Thoughts on Improving my Two Channel listening?
TXGiant -- Mon, 12/18/2006 - 10:07
Over the years, I have built a system that I have been very pleased with. My system is used for multi-channel and two channel listening. I've recently been helping a friend build a high end two channel system and I've come to realize the short-comings of my system for two channel listening. So, now I am on a mission to improve my situation. Here is what I currently have:
Sunfire Theatre Grand 2 pre/pre
Sunfire Signature 7 (rated 400 wps @ 8 ohms)
Rotel 1072 CD player
Denon 2910 Universal player
Vandersteen 3A Signature speakers
Vandersteen VCC-5 center channel
Vandersteen VCM-1 surrounds
On my recent journey I have encountered some knowledgable assistance from local high end dealers. Since I am going to continue to use my room for home theater and occassionally enjoy multi-channel listening I am not going to scrap certain pieces totally. ( Sunfire Sig Amp is practillay brand new and I am pleased with it.)
The direction I am considering is adding a two channel pre-amp and using my processor in the "tape loop" or "processor" mode. Bypassing the processor for all two channel app's and using it only for home theater and multi-channel listening.
Additionally, I am considering adding a high-end CD player. The Rotel is a good player and was a great value. I think in order to get measurably better I may need to take a fairly large step. The pieces I am considering adding are:
Audio Research LS 26 pre-amp
Audio Research CD3 MKII
I am hoping to improve the dynamics and soundstaging of listening now while at the same time buying pieces that I can use to build my system around in the future. I know system matching and synergy is important so I am hoping that someone more knowledgable, without an agenda, can offer some input as to how the new pieces may "work" with the Vandersteen 3A's and my Sunfire amp.
If you got to the end of this rediculously long post, I appreciate it :) .
Thanks for your help.
-John
Good choices, but unfortunately your current rig is at the level where improvements will be subtle (albeit often important). Will your dealer let you borrow his demo ARC pieces (one at a time) to see if they do what you want?
That's a good question, I will ask. If the answer is yes, which do I try first, the CD player or the pre amp?
Sweat, persistence, and endless attention to detail.
I'm of the opinion that adding a high quality preamp such as the ARC will have a bigger impact on your enjoyment of music in your system.
Phil Lam
Sonic Spirits Inc.
http//www.sonicspirits.com
I'm going to follow PhilNYC's lead here—though the Sunfire controller is a fine piece there is no doubt in my mind that a fine stereo preamp will yield huge benefits. I would aslo take a serious look at upgrading your digital playback gear. Again, good as the Denon and Rotel items are, a really fine CD/SACD player will reward you mightily. The Sunfire amp and Vandertsteens should really come alive with these changes.
I really appreciate your advice. I have auditioned both pieces at home and I am amazed at the potential of my system! The first piece I tried was the CD player. The ARC CD3 payed immediate benefits. While the Rotel was a fine player the dynamics and soundstaging of the ARC are dramatically better- as well they should be for almost $5K more! The good news is, my dealer had a pre-owned CD# MkII for $3000 which made that purchase decision much easier.
My dealer then came over and set up the ARC LS26. I have to admit that I had no idea what to expect from adding a pre-amp. How could a line-level piece impact the system? Well, I found out quickly. PhilNYC is prophetic- or very experienced!- the sound eminating from my speakers was unlike any I'd ever heard before. The soundstage was clarified, the bass was cleaned up and had more punch. The high end was much smoother and less grainy and harsh. Together with the CD3 the results were almost breath taking.
Mr. Garcia was right, my Sunfire and Vandersteens have great potential. I haven't pulled the trigger on the pre-amp yet, but I think I will in the very near future.
Sweat, persistence, and endless attention to detail.
Since 1988 I’m using the surround sound system from Yamaha (old DSP-1, now E-1000) with my Levinsons, nor in the signal path, of course.
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/av/products/ht/bsr/bsr1.html
(5) http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/A_year_of_surround_sound_A4.pdf
Hafler system – Ralph Hodges – Stereo Review – Apr/1971;
Ralph Hodges – time-delay systems – Stereo Review – Oct/1978;
http://stereophile.com/features/74/index12.html
(6) Peter W. Mitchell – Time-delay systems – Stereo Review, Oct/1978:
(7) http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/Mue/mue2003/people/ken/ken.htm
Ken C. Pohlmann – Surround Sound – Stereo Review, Nov/1989;
(8) J. Gordon Holt – fundador da revista Stereophile;
- In Search Of The Audio Abode – The Hi-fi House;
- Space…the Final Frontier - Stereophile – March, 1994;
- www.stereophile.com/features/74/index.html
- SSfM - Stereophile, Sep/98;
(9) S.C.Foster – Bring the Depth of Cathedral Sound Into Your Living Room - Hi-Fi Stereo
Buyers’Guide – Nov/Dec, 1976;
(10) Floyd E.Toole – The future of Stereo – Audio, May, 1997;
http://caa-aca.ca/PEIWEBpage/PEI_Toole.htm
http://www.google.com.br/search?hl=pt-BR&q=%22Floyd+E.+Toole%22&meta=
Lawrence B. Johnson-Toole of the Trade – Stereophile Guide to Home Theater-Jul/Aug,2001
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt1.pdf
http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=58
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/28/index.html
(11) http://www.rane.com/par-h.html
http://www.htforum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29
(12) http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/tomholman/
(13) Áudio & Vídeo – jul/04 - Como vamos fazer: vamos para o multicanal?
Aren't Sunfire amps Class D of some kind?
According to Sunfire:
“… CIRCUIT DESCRIPTION – AMPLIFIER SECTION
The input stage is a low noise FET operational amplifier operated in a forced Class A single ended move. The output of this stage drives balanced Class A level shifters and a balanced Class A voltage stage that swings the full rail of 250 volts peak to peak. The remainder of the current gain stages run full balanced with a constant VCE of 6 volts to the loudspeaker. It is heavily biased into the Class A. A region for small signals and Class AB region for large signals. …”
http://www.sunfire.com/TGA7400.html
Sounds like a bunch of voodoo to me. The way I figure it, if Carver was really onto a no-compromise solution to heavy, high-power amps, more companies would have been trying to duplicate it by now. I can hardly ever recall a Sunfire amp being reviewed by a critical audio mag, and neither do I recall Sunfire doing much marketing in them either.
According to RH, we may be seeing a review in an upcoming Perfect Vision or Absolute Sound in the near future. The Sunfire amps use a different technology to achieve, largely, the principles as Class D amplifiers. Bob Carver has used this similar approach for at least 20+ years, and I'd say it would be fair to say that he has it down to a science. Apparently, RH and Bob Carver have a personal relationship. In RH's open letter a couple of issues ago he was very complimentary of BC's accomplishments and products.
I've read a number of your posts, AR, and I think you would be impressed with the value/cost/performance that Sunfire amps deliver. When matched properly they are quite impressive.
Sweat, persistence, and endless attention to detail.
I've owned two cinema grands for 10yrs, and I'm convinced that they are the weakest link in my system. Loads of power, but they sound slow in the bass, and there is a veil over the sound IMHO. I'm looking to get rid of them in the next two months to be frank. It's like anything else, his strategy would have been long imitated by the high end had the products really been that good. By far better than your average Japanese manufacturer, but I wouldn't call them high end.
For what its worth, I owned an original Sunfire stereo amp which I just sold and replaced with the last Signature version (Sunfire now has a new series which is the same amp without the power meter). I've noticed a significant diference in quickness and clarity.
Since I started this thread I have purchased the Audio Research LS26 pre amp and that has made a huge difference in bass articulation. Obviously, the upgrade to the ls26 would have had improved my sound regardless of which amp I was using. I am blown away by the sound of my system. Adding the Audio Research products and bypassing the processor has payed huge dividends. So, for now, this story has a very happy ending!
I have learned one VERY important lesson: when I go to audition speakers in the future, I will focus as much (if not more) on which pre amp is being used in the set up as I will on the amplifier. I really didn't understand the impact that a high quality pre amp makes in a system. Kudos to PhilNYC, he was dead on.
Sweat, persistence, and endless attention to detail.
I few a system from the back of the system to the front. Choose speakers, then amp, then preamp, then source. Basically, the last component in the chain has the greatest limiting factor on the sound. You can put a world class preamp in front of a pair of $100 speakers, and the sound will be terrible. All improvements up the chain are limited by those that follow. So to reach the full potential of your speakers and amp, you do need a very good preamp.
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