On the second hand market what can beat a wilson MAXX2 ?
samuel33 -- Tue, 09/04/2007 - 22:11
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1999 - 2011 NextScreen. All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
You want to buy second hand because you think that is the best way to maximize your money?
I think there may be wiser ways to spend 25k...
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
This is so hmm... “audiophile”. You heard the W/P 8 but thought it was boomy so you will buy, sight unseen and unheard, the next model in line which, based on FR and RTA is even more boomy and less controllable then the W/P. You say you work with your speakers? What king of work do you do? Why would it be "better" to work on something like a MAXX2? You would buy a used MAXX2 without hearing it even though it measures like crap but you will not buy the a new Mini2 because you cannot hear it even though it measure amazingly well. Very interesting. :roll:
You should not buy anything unless you can hear it first yourself. Even if you have to fly to the US to do so. $25K is a lot of money to spend unwisely.
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
for 25k, I do think the Mini II may be your very best option on the market.
in what ways do you work with your speakers?
ws
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
There's also Magico's new V3, but there doesn't yet seem to be much info on it. I just checked Magico's website, and Sound by Singer down here in New York City is a dealer, as well as Goodwin's High End in Massachusetts.
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
hi samuel33,
I wouldn't make any assumption. the Mini II goes very low, lower then the WP...
I would buy any model of Magico over any model of Wilson, any day.
You can also look into the new Revel Ultima II series, but I must confeess, I have not yet listened to the new Ultima II series.
WSLam wrote:hi samuel33,
I wouldn't make any assumption. the Mini II goes very low, lower then the WP...
I would buy any model of Magico over any model of Wilson, any day.
You can also look into the new Revel Ultima II series, but I must confeess, I have not yet listened to the new Ultima II series.
If an owner of mini live in montreal or around and gentle enough to make me listen to the mini : it would be with great pleasure.
By the way wilson audio is not in my shopping list anymore....
I just heard the V3 in Taiwan high-end show. Assuming it is a “poor mini version” is completely wrong, IMO. The speakers were simply amazing and had much greater dynamic range then the Mini. I was blown away. The Mini is still probably a bit more refine but the overall presentation of the V3 was shockingly good and to me just as impressive as the Mini. I am no longer sure that the Mini is, overall, better. It has its qualities but so is the V3 . The Mini do look good, that is for sure.
I also listened to the V3, and I do think they are the speakers to consider in that price bracket. After I listened to the V3, I actually told my friends that Magico has created something that will make the Mini II an even harder sell for *most* people.
V3 gives you 'more', but slightly worse in every aspect, except quantity. If you listen carefully, you will hear that the V3 is just not as coherent as the Mini II is. There is a sense of 'togetherness' with the Mini II that is simply not there with the V3.
But again, I would still buy *any* Magico over any Wilson.
I am not sure I will say it is a bit “worse” in every aspect. It had, IMO, a greater ease and an amazing bottom end. Surpassing the Mini in that sense.
Roy Pan wrote:I am not sure I will say it is a bit “worse” in every aspect. It had, IMO, a greater ease and an amazing bottom end. Surpassing the Mini in that sense.
I do think they are 'worse' in every aspect. That is of course, imho. The V3 sound less 'magico' compare to the Mini II and the Model 6... the V3 sounds a tad like 'other' speakers, albeit very well engineered ones. The sense of ease comes from the less razor sharp precision you get with models like the Mini II and Model 6. and the bottom end is simply 'more', but to my ears, less tuneful. Hence my original comment that they are 'more' but less imo.
I think it will be interesting to figure out why the V3 is cheaper then the Mini II. Is it simply because of construction cost alone? or did Magico price accordingly to the sound?
I could not disagree more. The V3 sound is clearly a Magico sound, IMO. It also has the “no- nonsense” feel that all Magico products have. You can see how cost was considered when you look at the simpler shape of the V3. Also, it is clear to everyone who has a Mini how expensive the stands are. That is part of the uniqueness of the Mini. It was built without any cost considerations and the refinement of the Mini is unparallel. But, there is a lot to say for the V3 proposition. I have to say that I am rethinking my upgrade path here. Yes, the Minis are very special but the V3 may be just as rewarding but in other ways.
Roy, I never say that the V3 are not "magico", but to my ears, there is less of that Magico 'magic', just *ever* so slightly. By no means are they bad! I will take a pair any day and would imagine I would be very happy with them. E.g., I think I may prefer the V3 over the Mini I, but I would still prefer the Mini II over the V3.
Alon Wolf is too much of perfectionist to come up with a speaker that is not 'Magico'... and that was not what I meant.
ws
samuel33 wrote:Hi
I have 20 000/25 000 bucks to spend in second hand speaker.
It seems -for now and for me- that the best shot might be the Wilson Maxx 2 at this range of price.
What do you think?
Is there on the market a speaker as intresting as the MAXX2 ?
Hi Samuel 33,
In the wrong room or with the wrong system, the bass of the MAXX II can sound thunder-like, the lower midrange too full- the uper midrange lack transparency, accuracy and presence (2000-3500Hz). The tweeter doesn't sweet or airy as the diamond- Berilium or even ScanSpeak's ring radiator.
In spite of that, the MAXX II are very good speakers.
I would also consider second hand Acapella Violon MK III, Lumen-white whiteflame "d", MBL 101E, Technical Audio Devices Model 1.
I think it is a somewhat a philosophical questions. Which one to prefer. The Mini or the V3. I guess it would be nice to have it all, the quantity and the quality, but the price, I am sure, will be above my head (I rather not imagine M3.5 cost). I do think that the V3, in its price range and its category, is a real winner. I have walked the show and heard so many “same all same”. The V3 are in a class by themselves (They did not have the Mini 2 at the show).
> What do you think?
Without a clear statement of what you after and why it is hard to be confident of offering useful advice.
If you want accurate sound (which might conflict with "interesting" and certainly conflicts with the sound of Wilson speakers) and want to spend around 20k on a pair of speakers then I would suggest having a listen to a pair of Adam MP1s. This is inevitably an active speaker because your price point is way past that where speakers that primarily strive to be accurate will be active. Unlike the Magico that has been suggested by some, this is a 4 way speaker designed to cover the full audible range.
I would expect you to struggle to find a second hand example. Although Adam speakers have been around since the 90s there are very few second hand examples on ebay and the like.
Have to agree with most people here - I am not a fan of the Maxx - at all. A friend of mine has a pair and has been shuffling the rest of his system for the past few years trying to get a decent sound out of them, with no success. I think he's at the Halcro stage now (after having gone through Levinsons, Krells and go knows what else). He also bought the massive sub-woofer columns, which only serve to make everything sound even worse.
The active Acapella Violins are pretty good, though I can hear the horn.
However, as an ex would-be musician which used to own an 8-track recording studio (analogue of course), I wonder why you would chose bass quantity over bass quality. There used to be studios that used the original Quad 57 as a main monitor!
My 2 cents' worth ..
The real interesting part in all that is that none of the Wilson speakers actually go very low. If you look at the freq. plot at the top of this page you can see that in correlation to 1K output, the Maxx starts to roll off steeply at 60Hz and it is -6db at 40Hz! One can argue that the Mini actually have “more” bass then the Maxx. So it is not just quality it is also the quantity. :shock:
Dan H, who are you? do you have any association with Magico?
If you are, then listen and improve and stop defending..... Many people, including myself, do want to buy Magico's speakers
I think the question is who are you M-Channels? You have hijacked the M6 thread, gave wrong and in my mind malice information about your whereabouts and now you are accusing Dan of wrong doing? Why don’t you tell us who you are and where, you heard the Magicos? I have been trying to hear the M6 and the Mini 2 in Japan for a long time. I wonder how you got to do so when, apparently, they do not have them here. You are entitle to an opinion but you need to work on you story telling. It is hard to take you seriously. You probably notice that no one is on the M6 thread anymore. You manage to kill it and you are doing it again to this thread.
"Many people, including myself, do want to buy Magico's speakers"
You sure have a funny way of going about it.
Roy Pan wrote:I think the question is who are you M-Channels? You have hijacked the M6 thread, gave wrong and in my mind malice information about your whereabouts and now you are accusing Dan of wrong doing? Why don’t you tell us who you are and where, you heard the Magicos? I have been trying to hear the M6 and the Mini 2 in Japan for a long time. I wonder how you got to do so when, apparently, they do not have them here. You are entitle to an opinion but you need to work on you story telling. It is hard to take you seriously. You probably notice that no one is on the M6 thread anymore. You manage to kill it and you are doing it again to this thread.
"Many people, including myself, do want to buy Magico's speakers"
You sure have a funny way of going about it.I don't like to write bad things about dealers that are run by bunch of nice people, so I'll never give out the name.
But if you want to buy the M6, please go ahead. And if you're really sure of buying them, then why are you hanging around in the forum and read others' opinions. Go and listen the for yourself, which you need to do.
Dear M-Channels, I am sorry you are frustrated with me and I understand you are holding a grudge. After all, I did point out to some major holes in your stories.
I am not about to get in to any debate with an imposter. Which to me you are clearly one. In regards to my motives, I thought that they are clear. I am a “big” fan of Mr. Wolf work and own a few of his speakers. I know him for many years and as an engineer myself, with a vast interest in audio, I appreciate his approach to loudspeaker building. I am a loyal customer and a friend. If you have anything to bring to the table, make sure it is genuine. I have very little patient for BS.
Dan H wrote:Dear M-Channels, I am sorry you are frustrated with me and I understand you are holding a grudge. After all, I did point out to some major holes in your stories.
I am not about to get in to any debate with an imposter. Which to me you are clearly one. In regards to my motives, I thought that they are clear. I am a “big” fan of Mr. Wolf work and own a few of his speakers. I know him for many years and as an engineer myself, with a vast interest in audio, I appreciate his approach to loudspeaker building. I am a loyal customer and a friend. If you have anything to bring to the table, make sure it is genuine. I have very little patient for BS.Well Dan! you can just not read my post. What do you think? I never exactly write all bad things about all of his products.
Hi Roy Pan,
I am rather with Wslam on the comparison between the Mini2 and the Model 3. Would choose the Mini, but I agree that the Model 3 are quite an achievement for the price... and are fully "magico".
If you are based in Taiwan or Japan, you should do a quick trip to Sound chamber in HK: they have both the Model 3, Model 6 and the Mini2 on permanent demo. Listening to the 3 of them on the same day would probably be the easiest to build an opinion.
Can you stop talking on EVERY thread about the magico ?!
Worse than SPAM. :roll:
Are you paid each time you write the word "magico" or "mini2" ?
We all know that you are totally servile towards Alon woolf but there are limits even in fawning (or crawling?)
Samuel,
I don't know who you address your message... I can just add that personally I don't have Magico speakers and am the happy owner of Evolution Acoustics MM3 that I received 2 months ago: I . This doesn't prevent me to say good things on other brands (like Magico) if their products are also excellent.
Sorry, but Wilson is just not to my taste. If you want a great speaker for cheap, I would rather buy a new pair of Usher Be-20 for less than 10k (in Asia, great value for money) than getting a cheap second hand Maxx2. Feel free to buy Maxx2 if you believe it is good value for money, after all, it is your ears you should trust... maybe you like boomy mid bass.
PS: if you are about investing serious money, listen also to some Sonus Faber, Ascendo, Duke, TAD, MBL, Kharma, Von Schweikert, Evolution Acoustics rather than buying based on "brand image" and forums opinion.
[This forum is too corrupt to get a chance to have my post inside.
This ole hobby of ours really does crack me up. Wilson speakers have received no shortage of accolades for years by both critics and owners alike. Now they are being written off, and no one is really stopping to question why the performance deficiencies are only being pointed out now. If Wilson speakers actually are crap, then something is really wrong here! How do we explain all the positive reviews by Golden Ear. Robert Harley claims that the Maxx has world class bass reproduction. He reaped just as much praise on the Watt/Puppy 7 - this doesn't exactly correlated to that FR chart at all. Read the reviews and take your pick:
A) The chart WSLam submitted is bogus
B) Robert Harley is deaf
I'd really like to hear Harley's response to the chart, because this all feels like such a sham.
The chart is from Stereophile.
The full measurements can be found here:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/805wilson/index4.html
I don't think you need to go that far by comparing Stereophile's measurement with Mr. Harley's review for 'inconsistency'. Just look at Stereophile's review by itself.
That's why many will say 'measurements' do not reveal everything. :D
Audiophile Realist wrote:This ole hobby of ours really does crack me up. Wilson speakers have received no shortage of accolades for years by both critics and owners alike. Now they are being written off, and no one is really stopping to question why the performance deficiencies are only being pointed out now. If Wilson speakers actually are crap, then something is really wrong here! How do we explain all the positive reviews by Golden Ear. Robert Harley claims that the Maxx has world class bass reproduction. He reaped just as much praise on the Watt/Puppy 7 - this doesn't exactly correlated to that FR chart at all. Read the reviews and take your pick:
A) The chart WSLam submitted is bogus
B) Robert Harley is deaf
I'd really like to hear Harley's response to the chart, because this all feels like such a sham.
WSLam wrote:The chart is from Stereophile.
The full measurements can be found here:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/805wilson/index4.html
I don't think you need to go that far by comparing Stereophile's measurement with Mr. Harley's review for 'inconsistency'. Just look at Stereophile's review by itself.
That's why many will say 'measurements' do not reveal everything. :D
I'd just like someone to rationalize the comments made on this speaker. Measurements may not reveal everything, but with situations like this I can understand the selective use of them. It is amazing that no one at TAS has stepped into this thread to explain the love of Wilson and specifically the Stereophile review!
Maybe, just maybe, the Maxx2 just works in Harley's room/setup? Room has such a big effect on the outcome, and every room is different.
I don't think we as readers need to reviewers to 'justify' their findings. I am sure a lot of people find the Maxx2 to be 'good sounding'. I just happen to be one of those who has never been impressed by any Wilson speakers, and it so happens there are measurements available from Stereophile which nicely backup my personal dislikes.
Looking at that curve, that would be one hell of a frequency correction to make on both ends of the spectrum, corrections that would make other speakers some pretty damn bad IMO. But I'll give it to you, as far-fetched as it seems to me. All Harley has to do is say that his room/system compensates for these massive deficiencies. Altogether though, the undeniable fact is that the colorations are gross compared to the Mini.
Philosophically, what is the point of a "reviewer" if they don't have to back up their points of view? What makes them different from advertisers, if they have no accountability? If I say that product X makes a massive difference in a system, shouldn't there be a simple test to attempt to achieve objectivity? TAS relies on no instrument other than the faith of its readership, except for when the instrument can back them up (selective use of measurements in reviews).
I think that at the very least a reviewer is obligated to provide a response to the Stereophile measurements of some kind - even if it is to say that the poor measurements did not "somehow" have a negative impact on the listening experience. I can understand someone saying that the problems in fr response did not detract from their enjoyment, that is, accepting that neutrality takes a back seat. But no response at all is just ridiculous.
I went to the link and read the measurement section on the Wilson Maxx 2. The first thing he says is that the measurements were taken in the reviewers room. The reviewer noted that his room had a large amout of bass suck out at the start of the article. But still, the measurement is at 0 dB at 35 Hz.
Audio is funny. Obviously Magico is the cat's meow. In a year everyone will be off discussing the next great speaker and Wilson will still be making and selling great speakers at an outrageous price which the buyers will willingly pay.
Todd Bin wrote:I went to the link and read the measurement section on the Wilson Maxx 2. The first thing he says is that the measurements were taken in the reviewers room. The reviewer noted that his room had a large amout of bass suck out at the start of the article. But still, the measurement is at 0 dB at 35 Hz.
These are anechoic measurements not in-room (Gated). They are 0db at 35Hz only because the bass is elevated 6 db. If these were linear they would be 6 db down at 35Hz.
Quote:Audio is funny. Obviously Magico is the cat's meow. In a year everyone will be off discussing the next great speaker...
A latecomer? We have been reading comments like these 3-4 of years ago when the Magicos first arrived…
Quote: and Wilson will still be making and selling great speakers at an outrageous price which the buyers will willingly pay.
Not so sure about this anymore. My local Wilson dealer told me that he has not sold even one pair of WP8 this year.
The accolades heaped on speakers from Wilson (especially Watt Puppies, and more especially the older versions), Magico and Revel are simply beyond my comprehension. These speakers represent, in my opinion, all that is wrong with current high-end audio.
I wish I liked such speakers; life would be considerably easier.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
What specifically do you object to in Wilson, Revel, and Magico? It's an odd and interesting viewpoint that these speakers represent "all that is wrong with current high-end audio."
I ask this not to provoke an argument; rather, I'm curious as to what you think is the ideal approach to loudspeaker design.
Robert:
I must begin for thanking you for such a gentlemanly response to what I realize was a controversial comment, one which could have been misconstrued as being antagonistic.
In short, the speakers I mentioned typify what I think of as "modern hi-fi sound." Despite their obvious stengths - - flat frequency response, full-range performance, to name two - - when I listen to them I always feel like I am listening to a recording; they never give me a sense of real-life music. An article I am currently working on will touch on some of the reasons why this so; these include a lack of coherence (a result of a multiplicity of drivers), the need for high-power amplification (which to my ear, rarely if ever sound right), and a lack of natural dynamics. To put it another way, they (along with YG Acoustic, JM Labs, etc.) represent the ultimate in studio monitor-like sound, which to my ear sounds cold, analytical, and lifeless.
As you may have surmised, I prefer horn speakers (though certainly not all horns), single-driver speakers, SET amps and analogue. My reference system is entirely from Shindo - -Shindo Garrard 301 turntable, Shindo Giscours preamp, Shindo Cortese amp, and Shindo Latour speakers (the latter using two field coil drivers in a resonant cabinet).
Regards,
Larry Borden
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Robert:
Read some of the commentary on Shindo gear, and note how significantly (IMO) it differs from most reviews of mainstream gear:
An excerpt from Jeff Day:
Quote:The full Shindo system costs more than my first home did so it had better deliver the musical goods. It does. For the sorts of things I value in music reproduction, the Shindo big rig is the most impressively musical system I have ever heard - and by no small margin! This is the sort of performance audiophiles and music lovers strive all their lives to achieve but most people never obtain it. Yet it is possible as the big Shindo system demonstrates. It has it all musically and sonically. The first thing I noticed was an effortless ability to portray music in an utterly natural, living and breathing, life-like and life-size manner. Matt says that a lot of that has to do with the ultra-low distortion electronics and highly sensitive Latour speakers but trust me, there's a lot more to it than that. I've heard lots of low-distortion high-sensitivity systems and they can't do what the Shindo rig can. The timbre of instruments was absolutely convincing, with a tonal purity and tactile correctness that was positively breathtaking. The music was infused with deeply hued tonal colors that lent an unparalleled level of musical drama to the tunes. There was lots of natural detail in evidence, which gave an intimate, close-to-the-performance feel to the music.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/mlroadtour1/roadtour_2.html
And from Mike Lavorgna:
Quote:And today, I bagged a beast, perhaps the most elusive of all - the music-maker. This all-Shindo system is the first hifi I've ever experienced that delivered music directly to my personal passageways. From the first song to the last (7+ hours later) and every one in-between, I was treated to music in all its glory. On tap. Never once -- and I'd like to stress not only how enjoyable the absence was but also how rare of an event in my experience -- did I think about anything to do with audiophile stuff. I was not impressed by the lows or the highs as being separate and distinct from the musical event. There was no sense of soundstage holography or placement of musicians in the room. No 'ohs' or 'ahs', no fireworks. Nothing jumped out and stood apart from the music. This is not an impressive system that way. Have you ever heard a system make music sound like it's got some extra stuff hanging on it? Dressed up like a Douglas fir in December, with stuff that sparkles and impresses as soon as you hear the first notes? Tinsel? If you like aural excess and sound accessorizing, Shindo is not for you. If, on the other hand, you want your music to make the impression, you're in like Flint.
Within you and without you, the Shindo Latour sounds like no other speaker I've heard. Resolute and fast, detailed and dynamic, with nary a hint of mud, sludge, dust or grain. At the same time, it is as fat as your music requires and seamless from double bass to piccolo to triangle to tympani. It's all those nursery-rhyme opposites rolled up into one - the son of Jack and Joan Sprat, Goldie Locks' choice. The delicately balanced transducer.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/roadtour4/roadtour4.html
Regards,
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Thanks for the reply, Larry. That description of the Shindo system parallels my experience with the Magico Ultimate, a $250k horn system driven by 8 300B amplifiers (one per driver) with line-level crossovers. I described that system in an article about three years ago after hearing it the home of a San Francisco audiophile.
In the article, I speculated on the damage done by speaker-level crossover filtering, as well as the reduction in distortion mechanisms that take place when the electrical, magnetic, and mechanical forces are reduced by an order of magnitude with a speaker of 100+ dB sensitivity.
I've had very little exposure to such systems, but when I've heard them I've recognized some fundamental advantages to them.
Thanks for the reply Robert. I regrettably never got to hear the Magico Ultimate. It has some design elements that I do not - - in pinciple - - agree with, but without hearing it I of course cannot comment as to the effectiveness of the implementation.
The point I was trying to express is that there are two markedly different approaches; one seem to focus more on the individual sonic attributes, the other the sonic "whole." While the attiributes of the first approach are indeed worthy, it is my opinion that in trying to achieve them, the baby has been thrown away with the bath water. This realization required me to let go of a boat-load of preconceived notions, which is of course never easy to do. But the new path I follow has been far more rewarding than the one that preceded it.
Best regards,
Larry Borden
Editor, Stereo Times
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Dan H wrote:[These are anechoic measurements not in-room (Gated). They are 0db at 35Hz only because the bass is elevated 6 db. If these were linear they would be 6 db down at 35Hz.
Here is what he says in the first paragraph. I know it says anechoic below the graph. At best it is ambiguous. Maybe RH would like to clarify as he liked these speakers and the X2.
"Ultimately, I decided that, rather than have the speaker shipped to my home for measurement, I would travel to the speaker. This would have the advantage of allowing me to perform some measurements in Michael Fremer's listening room; the downside would be that not all tests would be practicable"
Gated measurements can be perform in any room. I suggest you do some reading. Perhaps JA “Measuring Loudspeakers†series of articles will be a good place to start (http://stereophile.com/features/99/).
I know what I heard in my listening room from the MAXX 2, and no graph is going to get me to change my opinion. If the graph you reference suggests that the MAXX 2's bass performance is somehow deficient, then it's measuring the wrong thing.
robert_harley6 wrote:I know what I heard in my listening room from the MAXX 2, and no graph is going to get me to change my opinion. If the graph you reference suggests that the MAXX 2's bass performance is somehow deficient, then it's measuring the wrong thing.
What a strange thing to say… How do you propose to measure the “right thing�
What I'm saying is that one cannot make absolute judgments about a loudspeaker's performance based on one measurement taken in a particular room. Some on this forum have extrapolated that graph to suggest that the MAXX 2's bass is somehow problematic.
I should have said that the measurement is misleading, at best.