Tube vs. SS Amps - Same stereotypes and tradeoffs for Monstered Powered Amps at Elite Price Points?
default -- Sat, 10/24/2009 - 21:09
Hello All,
I may be in position to pick up some very high end monoblock amps to drive some electrostats in time for the winter. In terms of my history and tastes, I like SS amps to drive my speakers. This, of course is based on respectable, but not ridiculous price points. I like the grip, control, dynamics, and bass response of ss. The tubes, of course IMO, do the midrange much better, but lack the other stuff. The SS amps I have enjoyed need to priced near $10K or more. At that price point the designers have gotten closer to capture the tube magic, or at least enough for me to be able to make the trade off, especially when using a tubed preamp.
Anyone hear any of the elite priced, monster powered tube amps? Compare them to expensive SS? Do the expensive tube amps close the gap to SS in terms of control, bass, etc. How close are they? Ideally, there is an amp that brings all of the virtues together, or am I dreaming?
Which brands will be worth auditioning - ARC, CJ, VTL, Joule Electra, CAT, others?
Thanks
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I believe Rogue makes a pair of tube mono-blocks in the ten grand range, using 6550s.
The ARC 610T is an incredibly special amp. It concedes very very little to monster SS (Krell, Soulution et al) in terms of control, bass, but are oh so much more magical everywhere else. If you are looking to spend that kind of budget on an amp, you owe to yourself to listen to the ARC, VTL etc.. before making a choice.
For bigger power requirements I would go SS. The likes of Soulution, FMA will keep you in good company. More neutral and truer to live interpretations of recorded music. As for tube, the higher the power, the higher the number of tubes, the higher the likelihood/chance of an error and mishap. Not to mention that certain time frame you will only get to enjoy them at 'peak' performance (after break-in), after which (loosing bias) is gradually downhill all the way. Thus, if I were to go back and do tube, SETs or lower powered ones would be my choice (with preference the 300Bs varieties using NOS W.E). I would then find myself a good set of efficient speakers and use something like the Audionote, Wavac or Lamm ML3 to drive them. They are just so much purer and natural sounding than any pentode numbers to these ears.
"For bigger power requirements I would go SS. The likes of Soulution, FMA will keep you in good company. More neutral and truer to live interpretations of recorded music.."
Pure unadulterated hogwash!
Chill up, go for your wash and listen to Rouge!
Rouge? Ya can't spell either!
Whatever.. not interested, couldn't be bothered!
Lamm ML3 at 32 wpc SET DHT, it can drive virtually most speakers (but it is ridiculously priced)
How efficient are your speakers
Many industry insiders do not recommend monster powered tube amps because of reliability issues. This includes many of the brands mentioned above. There are too many horror stories of not just the amps going out, but amps taking the speakers out with them.
Of course, one can get a couple sets of monoblock amps and a couple of sets of speakers as back ups. It could get really expensive, unfortunately.
When I've heard of speakers being damaged, it usually happens by over-driving solid state amplifiers.
It could be that the speaker cable isn't of a sufficiently heavy gauge, or the run is too long. These are possibilities. The amp has to work harder to overcome the cable's impedance in those cases. And if it's running at high volume also, that contributes too.
I think you will find ARC Reference tube power-amps have a quality of build and are almost bullet proof, and most tube-amps have soft-clipping that will protect the speakers.
Somewhat the problem I have encountered, though not as far as damaging the speakers (yet). They were generally not a problem during their first few years (from brand new), after which then there would usually be just too much time spent worrying--trouble shooting, rectifying, biasing etc2 and in the end defeats the purpose of all this which to me is ultimately--musical enjoyment. The big powered tubes I've owned over span of 30yrs were VTL300, Ichiban, ARC D115, M300, Classic 150, REF 600 mkIII, Jadis JA200. Although some were totally reliable requiring not more than just their periodic re-tubing, others were quite a pain, with some un-rectifiable (had to be shipped back to factory--hence the cost and the wait). Had better times with lower powered and SETs numbers--VTL 90 (300Bs), Audionote Kondo Ongaku, Cary 211 (805), these imo, matched to the right speakers sounded gloriously purer too. Have since moved on to SS and learn more to enjoy the music and less time worrying about equipments. It's a tough act to do considering my lengthy tube years, but there are currently quite a few recent and decent SS numbers which could manage just that.
High performance cars are a pain also. So why do people continue to covet them?
Good analogy. I guess one has to weigh the pain and pleasure if one cannot afford the redundancy. The frustration factor must be huge. Is not having the system operational for 1, 2, 3, possibly 4 months of the year worth it? Only each individual can decide.
Post of the day!
Do you guys sit around in your boxers listening to these?
Well, it's better than sitting round in your boxers, staring at your replica handbags.
Really, spammers - you need to do your research slightly more thoroughly. Trying to sell replica handbags to an audience that is almost exclusively male... your homework for tonight is finding out why we don't give a damn.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Maybe these guys got it right: Buy bags for the women to shut them up so we can sit in our boxers and listen to monster tube amps in the middle of the summer.
On a serious note, is one brand/ model design/ tube type less hot than others?
I'll pipe up! Let's get this back on track
Breuninger here- coming online with TAS- speaking-the-speak and telling the tales.
The Jadis JA-500, the Melos Gold 400 (when it's not on fire) and the reverend CJ Premier One will out 3D many SS bad boys... but to no surprise, the bass will be a little soft-shoe and the grip will be a limpid handshake. Yes, even 500 tube watts does not do what Krell 200 SS watts per channel can do in the low F's. Jacob H. of TAS, who's Wotan's I covet, says similar stuff in his excellent review summary of the Classe Omega's in TAS issue 203. All I can suggested is go for some uber tubes and see for yourself, you won't forget it. This is THE never ending story! Tubes vs. SS.
Breuninger, do you know which brand or a model of monster powered tubes amps has the best bass of its class?
Plain and simple, tubes sound better!
I agree with you in general, but nothing is "plain and simple"! If a tube amp is powerful enough to drive the speaker, it's pure magic. However, if your speakers are inefficient, like my Soundlab A1's, most tube amps sound sluggish, syrupy, with bloated bass and meek highs. If you enjoy dynamics and like to tap your foot to the rhythm, some combinations are not for you.
Having heard many systems, most tube guys do not have powerful enough amps. They either have not heard a drum cracked near them at a live show in a long, long time or do not care to have a realistic drum sound in their home.
But, of course, this is a hobby and we all have different tastes.
Get speakers that are more efficient/easier to drive. A tube amp, like any other, sounds it's best when it's not working hard.
Easier said that done. I have not heard anything better than my Soundlabs. I recently heard the $90K Focals. They were fun for a little while, but got fatiguing real quick. Overall, they are really good HiFi.
I think I am a stats guy for life.
You can also use a Tube Pre-amp with a SS Power AMP or SS Pre-amp with Tube Power Amp.
Dear Curiousmind,
If I was making bets with other people's money I would give the nod to ARC and the 610T. JV continues to go Valin on it. The last ARC I had, back when my hair was the same shade of brown all the time, had very good bass driving the finicky Infinity RS2bs. The Jadis JA-500? Very good and tight in the bass but when I want to booze it up and dance with Madonna I plug in the Krell KMA400s.
Owning big tubes is like getting a masters degree... you don't have to have it but no one will take you serious without one.
Peter B.
Great analogy. I feel like I need another graduate degree... Except it's only for me to "see more/ hear more".