W4S Dac2 or Sim 300D or Bryston BDA-1

lostinla -- Fri, 01/14/2011 - 18:25

The W4S Dac2 has renewed my interest in getting a standalone DAC to upgrade my CD player sound, my Sonos and also to play HiRes files (from Society of Sound and HD Tracks) off my Mac via USB interface.
My system consists of Wilson Benesch Curves (very revealing speakers) driven by a Parasound Halo A21 at present. The W4S is also attractive in that it can act as a preamp and connect direct to the Halo A21; with HT bypass as I have been using an Arcam AVR350 (receiver) in a hybrid HT / 2 ch system (I also have a TT with PSAudio GCHP phono that can also connect direct to the A21 via balanced interconnects).
Has anyone had the chance to listen to and compare the DACs listed. I realize the USB interface will be a weakness with the Sim and Bryston DACs (not able to play Hi Res files at full bit rate) but could go down the road of getting a USB to SPIDIF converter .... or use the Toshlink.
Are there other $1500-$2000 DACs I should be considering? Keen to get some advice ....
Thank you in anticipation

Steven Stone -- Tue, 01/18/2011 - 10:25

Although I've reviewed the Wyred4Sound DAC2 I haven't heard the other two alternatives you list.

My advice, based on 1/3 knowledge is that if you like your current DAC, get a USB to SPDIF bridge device. But if your DAC is more than 5 years old, the DAC2 would be an upgrade worth the $1500, especially if you are planning to use it as a DAC/PRE.

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

Per Sjofors -- Tue, 01/18/2011 - 18:23

I replaced my BelCanto DAC 1 with the DAC 2 from Wyred 4 Sound in order to be able to run high res files via USB. Huge difference in sound quality. Go for it!
My set-up is:
- I have a Mac server with some 15k uncompressed CD or High Rez quality "songs"
- I use a MacBook Pro connected to a wireless network and the DAC 2 via USB
- iTunes on the MacBook plays the music from the server. Controlled by the Remote app on an iPad
- The DAC 2 is then connected via balanced line level to self powered, full range, single driver EARO speakers. The volume control on the DAC 2 is used.
The only snag with this setup is that when files are played on a Mac, there is no automatic way to control the output sample and bit rate, but it has to be done manually in the Midi Setup app, where one have to manually make sure that the output sample and bit rate match the sample and bit rate of the file - if not, it is resampled to whatever is set in that Midi app. But despite this manual setting, the resulting quality is worth it this inconvenience. 196/32 is sweet!

Steven Stone -- Wed, 01/19/2011 - 00:39

You might want to investigate the software program "Pure Music." In my MAC system it gives me automatic bit rate changes via it's HOG mode. But I, too often need to check out audio output settings via the Midi app, to the point where it's on my dock so I can get at it faster...

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

Per Sjofors -- Wed, 01/19/2011 - 11:06

Steven. Very interesting. I have just downloaded the demo.

lostinla -- Thu, 01/20/2011 - 20:56

I have downloaded the demo too. Thanks.
Also, placed the order for the DAC2 yesterday .... now the wait for it to be built and shipped....
I appreciate the input helping me make the decision!

lostinla -- Fri, 01/21/2011 - 00:53

Steven, which Midi App do you use to monitor the audio output settings?

Per Sjofors -- Fri, 01/21/2011 - 07:31

If you are on a Mac, there is something called Audio MIDI Setup in the Utilities folder. I found the "Pure Music" to be very useful as it does these changes for you. The only snag with Pure Music is that when you control iTunes via an iPad, there is a rather annoying lag between your command and action, eg hit Play and wait 3-4 seconds before music plays. This does not appear when you use Pure Music and control iTunes direct from the computer.

lostinla -- Fri, 01/21/2011 - 20:08

Thanks, Midi is now in my dock!
How do you play your 24 bit FLAC files through Pure Music - as they can't be imported into iTunes

Steven Stone -- Fri, 01/21/2011 - 20:34

I convert my FLAC files to AIFF and import them into iTunes with a utility from Amarra. Once converted, Pure Music finds the files and plays them, including 44.1/24 bit FLAC files, just fine. I'm listening to the Beatles "Octopuses Garden" from a 44.1/24 AIFF file as I type this...

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

Per Sjofors -- Fri, 01/21/2011 - 21:38

Found there is a setting in Pure Music called "hybrid memory play". This cause this delay I'm talking about. For converting FLAC files I use xACT. It is free and works great.

lostinla -- Sat, 01/22/2011 - 01:37

Songbird plays FLAC files ....can this be used with the DAC? Or is Pure Music still superior sounding even with converted FALC files (in AIFF).

Per Sjofors -- Sat, 01/22/2011 - 10:10

As far as I know, Songbird use the "engine" of VLC, and I'm not aware of any remote control application for it. I tried it a couple of years ago and then found it a bit clunky. This may have changed. Pure Music upconvert files, should you want to, and is more feature-rich. When it comes to playback quality, a file is a file is a file and as long as the program does not process the file there cannot be any difference.

adanny -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 17:52

Steven - aside from the obvious feature differences, are there any sonic differences between the DAC 2 and DAC 1? Have you or others also compared against the PSA DL III with Cullen mods (i.e. the same house as W4S), or PSA PW. Since I have a pre-amp and use Sonos as the source, I dont need any of the features, remote, volume etc - just the best sounding DAC under $2k with 2-3 RCA/Tos inputs. Thanks

Steven Stone -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 18:08

Sorry adanny,

I haven't heard the other DACs you've mentioned. I heard a stock PS DLlll a couple years back in a different system so I can't really compare it to the DAC2.

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

adanny -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 18:48

Thanks Steven. I will call W4S and see what they say. Will post back if there is anything insightful

lostinla -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 19:03

Ask about the Sonos mod with i2s output

adanny -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 19:34

Will do. Did you get your I2S output into a coax/tos or into some other output format?

Also, any point of view on whether the 48k, 96k or 192k output device is best? Sonos recommends the 96k in their website. I guess it would also depend on which DAC I decide to get since the DAC should be able to accept the new Sonos output.

lostinla -- Tue, 01/25/2011 - 19:57

No, but I'm considering it. I spoke to them about it. It's $300 I think... Maybe the standard re-clocking mod would be more sensible and keep the I2S port for a high resolution feed. It's a shame Sonos don't do high res files.
Wyred say on their website they are going to offer I2S upgrades on other devices in the future.

adanny -- Mon, 01/31/2011 - 17:08

I spoke to W4S. They were very helpful, but neutral on whether to get the I2S or the standard reclocking mod for the Sonos. Different paths to the same output. I2S is more recent execution and therefore more untested. Of course, the standard reclocker into coax/Tos is more versatile but also a slightly longer signal path.

Also, numerous users on audiogon and computer audiophile forums appear to have switched from standard and modded PSA DLIII to the W4S Dac 1/2 with consistently very good results. So I think I am going to go that route as well.

The Dac 2 has better caps, and I2S and balanced inputs, HT pass thru and remote. If you upgrade Dac 1 to the better caps, it sounds the same for Tos/Coax but the Dac 2 has an async 24/192 USB versus just a 24/96 on the Dac 1. So the Dac 1 via USB is not as good as the Dac2 even if you dont care about the features.

lostinla -- Sat, 02/12/2011 - 02:14

My DAC2 arrived today. So far, very good.....only hours in though. Lots of detail, but a tiny bit edge'y on complicated hard rock stuff at the moment, but already mellowing with only 6 hrs on it.

agb -- Mon, 02/28/2011 - 22:22

I posted some comments that might be of interest on the other page here:

http://www.avguide.com/forums/wyred-4-sound-dac2-vs-ps-audio-perfect-wave-vs-ps-audio-dl-iii-modded

I thought SONGBIRD didn't sound good at all. DECIBEL is good sounding and FIDELIA too, the latter can manage iTunes library and HD downloads.

FIDELIA may be just a touch better than DECIBEL, and both should sound very close to, if not the same as Pure Music. These use, I think, the same engine.

hollow_man -- Sun, 05/29/2011 - 06:28

I'm new to this forum, and is very interested in buying a Wyred4sound DAC2...
Would like to know if the DAC can be used as a headphone amp... can anybody give me some hint on this? Thanks..

Steven Stone -- Sun, 05/29/2011 - 09:10

The Wyred4Sound DAC-2 does not have a built-in headphone amp.

You will need an additional external headphone amp to use headphones.

You can find headphone amps for under $100 or you can spend upwards from $1000.

Check out the Peachtree Audio iDac - it's $995. Combine it with the Musical Fidelity headphone amp and line-driver and you have a complete DAC/pre.

Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications

agb -- Sun, 05/29/2011 - 10:15

Sorry Steve, didn't see your post while I was writing mine, but I have been using the W4S for two months or more as a headphone amp and can attest that the sound is significantly better than using with any headphone amp.

The gent proposing the question is on the right track. There is no reason imaginable to add an external headphone amp and extra interconnects to what is already a DAC with a built in line amp that has more than adequate voltage output to drive any headphone extant. There is much to be gained in transparency and immediacy by removing from the signal path what is essentially redundant and what can only veil and color the sound. The same rules apply. There are no impedance mismatches to speak about as a penalty and it is said that no wire with gain is better than any wire with gain.

Go Direct Young Man!

There are various ways to use the W4S DAC-2 as a headphone amp.

It has both RCA and XLR outputs. The output/headphone amp is superb, a very linear design from very experienced engineers.

First: Your choice of headphones is critical. Don't skimp on headphones.
I happen to like the Audez'e planar magnetic LCD-2, others call it orthodynamic (can't figure out where that name came from. They are alike to or related to Magnepan speakers.)
I ordered the balanced XLR cables and an adapter cable set to match the XLR to RCA (fully balanced doubles the output, so the RCA is better suited for the Audez'e to get the digital volume into its most linear range to max the resolution.) To use as a headphone amp you plug the headphone cables into the DAC's outputs. That's it. You raise and lower the volume, change channel balance, mute, change inputs with the remote.

I can't answer why W4S failed to include a headphone jack into what is otherwise a very flexible full featured product. And indeed, these features, as well as its overall sound that some prefer even over the WEISS DACs, set the W4S apart from much of the competition. Some people find the WEISS bright and forward, the W4S more natural. Moreover, the Firewire input has been rejected by most in the industry, and WEISS remains alone in targeting the pro market simply because of the Firewire architecture that has not convinced many that it is superior just for this kind of use, even though the pro market uses Firewire extensively. It's not a problem in any case because the rest of the industry is targeting everybody, pro and consumer alike, and some computers won't have Firewire either.

The huge diaphragm of the Audez'e should be attributed to its smooth and detailed sound and low distortion.

Second, you must get a media player better than iTunes. I recommend Fidelia Player. Nineteen dollars, won't break you, and the sonic improvement is very significant.

For the Audez'e surely, and likely any headphone since the Audez'e is the flattest measuring of any - as measured by the ex president of Headroom with specialized gear no one else seems to have - you still require EQ for the flattest sound as measured AT YOUR EARDRUMS. You can experiment with Fidelia's three Parametric EQ's. Drag each about one octave width - about maximum. Raise the response about +2.5 dB at about 2600 hz, same at 40 hz, and about +1 db at about 5 khz. Remember to SAVE the settings! Do experiment with these suggestions.

The slight warmth the Audez'e has been charged with is entirely gone, more immediacy, transient capability and sparkle has been returned.

The overall sound with the W4S DAC-2 and Audez'e LCD-2 is, and this may be an understatement, astonishing. Anyone trying this combination should make notes in this discussion of the W4S and LCD-2.

Lastly, 200-300 solid hours of burning in of both devices is absolutely necessary. Initially the sound of the DAC is rather flat, boring, grainy and off-putting. Once passing the recommended burn in thresholds, the sound relaxes, images of instruments and voices solidify, the soundscapes open up with dimensional layering and with lots of textures on instruments and voice, with grainless high frequency reproduction of great purity. A superbly detailed and honest sound overall. Transients are stunning, the low frequencies are unbeatable.

I still can't believe what I'm hearing from digital...this from a long-standing analogue hold-out.

hollow_man -- Sun, 05/29/2011 - 20:00

thank you agb for your informative post...I don't have much knowledge about the Audex LCD-2, but a quick google reveal it's a 'planar magnetic' design with RCA input... this raise my queries which I'll be most obliged if you could provide me with further input:

1. is planar magnetic the same as electrostatics like the STAX?
2. seems like the Audex use a RCA input (although the photo also show a conventional headphone jack), but what happen if I'm using other headphone like sennheiser hd800?
3. will there be impedenace matching issue between the DAC2 and the headphone?

thanks once again for the reply.

agb -- Mon, 05/30/2011 - 06:48

Not AUDAX.....Audez'e, pronnounced Odyssey. Don't ask.
Steve Stone hit a home run finding the W4S DAC2...possibly other products from this manufacturer are also noteworthy.
From what I do know, the best DACs are from MSB Tech, but then at 6-30,000 dollars, they'd better be. Theirs are handmade ladder resistor DACs.
Back to your questions:
1. Planar magnetics use a plastic diaphragm onto which are etched a flat aluminum pattern that, when energized by the audio signal across the membrane and magnets arrayed in a symbiotic pattern, front and back, move air to produce sound. Electrostatics use a plastic diaphragm which have a metallic vapor deposition on their surface that is energized at high voltages, the positive and negative waveforms of the audio signal then are directed at the perforated panels front and back of the membrane which electrostatically move the diaphragm to produce sound. Essentially the ESL is a capacitor that charges and discharges. These are short and incomplete explanations, but there are important differences between the two technologiies and great similarites in the result from their application. The large surfaces of both result in linear (low distortion) behavior.
2. The Audez'e are supplied by cables that have RCA plugs just like other headphones have. What happens when you use Sennheisers is the same. Sennheisers are supplied with RCA plugs too. My suggestion is to order the balanced cables from Audez'e and add an adapter cable to connect the Audez'e XLRs to RCA plugs at the other end. These plugs are then inserted into the rear panel of the DAC's RCA jacks. They are now your alternate heaphone jacks, allowing for headphone use a front phono jack would have allowed for.
3. No, why should there be an impedance mismatch? The Audez'e are very low impedance headphones and need reasonable power to drive properly. There are specialist headphone amps specifically made for this type of headphones with even greater power output. SHIIT Audio's comes to mind. Yes, that really is the name of the firm. a. You won't need more power and if you did, just go balanced, which doubles the power, and get an XLR adapter male to female for the Audes'e's balanced cable, and b. You'd lose transparency and immediacy if you did not go direct as I had suggested.
Don't worry; be happy, the system will work exactly as I had stated.

USAudio -- Fri, 06/03/2011 - 12:14

I think the guys from dCS, Berkeley Audio Design, Ayre, Meridian, etc. might disagree that the best DAC's are from MSB. =)
...
2. Not sure what you mean here, I own or have owned Audeze LCD-2's and Sennheiser HD800's and neither came with cables terminated in RCA? They both come with the standard 1/4" (6.4mm) plug.
3. I believe he is talking about the output impedance of the DAC2's RCA and XLR outputs. Those outputs are designed for connection to a preamplifier or direct to an amplifier, not to headphones. Depending on the DAC2's output impedance and the headphone's impedance, there could be a negative impact on the headphone's frequency response. These days many high-quality headphone amplifiers have an output impedance of <1 Ohm.

agb -- Fri, 06/03/2011 - 13:16

I matters not what the guys from Berserkely, Ayre, or Meridian think. What matters is what is.
I WROTE earlier to 2. : My suggestion is to order the balanced cables from Audez'e and add an adapter cable to connect the Audez'e XLRs to RCA plugs at the other end.
ADAPTER: http://www.infinitecables.com/pop/av_xlrf-rca.htm
Enjoy!
I had ordered a half foot special - you need two. Then you need to order the balanced cable from Audez'e. Or have someone fabricate a cable with the wire and plugs of your chooosing.
3. You are correct. The output impedance matters. Some of the time, not all of the time, and it depends. The output impedance of the W4S @ 100 ohms will work with most headphones on this planet. On Mars I have no idea, since the last time I had visited all the audio stores had closed down due to downloads from iTunes. The Martians have become alarmed at Apple taking over the universe.
I call it a negative impact.
Don't believe what you read or manufacturer's claims.
Which reminds me of Ayn Rand who asked: "What is important?" She answered. "Reality."

agb -- Fri, 07/15/2011 - 10:38

ADDITIONS to above:
Steve. Have you tried any of the SPDIF converters with the W4S DAC-2? One interesting device is from
http://www.audiophilleo.com/audiophilleo1.aspx
You may want to compare w. Berkeley's and the DAC-2 if you are still in possession of it.
Also, I tried Pure Music. And tried. My conclusion is that both Decibel and Fidelia at even lower prices is superior. Especially Fidelia which has the Parametric EQs that do not damage the sound re group delays and such. The use of the EQ is beneficial and good. So good, that I'm willing to mix it into my Hungarian style egg salad and eat the whole thing. Fidelia simply sounds better.
Next. This will be interesting. If you had used the W4S DAC-2 with power supply conditioners/AC filters, please unplug it and plug it directly into a separate common AC wall outlet.
I will be interested in hearing from readers on this matter.

agb -- Sat, 07/16/2011 - 07:43

REF: http://www.audiophilleo.com/comparison.aspx

Berekely USB did not provide jitter specs. If their jitter specs are not up to Audiophilleo's, I'd be interested in why not?