Suitable amps for Usher Be-718
Nicholas.Bedworth -- Wed, 11/12/2008 - 20:27
Anyone have experiences they'd like to share about driving the Usher Be-718 speakers Robert reviewed in TAS 176? I'd like to use it with low-power tube amps, such as the Primaluna DiaLogues, which have strong bass performance amongst their virtues.
The Usher distributor mentioned mediocre bass performance with tubes, and therefore recommended solid state amps, but of course who knows if this advice reflected upon the character of a particular amp, rather than tube amps in general.
U.S. versions of the Be-718 are available used for $1700-2000 asking, and I have a medium-sized listening area, so this seemed like a good choice.
Thanks!
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This won't help, but I've used the Audio Research 300.2 and the conrad-johnson Premier 350. Now I'm using an Onkyo receiver. All are solid state.
The Be-718s are sufficiently revealing to make amplifier choice a concern. Frankly, I thought the 300.2 sounded overdamped in the bass (normally a virtue of class D in my book, but not in my room with this speaker). Based on that, I could see a tube amp working if it isn't too 'tubey' in the bass.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
I power my new Usher Be-718's with an Ayre V3 power amp (100 watts) and is is plenty ballsy and a fantastic match! Still breaking the speakers in but I'm very impressed. I'm hoping a bit more midrange detail emerges as they break in but the bass and treble are excellent. My preamp is a C-J Premiere 17LS and I use a Cambridge Azur 840 CD player with Nordost speaker wire and Siltech cables.
Tom,
Thanks for the comments. I've got an Onkyo TX-DS 989 on hand, about 130 Wpc as I recall, possibly more in stereo-only mode. How do the Usher's sound on the Onkyo? I suspect that Spectral 180 or 360's would work very well, too.
Nick
Nicholas Bedworth, CTO
DigitalDirect Development Corporation
www.digitaldirect.com
Nicholas Bedworth
DigitalDirect Media Services, LLC Text/voice 1.808.372.2883 (GMT -10) nicholas [dot] bedworth [at] digitaldirect [dot] com (nicholas.bedworth@digitaldi)
You might want to consider the new Cambridge Audio 840 preamp and amplifier. They offer a lot of performance for the money. A full review appears in the January issue (which mails in two weeks).
Thank you! Reading up on them right now. And I know how much you like their CD player.
Is the amp you reviewed the 840 A (120 W) or the 840 W (200 W)?
Nicholas Bedworth
DigitalDirect Media Services, LLC Text/voice 1.808.372.2883 (GMT -10) nicholas [dot] bedworth [at] digitaldirect [dot] com (nicholas.bedworth@digitaldi)
I have the Onkyo TX-SR805. It sounds very good, although I don't think (at $599!) it is the last word in treble air. The Be-718s can deliver exceptional treble, and the Onkyo doesn't quite do it. But, I wanted to mix the 718s with a sub, and the Audyssey system in the Onkyo really helps with integration of a sub.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Hi, My name is Tom. My wife and I have auditoned the Usher Be-718's several times using SS and tube electronics of various brands, types, qualities, etc.
SS will do what SS typically does for speakers. (generally)
Tubes will do what tubes typically do for speakers. (generally)
They are at most 87dB, if not 85dB as measued by John Atkinson in Stereophile recently, so they do require power on tap; be it SS or tube. Even if the volume that you listen at is very soft, as we do for many reasons, the speakers perform differently when conencted to 250WPC vs. 80, etc. as you know. You can tell the power is there, or not, as you know.
I have read every review on them that I could and in some aspects about this concern especially. Every review states at some point that they just came alive or did this or did that (much better) with LOTS of power applied to them, with the cases in point all being SS component power amps. Coincidence ? Not likely. High power and good quality tubes sound great too, as we both listened to a few times. Keep in mind that some tubes bring out more of the treble or the mids or the bass, etc. so that can strongly influence the sound from them to your liking or not.
I asked a similar question / post on here about which SE tube amps would be good with them ? Robert Harley replied (basically, not word for word)that he strongly discourages using an SE tube amp due to low power and low damping factor, but that he spoke highly of the Pass Labs integrated (SS) that has the needed power on tap with many of the SE tube sound traits.
Perhaps a Parsound A21 power amplifier for about $2K with a good tube preamp, etc. if you want the (at least somewhat) refined and quality power on tap with the sound of tubes too. Just an idea, not an order of course, hope it helps.
I think Tom's point about power may be key. All the configurations I've used have been over 200 wpc (I have the Onkyo in bi-amp mode). I've heard them do their magic with Usher's own power amp, which is 150 wpc (SS), so you may not need to go crazy on power. But a low-powered tube set up may not be ideal.
The Parasound is a good suggestion, too, though perhaps out of your price range once you add a pre-amp.
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
It's the Cambridge 840W amplifier (200Wpc). Lowish-sensitivity speakers really benefit from putting 200W or more behind them, particularly in dynamics and bass definition.
Thought I might chime in...I haven't visited here prior but I am searching hi and low about amplification for the Be-718's...I have used mine with both an Arcam AVR350 (125 watts) and Rogue 150 (150 tubed watts) mono blocks. The speakers sound good with both, however it was when I experimented with bi-amping the Arcam (using taps 6 and 7 to create 200 watts per channel) that the speaker became a muse! Night and Day...I still enjoy the speaker with the Rogue amps but that system has significantly better ansilary equipment and still can't compete with the Arcam bi amped at 200 watts.
my 2 cents
I'll probably go with Pflash's DAC and a Spectral DMA-160 or 250 stereo amp, Looks like they definitely like lots of power. With an Onkyo receiver (something like 150 Wpc) you can hear things start to come apart somewhat during more intense musical passages. Even with mid-fi electronics, the Usher is fabulous.
Keep in mind that you need to use Spectral or MIT cable with the Spectral power amplifiers. The amplifiers have a bandwidth of 3MHz and can oscillate with some loudspeaker loads if the output isn't filtered by a networked cable. If you think the Be-718 is fabulous with an AVR, wait until you hear them with the Berkeley DAC and a Spectral amplifier.
In my opinion, the advance Usher achieved in this design was less the tweeter (same as the Be 10 and the Be 20) and more the 7" woofer that can keep up with the speed of the tweeter. The woofer LOVES power. They work very well with beefy solid state amps like Usher's 150w bridgeable R1.5s. I use a pair in mono mode and they drive the speaker well into their magical operating range. A single R 1.5 also does the trick, just a little less impressive.
i have tried a long list of class D amps and have not found one I really like. The NuForce amps held some promise and their most recent efforts may be worth sampling. They do work well with the new 500W Bel Canto amp, but the price point is a bit rich. I have also heard good things about the NAD M3 with these speakers, but it is tough to find them.
Tubes are a bit more varied in performance with the Be 718s. I think it relates to their ability to produce the required current to unleash the dynamic power of the speakers. So SET amps may be inappropriate with them.
At CES, we demonstrated a prototype amp designed specifically for the Be 718s from a big electronics company new to high end audio. It is a 200WPC, Class D, Integrated Amp, targetted at about $ 2,000. I believe this would offer a "killer package" for music lovers that want compact, convenient, and well integrated offering for about $ 5,000 in total (amp and speakers); all you need is a source. You may have to wait a bit for this while final details are worked out. Stay tuned.
I've heard the Be-718s with many classes of electronics and am of the opinion that, when driven well, they can perform far, far "above their pay grade."
The best performance I've yet heard from the Be-718s (and it was just mind-bendingly good) was when--at the 2007 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest--I heard the speakers driven by a Belles LA-01 preamp and a pair of Belles MB-200 monoblock amps. Until I heard that combination, I don't I think I fully realized just how much performance headroom the Be-718s really had on tap. Though the Belles/Usher combo was far from the most expensive package I heard at RMAF 2007, it was easily one of the best I heard at the event (and cheaper by far than the other worthy competitors).
If I remember correctly, both Jacob Heilbrunn and I had similar reactions to the Usher/Belles package, and said so in our TAS reports from the 2007 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest.
Chris Martens
Editor, Playback
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
"Keep in mind that you need to use Spectral or MIT cable with the Spectral power amplifiers. The amplifiers have a bandwidth of 3MHz and can oscillate with some loudspeaker loads if the output isn't filtered by a networked cable. If you think the Be-718 is fabulous with an AVR, wait until you hear them with the Berkeley DAC and a Spectral amplifier."
HP reviewed the Spectral mono blocks WITHOUT MIT cables and didn't have any problems. As usual, Rick Fryer had his nose go out of joint over this issue, (HP borrowed the amps from a customer) but still posted the review on the Spectral website. Go to http://www.spectralaudio.com and click the Reviews button and you'll find it.
After nearly two years of testing appropriately priced amplifiers for the Usher Dancer series, including the Be 718's without much luck (we tested five different switching amplifiers extensively). Our search was to find a companion amplifier with the following characteristics: great tonal balance and extension, ability to control the woofer; typically 150 wpc with good current availability, a compact form factor, and a price point under $ 2,000. The strategy was to offer music lovers an unparalleled level of resolution and musicality under $ 5,000 retail with form factors and user interfaces taht make the system small, simple, and musically honest.
I am happy to report that our search appears to be nearing a surprising end. We hope to soon introduce a switching Integrated 200 wpc amplifier that really rocks with the 718's under the MusikMatters banner. The surpise? We expect to be able to offer this at well below $ 1,000, beating our target by 50 to 70 %.
We have not consumated the deal with the vendor, so it is not appropriate to reveal the identity of the product. Suffuce it to say, stay tuned for this potentially exciting new pairing within the next few weeks.
-atul
After nearly two years of testing appropriately priced amplifiers for the Usher Dancer series, including the Be 718's without much luck (we tested five different switching amplifiers extensively). Our search was to find a companion amplifier with the following characteristics: great tonal balance and extension, ability to control the woofer; typically 150 wpc with good current availability, a compact form factor, and a price point under $ 2,000. The strategy was to offer music lovers an unparalleled level of resolution and musicality under $ 5,000 retail with form factors and user interfaces taht make the system small, simple, and musically honest.
I am happy to report that our search appears to be nearing a surprising end. We hope to soon introduce a switching Integrated 200 wpc amplifier that really rocks with the 718's under the MusikMatters banner. The surpise? We expect to be able to offer this at well below $ 1,000, beating our target by 50 to 70 %.
We have not consumated the deal with the vendor, so it is not appropriate to reveal the identity of the product. Suffuce it to say, stay tuned for this potentially exciting new pairing within the next few weeks.
-atul
Any updates for us on the integrated amp? This sounds like an exciting development. Thanks!
I have been using the Usher BE 718 with the Bel Canto Design i300 integrated amp for almost 2 years. I liked the sound especially in vocal. Unfortunately, the Bel Canto i300 just didn't have the power when playing big orchestra works such as Mahler's symphonies. Recently I bought the latest Perreaux eloquence 250i Integrated Amp. This is a 250 wpc class AB amp and it was able to really bring the best out of the Usher BE718. I've got a much wider soundstage with more space between the instruments. The sound was very controlled and the Usher BE 718 really start to dance! Before I settled for the Perreaux eloquence 250i, I actually checked out the Krell Integrated 300i; ATC SIA150 (unable to audition because the local distributor didn't have the set); Plinius 9200. Just for information, the other components in my system was the Marantz SA15 S2 SACD player. My speaker cables are LAT International and my interconnects are Artisan Sliver Cables.
While the above combination suits me well, I suggest you check out the ATC (very high current amp) and perhaps the new Bel Canto e.One S500 (250wpc) Integrated amp too.
I have been using the Usher BE 718 with the Bel Canto Design i300 integrated amp for almost 2 years. I liked the sound especially in vocal. Unfortunately, the Bel Canto i300 just didn't have the power when playing big orchestra works such as Mahler's symphonies. Recently I bought the latest Perreaux eloquence 250i Integrated Amp. This is a 250 wpc class AB amp and it was able to really bring the best out of the Usher BE718. I've got a much wider soundstage with more space between the instruments. The sound was very controlled and the Usher BE 718 really start to dance! Before I settled for the Perreaux eloquence 250i, I actually checked out the Krell Integrated 300i; ATC SIA150 (unable to audition because the local distributor didn't have the set); Plinius 9200. Just for information, the other components in my system was the Marantz SA15 S2 SACD player. My speaker cables are LAT International and my interconnects are Artisan Sliver Cables.
While the above combination suits me well, I suggest you check out the ATC (very high current amp) and perhaps the new Bel Canto e.One S500 (250wpc) Integrated amp too.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone heard the new Moscode 402Au tube/transistor hybrid amp driving the Be-718s (or, for that matter, the Usher Be-10s, Be-20's, etc.).
I heard the Moscode amp at CES (driving speakers other than Ushers) and had the gut instinct that it might marry up with the Usher beryllium drivers in a spectacularly synergistic way. I was wondering, therefore, if anyone had tried the pairing and could offer some impressions.
Best,
Chris Martens
Editor, Playback
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
I first heard the Be-718's when I was in Canada at the FSI show and they sounded OK with a pair of Ref. 9 Nuforce amps but still a little ruff around the edges. I did like the 30K modified Esoteric CD player they where using though, so I would assume the Nuforce was the weaker link in the chain. The tweeter sounded a little bright and shiny. A few months later when I was in PA I listened to the Be-718's with an Aaron No.3 Millennium and that combination was much more impressive. The Aaron seems to have the power that they need without being bright or harsh. A little warmer which was attractive to my ears. I now run a pair of the Aaron's with my Be-10's and always have a smile on my face the Be-10's have bass that is so low and powerful with a midrange that is pure magic.
We demoed at the last THE SHOW 2009, Las Vegas BE718 with our amplfier Calyx The Integrated. Most visitors liked the sound. So I would like you to listen to the amp with BE718.
Since the show, we have been spending a lot time for test the duo and found they work very good in deed.
The amplifier is an integrated one with one USB and 3 analog inputs, 200 watts per channel and weighs merely 6 pounds.
Besides CTI(Calyx The Integrated) performed amazingly with Mini Maggies System (due to the generous offer from Magnepan) at EYEAR Show 2009 in Seoul, Korea.
Seungmok Yi
President, Digital & Analog Co., Ltd.
www.digitalandanalog.com
www.calyxamp.com
Has anyone heard the be-718's driven by the plinius 9200 integrated. Do you think that it may be a suitable match?
I know of a guy who plays with one of the bigger dancers and he uses the Plinius 9200 as well. Seems like a wonderful combination, (according to him).
Why do people keep thinking that class D sounds good? I don't care if you get 200 watts and it only weighs 6 pounds. It sounded like crap when I first heard them and they still do now. Class D was just a way for manufacturers to use $35 worth of parts and sell them for $2500. If you purchase and use a Plinius or Aaron or Simaudio amplifier you would be much happier. Your music would be more involving and enjoy able. My suggestions would be to save up some money and go listen to lots of different amplifiers. This process is fun. Use your own ears, let you be the judge of what is good. Forget the reviews and all the sales BS thats out there. In the end it is you that has to put out the money and live with it.
Good luck and happy listening.
How about the Parasound A21 running the Ushers?
Atul -
Any updates on your post above regarding the 200wpc integrated that you'll be introducing? Thanks!
atul - looks like an interesting piece of kit for a music lover like myself...any updates?
Hi Atul,
I too look forward to your 200w amp for the BE718. Meanwhile I plan to use them with my Quad 909 300w monoblocks controlled by a AudioSynthesis Passion passive. The Quad's input sensitivity is adequate to output enough volume from 86db speakers.
Can anyone also comment on using a high power SS amp on the bass and a tube amp using EL34 / 300B or a 2A3 SET with an electronic crossover ?
Sorry for the delay in responding, guys. Unfortunately, after extensive testing i am not comfortable recommending the class D amps we had high hopes for. As of now, the best sounding, reasonably priced amps continue to be the Usher 1.5 at about $ 2,250. If you can afford two, they are bridgeable, they are very good indeed. They look a bit retro; may not fit everyone's taste. I am eager to check the NAD M Series Integrated amps. You may also want to check out a really inexpensive option from Virtue Audio; their beefed up integrated model at about $ 400 gets the speakers started, but can't deliver the LF the speakers are capable of.
Saw an interesting TAS review on the Krell S-300i. How could it possibly sound w/ the Be-718s? Anyone heard the Tiny Dancers driven by Krell electronics?
Any try running the Be-718 with an Emotiva XPA-2?
I have heard the Moscode 401HR on the BE718 and it sounds great. I know it's my amp but if it didn't work well I wouldn't recommend it. The 402Au would sound even better.
You can contact me through our website www.Moscode.com. We have a few trade-ins. An excellent value.
George Kaye
Klaus Bunge's Odyssey Stratos (various models, but they all put out roughly 200 WPC or more) work very well with the Be-718s, and they're relatively inexpensive. I'm finding that the Stratos and the Be-718s, with high-quality cabling, are capable of "illustrating" all kinds of subtle qualities of timbre, rhythm, and dynamic range.
The Emotiva is quite popular in some circles, and it has the right amount of power. As we've bee discussing here, the Be-718s are fairly low efficiency, perhaps 85 dB, but in a fairly large listening volume, they can be driven to appropriate loudness levels for large orchestral works.
For cabling, bi-wiring works very well, and consider the Audioquest Meteor (relatively new product) and also the Wireworld Silver Eclipse 6. These products represent serious design and listening efforts. Both are copper and silver combinations, and yes, 8 ft lengths cost more than the Be-718s. However, the Be-718 and Stratos are more than capable of bringing forth more and more information, and naturalness, with such interconnect.
I found that pointing the speakers directly at the listening spot worked best in my situation, and gave the most relaxed, easy-on-the-ears experience.
Nicholas Bedworth
DigitalDirect Media Services, LLC Text/voice 1.808.372.2883 (GMT -10) nicholas [dot] bedworth [at] digitaldirect [dot] com (nicholas.bedworth@digitaldi)
Just saw this thread, anyone know what type of crossovers are in the BE-718's and if the upgrade by GR Research is worth it
Hi. As CEO of US Usher Distributor, MusikMatters, I was partly responsible for creating this loudspeaker and did the voicing to get the GR crossover to sound good to my ears.
I think the GR crossover makes a "huge" difference. Not only the settings but the quality of the components used were significantly better than the factory version.
All my comments pertain to the Be version, not the new diamond version with which I have no familiarity.
Hoe do I tell if the speaker I have has the GR crossover ?
Call Stan Tracht at MusikMatters with the serial number.
There are definitely speakers out there posing as the US version (i.e., GR crossover etc) so it is worth doing.
Thanks
Thanks