VPI vs SME 20/12
Zeb -- Thu, 01/22/2009 - 08:24
Does anyone have any opinion on the relative merits / differences between the VPI SupperScoutmaster and the SME 20/12 ?
I own the VPI, but with the massive drop in the pound vs the dollar, the SME suddenly looks pretty attractive and I might be able to work out a part exchange.
Thanks
I own a tricked out VPI Aries/Graham combo, with SDS, and lived with an SME 20/12 for several months. While the VPI is a great bargain, the 20/12 is a reference turntable system. There is an overal ease of presentation with the SME and music flows forth without the slightest stress or strain (provided it's a good recording). Dynamic contrasts are shocking, music emerges forth from a jet-black background, and bass has more solidity and weight. I like the SME 20/12's suspension, which helps isolate it from structural vibrations, although the new SME 30/12 is better still. I found the SME's suspension was very easy to maintain.
I would definitely go with the SME 20/12 if you can swing it financially.
Having owned various high-end VPIs and also SME 30 turntables I would recommend SME for sheer durability and build quality....it is quite unmatched in this industry. I see lots of comments about small variations in sound quality but very few observations on the importance of owning beautifully made, durable equipment with world-class back-up. I don't regard my SME deck as the best sounding in the world (what would that actually mean?) but it outperforms all others in long term satisfaction and durability. The 20-12 is a lovely looking deck, and sounds rather lovely too, although I doubt that using a 12 inch arm is the main reason for that....the tiny improvements in tracking angle are maybe less vital than the changes in mass and rigidity of these long arms. The cartridge 'sees' something very different to a normal 9 inch arm. Could be better, could be worse.....The really key issue, to me, is long term servicability. SME is no longer primarily a high-fi manufacturer, and hasn't been for many years. About 90% of its product is in the fields of high-precision medical, military and industrial equipment. The factory runs shifts round the clock just to keep up with demand for these products. This gives SME the financial stability to invest in the best engineering capacity...and this feeds through into the sheer engineering excellence of its arms and decks (which, incidentally, seem to make less percentage profit than other SME products; to some extent SME's hifi production really is a 'labour of love'.......) one final point (sorry to drone on). ..the SME decks usually sound best when matched with an arm from other maufacturers..the combination of deck and series five is a little 'dry' to my ears. Use something like the lovely Phantom, or Wheaton, and you will hear the deck at its best....I'm told the Da Vinci 10inch arm sounds even better..and they offer an SME mount .
Zeb:
I am also considering going to the UK for a SME 20/12 or other model. Given that most of the prices are quoted with VAT (which we save if shipping out of UK) and exchange rate of ~1.4, I calculate that a 20/12A (with 312S arm) is only $13,300 - or less than half of US list price of $28k. I do understand that Sumiko is giving US dealers 20% off. But $23K vs $13.3k is crazy different. Getting V-12 arm is not much more. Question - besides paying for shipping, any other issues with the product - 110 vs 230v, etc. Also, what is customs rate?
Famny
Thanks Jim. I eventually tracked your review of the SME 20/12.
A couple more questions: Did you use the Ginko stand with the SME? The review had the 312S arm on it. The 12" version of the series V is out and, I believe, is offered as an option on the 20/12. Would you have any thoughts on that?
Hi Zeb,
I did not use the Ginko stand with the SME. I do use it with the Aires, a mass loaded design which benefits from the air suspension. I have seen several installations of the SME 'tables with Vibraplane isolation stands.
The new SME V-12 arm is derived directly from the Series V tonearm (whereas the 312S is not). From information I got at CES, the V-12 has dynamic-tracking force, a non-detachable headshell, and the Series V's counterweight mechanism. Both arm tubes are made of incredibly strong, yet light-weight magnesium. I don't know if their bearings differ, but I'll try to find out. That could be the key deciding point right there, but the 312S arm is excellent and could save you a lot.
You can purchase the V-12 separately for $7,000, but with the British pound taking a nose-dive, who knows if that US pricing will hold up.
Enjoy!
Hi Jim and Zeb, thanks for starting this thread.
I currenlty own a SME 20/2 with IV.Vi arm and Lyra Skala. I to am considering the SME 20/12 and I'm hoping the exchange rate changes may help me out a little.
Jim, any comments between a 20/2 and 20/12? I am hoping the 12" arm and heavier platter and suspension is a nice improvement. I could also swing a 30/2 with SME V arm possibly. The 30/12 is to much cash and to heavy for my Finite Elemente Rack. So any comments beyond your 20/12 review on the differences between the 30/2 and 20/12 I'd appreciate also.
My dealer is bringing a Grand Prix Monaco and Triplanar arm by this weekend with the same Lyra installed. So I'll be happy to post my experiences if your curious.
Thanks
Thanks Jim - looking forward to your further comments.
Fyi, according to UK price lists, the price differential between a 20/12 with the 312S and the one with the V-12 is around 1500 Pounds, just over $2k at these days' rate.
I did find out an answer to the bearing question. All the new SME arms use the same quality bearings. Therefore, the bearing should not factor into your decision between the 20/12 and the 20 w/V-12. Other features that the V-12 offers may be important to you: dynamic-tracking force, non-detachable headshell (the V-12 tube does not have a "joint" between it and the headshell---it's a single piece.), and the Series V arm's counterweight mechanism.
John, you have a tough call. The 20/2 is an excellent 'table and some do prefer it with a Series V arm to the 20/12. I prefer the 20/12. The SME 30/2 is a better 'table than the 20/2 or the wide-body version, so that may be your biggest "performance boost" step. There is something magical (ease of presentation, lower distortion, etc.) about those larger SME 'tables with the 12" arms that really grabs me.
As for the Grand Prix Monoco and Triplanar combo, that's another great way to go. The speed stability of the GPM is as good as it gets, and I found it to be ultra-quiet, too, (Something you can't say about very many direct drive 'tables, and I lived with a tricked-out SP10MkII for years). I owned an earlier Triplanar and the degree of refinement between the new ones and the older series is pretty remarkable.
I hope this helps, and doesn't serve to confuse you more. You already have a great 'table.
Thanks Jim - since I am not into swapping cartridges every few days, the detachable headshell would not bring anything positive to the table (excuse the pun). Looks like the SME V would be the preferred way to go.
Having said that, I think I'll have to wait before that UK pound drops a bit more before doing the upgrade. It's still pretty hefty these days, even with a part-exchange on my VPI.
A few weeks ago, my SME 20/12 with a V-12 arm arrived, replacing the VPI SSM reference. I moved the Dyna XV1S to the SME, the rest of the system being unchanged. Firstly, I was impressed with the setup kit that SME provides, as well as with the setup instructions. I found the setup procedure incredibly simple, specially when compared to something like the LP12 which I used to have. The SMEs seem to be built to last generations, and do not seem to need any fiddling, everything being rock solid, tight and precise to the extreme. Within an hour or so, everything was put together, cartridge installed, aligned and ready to go.
First off, was disappointment. Strong motor noise coming out. Suspicions of the unbalanced SME supplied vDH tonearm cable were confirmed by my phono stage manufacturer ASR, who helpfully supplied some surgery tips to get the cable to stop acting like a radio antenna. I fiddled around a bit, and go the noise to an acceptable level, in the meantime ordering a PAD Provectus cable with XLR plugs.
Even with the stock tonearm cable, the sound was leagues above the VPI. Sure, it is in another budget range, but Jim's comment about the VPI being excellent value for money, whereas the SME is a true reference is exactly to the point; the VPI sounded like, a budget component in comparison. The SME seems to reduce background noise, does not emphasize any frequency ranges but is totally coherent top to bottom. There is a sense of flow, of continuty in the presentation that make it a joy to listen to music; it is supremely musical. There is also a big increase in soundstage depth, width and height, which transport you to the musical venue. Each instrument is well located within its own space, with the 'air' around it, which makes extremely simple to listen to complex music. With the SME, it is easy to hear each background vocalist separately on a track and identify them, for example. Timbre is superbly reproduced, and I find myself - pardon the cliche - rediscovering my LP collection.
The PAD cable solved all noise issues and improved significantly on the stock cable in the bass, on dynamics and in resolution.
I'm still breaking it in, but I can very highly recommend this turntable system to anyone. It sounds fantastic, looks great, is built like a tank, is easy to setup and seems to be completely hassle free.
Did you purchase your 20/12 in UK and ship it to US? Were there any issues with 110/220, etc? The way I see it now, a 20/12 with V-12 arm should be around $16K at todays f/x rates assuming no VAT but excluding duty/shipping. Definitely better than $28K for 20/12 with 312S tho it seems they are offering 20% discounts now in US)
Did you buy in UK and ship to US? Seems like huge savings - 20/12 with V-12 is $16K plus shipping / duty vs $28K plus for 20/12 with 312S. I hear 20% off now from US dealers - still way off.
If so, are there any issues with 110/220 conversion or other issues I should be aware of?
Thx and hope your new baby is singing by now!
I didn't. I am in Europe and part exchanged my VPI SSM at the SME / VPI dealer - one of the big advantages of going through a good dealer. I will check for you if the power supply has a 110-220 switch, but I don't seem to remember such a thing.
Fyi ,the 20/12 + V-12 arm is about 13k pound in the UK, approx $19500. You have to take off UK VAT, but add transport and US taxes. I am not sure how that works out, but it's worth going through a dealer for a little extra.
The table is absolutely singing. I have taken out the VPI 16.5 cleaner out of its box and have started washing my LPs in earnest. With about 3000 titles, it will take some time, but I am astonished at discovering all the treasures locked in the grooves on my old records. Records that I have bought used 35 years ago sound absolutely fabulous and I am re-enjoying music that I've not put on for a very very long time. You have to take this comment from the perspective of someone who has lived with a Linn LP12 since 1981, then a VPI SSM for the last two years, so a decent record player is not news to me. But the SME is really something else.
The only issue with the SME is its negative effect on my CD listening. I only put a CD now when I am doing house chores or in the car, which is not so good news as nearly all the new music that I have is on CD.
The power supply does not have a switch to change voltage.
Thanks for the update, Zeb. The sense of ease, and as you say, musical flow with the SME 20/12 is breathtaking. This natural flow lets one utterly "relax" and enjoy the performance. However, all the pace, rhythm, and timing is there as fine details are not obscured. I know you'll enjoy this 'table for years to come. It is VERY special.
I know a very well-informed author on the history of vintage hi fi, who just bought an SME 20 with the matching five arm. He too is so entranced that he has virtually abandoned CDs.One small issue though, the production of the 20-12 has opened SME's eyes to various possibilities which could entail an upgrading of the '20' model.....I would not be astonished to see a new version of the original '9 inch' version with the bigger platter etc.That would bring the '20' series neatly in line with the 30 series (where the same platter etc is already used on both 9inch and 12 inch decks. ) It could be a sensible move to delay a purchase of a new 20-9 for a while (or get a good second-hand one and then trade-up if the revisions do occur.
One other point, I can see why the price discrepancy between US and UK versions annoys, but I think the origin of this lies with the rather 'strict' deal that SME gives to Sumiko...I think the margins for Sumiko are tighter than for most imports. And that is because the production costs of these decks is surprisingly high.SME don't give the generous 'export' prices that most manufacturers offer. That doesn't make them bad buys,Sumiko has to fund the distribution and back-up. Who else provides the quality at a lower price?.
He too is so entranced that he has virtually abandoned CDs
A few months on, and I'm still on about 90% LP - 10% CD...
Hello Jim,
Did you have a chance to here any of the TW Acustic tables, and if yes, how do they compare to the SME 20/12? I am in the market to upgrade from my VPI SSM and my contenders (for price and practical reasons) are the SME20/12 and the TW Acustic Raven AC.
Any thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated.
Post new comment