Turntables - Vacuum System - does it help with the sound?
default -- Sun, 08/23/2009 - 07:31
Hi, Just enquiring if the vacuum system TT of moderate priced (not state of the art (like Continuum, Basis, Rockport,etc) turntables (such as Sota's higher range - Nova/Cosmos.Mil) help sonics.
Of recent I have read a comment from Paul Seydor who had the Cosmos as a long time reference (great TT as I heard it) to move to a non- vac reference such as the Basis 2100/Vector arm.
Paul if you do read this, would appreciate yours and other readers comments who have moved from a vacuum to a non-vac TT and if they wish that the new TT would have had that feature for sonic improvements?
Thanks
Nev
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Listen for yourself, then decide.
It seems like Paul is pretty high on the basis 2200 table and arm and I suspect it's the suspension/isolation that really makes the more significant difference. I would suspect that older lp's with shape/form issues would benifit more from the vaccume. I think the sota might be a more expensive package than basis and like Paul says if it matches up or beat tuntable setups costing 20 to 30k, it sure sounds like a great bargain. It will be nice to hear more from PS himself. What would he buy?
The Basis 2200 package including the power supply cost more than the Sota Cosmos with a top arm.
Basis 2200 w vector 4 arm $10800. The sota cosmos with tri planar vii or Graham phantom arm is $11400. Slightly more. I'm also considering one of these. A used or demo setup might be much cheaper.
Nev:
I switched from an Oracle Delphi to a Sota Millennia with vacuum hold down and SME V arm. I will never go back to a non-vacuum table. I really like it and it sounds great. The table platform is so stable I can open the drawer below the table and the needle will not jump. It still makes me nervous so I avoid doing it on a regular basis. I hope this helps. R/ Robert
Thanks Rob, for your insights into the Millennia, which is extremely helpful as I am not in a position to audition the Basis.
Sam, I agree with your suggestions on the warped records and would like to hear from PS for his thoughts too if he gets a chance to comment.
SN - it would be easier to decide if I could hear both units, which unfortunately is not possible sometimes o/seas.
Cheers,
Nev
After owning various VPI, Well Tempered, and Michell 'tables over the years, I now own a Cosmos Mk IV (w/ Triplanar). I'll echo Robert's comment: "I will never go back to a non-vacuum table." The Cosmos is astonishingly good for a decent price.
Decent price= $6700 for cosmos +$4700 for triplanar?
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Sam -- Tue, 08/25/2009 - 17:50
Decent price= $6700 for cosmos +$4700 for triplanar?"
You can pay more, or you can pay less. How much do you want to pay?
Thanks Sam. I guess there is probably a whole host of others (vac and non-vac) TT's to consider in that type of price range. And finally at the end of it all, it will come down to preference of taste and performance taking into account the spend on cartridge and phono-stage.
Cheers,
Nev
I just ordered a reconditioned Sota Nova. Should I have gone for the Cosmos at $2000 more? Can anyone tell me if there is a significant difference between the two. It seems that all the comnponents are the same except for the armboard.
Thanks
The Cosmos has an aluminum sub chassis vs wood for the Nova. Also, the motor on the Cosmos is attached to the sub chassis vs the Nova's motor, which is attached to the plinth. I've never been able to compare the two sonically. Hopefully, you also ordered the Cosmos armboard and SOTA reflex clamp.
Thanks for the information. I did order the reflex clamp but not the Cosmos armboard. I guess I can do that later.
Thanks for the information. I did order the reflex clamp but not the Cosmos armboard. I guess I can do that later.
By all means, get the Cosmos armboard.
Mark
I was browsing the website and came across this interesting topic. I owned a SOTA w/vacuum many years ago and enjoyed the table. Between 15 - 20 years ago I urged Basis to add vacuum to its top table and was one of the first owners of the Basis w/vacuum hold-down. I enjoyed that table for many, many years--great sound and virtually bulletproof. In my experience, Basis makes outstanding turntables. I have maybe 6000 LPs, many of them rare and highly cherished. What I am about to say will upset some manufacturers and should be an item of concern to potential purchars of vacuum hold-down. Through the years, I have read many comments on the debate of whether or not vacuum causes damage to records. I never believed it did, hence my several vacuum tables. But over the last three or four years I carefully listened to many of my records. A lot of those records were played much more, or exclusively, on one side. I observed, without exception, that the unplayed sides of these records were MUCH noisier than the sides that were frequently played. I understand there are many possible reasons for this occurrence, separate and aside from the vacuum issue. Yet I always have used a soft mat on the platter, hopefully to absorb dirt particles instead of letting the particles become embedded in the vinyl. I have always kept the platter surface very clean. I used the lowest amount of vacuum possible to hold the record down. When I play new or used records that have not frequently been played on a vacuum table, the noise levels on both sides are identical. For whatever the reason may be, I can only conclude that the vacuum hold-down does SOMETHING that ends up making the record surface noisier. I am not going to take a chance on damaging any more of my valuable records. About two years ago I switched to a non-vacuum table that uses a center and periphery clamp, with no problem at all as to noise on the frequently played side. For whatever it may be worth, I will not switch back to vacuum, even though I enjoyed the sound of the vacuum tables. Out of curiousity, I attempted to use the Basis without the vacuum, but ultimately needed to remove the periphery rubber seal to make it work properly. It sounded very good, but different, without the vacuum. It tended to sound a little "livelier" (but not brighter) without the vacuum. Many would say that the reason for this is that the vacuum is damping resonances and offers the more correct sound. Perhaps. In any event, I have been very happy with a non-vacuum table and I do not worry about damaging the records.
I find the above statement very hard to believe.
"For whatever the reason may be, I can only conclude that the vacuum hold-down does SOMETHING that ends up making the record surface noisier."
Can't find the reference but some years ago I read that a vacuum that's too strong ( is that the word for vacuums?) can leach out the plasticizer chemicals from some vinyl formulations. Maybe that's true, maybe not. My take on it was to ere on the side of caution and so I use a VPI 'HRX' record clamp and peripheral hold down ring.
Hogwash!
When I reviewed the Basis 2800 I turned off the vacuum hold down (and used a different clamp designed for non-vacuum use) and found that vacuum hold-down made a significant improvement. Note that the Basis vacuum system is very gentle, and adjustable by the user (the controller has a precision gauge on the front panel). The difference in pressure is only .5 PSI; not enough to cause damage to LPs, in my view.
The same goes for the SOTA vacuum 'tables!
Mark
Thanks to all, sorry longer replies are just getting constantly tagged as spam!
Thanks forum members for your comments.
Certainly keeping LP clean will be a priority. Robert a comforting factor that the Basis vac is gentle, as I have the same model you reviewed, but listening with only a clamp. Ordered the vac kit and await to see how it fares sonically.
Cheers,
Neville
Definitely the vacuum helps you to hear mush more into the music.
I finally got the vacuum kit for my TT and it was worth it.
If this is because it gets the LP flat, reduces cartridge chatter or helps to absorbs unnecessary energy, it definitely works for me.
I would recommend it close to a must have.
Thanks,
Neville
Well, I am definitely very late to this discussion but as regards vacuum hold-down: I believe in it if properly executed. For many years it wasn't and gave the whole idea a bad name. David Fletcher solved the problem at SOTA by employing a low continuous pressure, far too low to damage vinyl. This worked flawlessly but for one thing: the continuous pressure was too low in several cases to suck the record down to the platter initially if the record were mildly warped or worse. In order to make this happen, a higher pressure was needed to evacuate the system, but that higher pressure was high enough to damage the vinyl if kept up for a long period of time. Fletcher's solution was to add to the SOTA's vacuum system a high initial pressure, sufficient to get the record into intimate contact with the platter, then, once the system is sealed, the pressure is reduced to the very low continuous level sufficient to ensure the LP is bound to the platter but not to damage it. Though I've never used a Basis vacuum, with respect to my long experience with SOTA's vacuum hold-down, I can echo Robert Harley that the sound is ALWAYS better with the vacuum (so is the tracking--no warps!). As regards Don Salzman's claim that the unplayed side of a record gets noisier, again, absolutely no basis in reality for this claim in my (two-plus decades) experience with SOTA's vacuum hold-downs. By the way, I still consider SOTA turntables among the finest you can buy. To the extent that the Basis, for example, is superior, it's in part because of the fanatical precision with which Conti manufactures his bearings (and belts too). This is far beyond the capabilities of a small company like SOTA, and even if it could be achieved, it would considerably raise the price. But the remarkable thing is how very competitive the SOTAs remain in the company of very expensive 'tables (in my view, besting a considerable number of them, like Linns for example). As Conti once told me, the SOTAs were designed by somebody—David Fletcher—who knows quite a lot about turntable design including the importance of suspension and the application of mass and damping, not to mention where most effectively to economize when designing for a price. AJ further told me that if most designers were to study the SOTAs and learn from them, there would be far more good turntables on the market! This won't please the rigidity uber alles boys who think throwing mass and bulk at the problems solves everything, but that doesn't make it any the less true.
A long overdue post. Thanks Paul!
Hi Paul,
Thanks for explaining this so it is easy to understand too.
Neville
I have used Sota Vacuum tables extensively throughout the years, starting when I sold them while working for an audio store in the early eighties. I currently have a gen 1 Cosmos and a Star Sapphire III with additional updates. I also have two Oracle Delphis, a Transcriptors Skeleton, VPI HW-19 with a TNT platter, Fons, Thorens,Yamaha PX 3 and interestingly enough a pair of Luxman PD- 300s. Talk about excessive vacuum! When used with the optional VS pump unit the record might as well be super glued to the platter! I at one time also had a Micro RX-1500 FVG that suffered from the same plight. The Sota idea is much better. Prefer the Star as it allows you to manually adjust the pressure. The Cosmos is self sensing, more convenient but not as much control over the amount of vacuum. I believe they are quieter and yield much better and deeper bass than non-vacuum tables. If you use a good rcm noise should not be an issue.