and ceiling. With a move likely in the next 6-8 months I am tempted to wait on speakers but I could swing upgrading to entry level pre and power cond./cords. But, maybe waiting on the pre would be smart too. Is it recommend generally to wait to upgrade electronics if a new room is in the near future? Or would it be smart to wait not for the room, but because the speakers and electronics could be better matched having fewer unknowns in the equation?
Thanks for the relpies, this is really helpful.

Josh Hill -- Wed, 10/13/2010 - 22:22

I guess if I were being responsible, I'd say to wait on the electronics, because, as you say, preamps and speakers can complement one another. But I wouldn't obsess about it, either, if you're in the mood to try something new. :-) Audio cables, OTOH, I'd definitely wait on, since you don't know how long they'll have to be in your new room.
Also, given that you already have a good player and capable amp, I'm thinking that you should take all the money you can muster and put it into your speakers, since that's what's going to take your system to the next level right now -- from what sounds from the review like a reasonable mid-fi home theater set up into high end audio. Which is like going from rhinestones to diamonds. The sonic effects of power cords and speaker cables are subtle, whereas I don't think that any change you will ever make to your audio system will make as much of a sonic difference as taking the next step in speakers will.

s08.mbower -- Mon, 10/18/2010 - 14:16

Your comments really got me thinking about speakers and power products. I went to two dealers over the weekend after doing a lot of listening at home. I demoed some new possibilities for speakers and was hearing a lot of the sound I am looking for. Interestingly enough, both stores did not have any power filtration on any of the systems I auditioned. They did have aftermarket power cables though on the sources and amps. I think I am going to wait on power products... I was particularily impressed with the treble and mids of the Haydn Grands. I will probably have to move this to the speaker forum, but how can you tell if a speaker is capable of high volumes for music/home theater? I didn't want to ask the salesman to intentionally tax his speakers but it is an important condsideration for me. I am not a head banger but some mucis I do take to reference levels. I know I should wait on the speakers, but the dealer is offering them brand new in rosewood for $750 a pair. So I am curious, would it be a mistake to pick them up even though a new place will be here inside of a year? I have a hard time believing I could ever beat that price, and they were reviewed well in TAS. Josh Hill, you recommended putting everything I had into the speakers. I like that idea. But I do think going from midfi towers to these would make a hige difference and still save money for other products. Thoughts?

Josh Hill -- Mon, 10/18/2010 - 15:44

The traditional rule of thumb was that half the cost of a stereo system should go towards the speakers. Of course, that was just a guideline, and they weren't talking about home theater. It reflects the fact that, as the most colored component, speakers make more of a difference in your system than electronics, assuming the electronics are of a certain minimal quality.
Determining maximum output can be tough. Most manufacturers don't provide specs, and amplifier size recommendations are of limited use. Typically, consumer speakers will do 115 dB SPL, which is a bit shy of what's needed to accurately reproduce any orchestral recording from an orchestra seat perspective. But there are some that will play louder than that, and some that can't get past 100. I wouldn't hesitate to play the speakers loud in the store -- just ask the salesman first if you can crank them. If he's afraid to subject them to the kind of levels you have in mind, they aren't robust enough for your application! Otherwise, I agree that you should ask around on the forums. I haven't heard them myself.
I looked at some reviews BTW and some of them referred to a midrange suckout. These people did measurements:
http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-and-...
Unfortunately, you have an audiphile's ear, and in this price range, you're probably going to have to make a decision between audiophile quality and really high output, unless you're comfortable buying and refurbishing vintage gear, or building speakers yourself. But who knows, maybe one of the reviewers has something magical that will fit the bill. The fact that you have a subwoofer and a big amp makes things easier. Hell, if I were you, I'd find a way to up the budget to $900 and buy a pair of Magnepan 1.6's on Audiogon, there are a lot of them for sale now because the 1.7's have come out. They will give you true high end sound, and your sub can handle the dinosaur footfalls. But they won't play as cleanly as dynamics or larger planars at really high levels.

s08.mbower -- Thu, 10/21/2010 - 12:40

Mr. Hill,
Thank you for the ball park figure. I have never demoed speakers with an SPL meter in hand so that helps. You mention stretching the budget, I don't think I touched on that. I can go to $2K for speakers (pair), and had considered getting the 1.7's but that would be space dependent (def not in the 11x13 I have now). My concern is all of the reviews I read tend to be very critical of the treble in that price range. I also find it hard to guage total performance of one product because as the products' price increases, the reviews become even more critical (as they should). This is easy to see when you look at a non-comparitive review of a sub-$1k monitor and then read a comparitive review of two $30k monitors, It sounds like the review of the first is more possitive. But the difference in quality between what I have and a $2k monitor is so different that it is hard to compare based on reviews (read: B&W685 vs 1.7). I don't have many close options for auditioning so this makes it hard to decide which ones are worthy of a special trip to a special dealer.

Josh Hill -- Thu, 10/21/2010 - 14:49

I know what you're saying. Reviewers tend to measure speakers not just against one another, but against others in their price class, so if a $2000 speaker is great in its price class and a $30,000 one isn't the first review will be more enthusiastic.

But there's another perspective on this, which is that once you hit the "sweet point" you start paying an awful lot for relatively subtle improvements. What I'm thinking you want is that magical entry level high end speaker that has sound that delights and that you'd be happy with for the rest of our life. The question is how to do it in a room too small for planars, given that boxes of equal quality cost more, and doubly so how to do it when auditioning is difficult.

I'm thinking that your best bet may be Audiogon. You can get twice the speaker for the money, and if you decide that what you get isn't for you, you can sell it back for what you paid for it. That puts you, effectively, in the $4000 price range if you have a $2000 budget, and you have a sub, so you don't need something with a great deal of bass extension, which helps keep the cost down. I'd also explain the situation (small room, budget, sub and big amp) in the speaker forum and ask the critics what they recommend. There's no guarantee that their taste will be the same as yours, but your chances are much better than buying at random, and easier than trying to figure it out from reviews and recommended components lists.

Steven Stone -- Mon, 10/18/2010 - 20:25

Hello HArvey,

Your description of "symptoms" points toward a power amp that is becoming stressed at higher SPLs.

I would try to sub in a more powerful receiver/pre/pro/amp combo and see if the results are similar or different.

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

s08.mbower -- Tue, 10/19/2010 - 15:42

Mr. Stone,
Thank you for chiming in. I am curious, the amp I am using now has an obsurd power rating but is not critically aclaimed in any of the heavy-hitter hifi journals. It is rated at 250/500 watts at 4/8 ohms respectively and has a veryyy large supply and decent capacitance. Could that still be the issue? I was nervous buying a product without review but the stars aligned just so and it happened. I have had the "no juice left" observation made to me before and was curious if large quantities of poor amplification could cause the same symptoms?

...sorry I meant 250/500 at 8/4 ohms respectively.

Steven Stone -- Tue, 10/19/2010 - 15:59

All I have judge by is your symptoms, so I immediately thought "power amp."

The only way to tell for sure is to substitute in another amp and see if the problem gets better, stays the same, or gets worse. In two of the last cases it most likely IS power-amp related. If the problem stays the same, then most likely it is not a power amp problem.

JLeeMD -- Thu, 10/21/2010 - 22:15

Your Emotiva amps have been very well-reviewed. That and the Oppo are the two components in your system that are current and well-regarded. Your preamp, speakers, lack of power conditioning and, to a lesser extent, your cables and lack of vibration control are all likely contributing to the undesirable sound you describe. That's why I like the idea of adding a power conditioner and aftermarket power cords first. It will improve everything downstream, which is to say...everything! Moreover, the Venom3 / PS Audio combo you were considering is a modest outlay compared with buying new speakers or preamp that will do justice to your source and amplifier. If you are determined to upgrade your speakers, consider the PSB Imagine T or Paradigm Studio 60v5 (both are $2k/pair).