S/P-dif coax v. S/P-dif RCA v. USB v. IEEE 1394a
Mike22 -- Thu, 11/11/2010 - 18:31
Hi,
I am new to the AVguide, but a long time subscriber to TAS. I am also an IT professional and I build compters as a hobby. I want to build a music server and have some ideas that I would like to try in order to improve--or rather limit degradation of the sound. So I have been following the reviews and digital concept articles in TAS and other paper and electronic sources for guidence.
One kind of information that seems to be hard to find is a comparison of the effects on DAC performace of the available interfaces: S/P-dif RCA, S/P-dif optical, USB and IEEE 1394a (Firewire in the Apple world). Taming the increased jitter inherent in USB requires more expensive and complicated circuitry, but in other aspects of sound reproduction simple seems to be better than complicated. So it would seem likely that a given DAC might possibly sound better driven by the S/P-dif RCA or 1394a port (if it has one) than by a USB or even S/P-dif optical port.
My interest is practical: A system builder (like me) who works from the motherboard up has many choices available in digital out interfaces in addition to USB. So it would be very interesting and helpful for purchase decisions to learn if a particular DAC sounds significantly better when driven from one or another type of interface.
I could just build it and then see if the audio stores near me would let me schlep it in and test, but even if I could find some place that would go along with this, it would be a pain to carry it out.
If anyone has experience with music software for Windows or Linux, I would appreciate hearing about that, as well.
Thanks,
Mike
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But lets say one day u decided to switch your whole collection thousands of CD's to another setup....will this organization be the same or are we looking at thundreds of man-hours of organization. I am asking out of curiosity and general knowlege...not to annoy the heck out of you:) Thanks for your replies.
Hi Sam,
I guess I"ll find out if such a day should ever arrive. ;-}
Meanwhile, I'm very happy with iTunes and don't foresee wanting to move the library to anything else.
In fact, today is the day, after eleven months (!) at this, I can say I've finally finished loading the music server.
All the CDs in house, along with all my high res files (24/96, 24/176 and 24/192) all loaded.
It would have probably taken me only two months if I wasn't so particular about the correctness of the metadata (I like knowing all the players and composers) or the cover art. To me, much of what I see in the online databases accessed by the server apps is either incomplete or incorrect. And I prefer higher res versions of the cover art. Finally, finally, it is done! Music is playing as I type this.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Barry,
Congrats on finishing! Being particular on that metadata is definitely worthwhile. Enjoy.
Scott
Thank you Scott.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Sam,
Each piece of software has different ways to organize the directory structure on disk. In dbPowerAmp, you can customize the directory structure, and save that as part of a ripping "profile", so that you can set up different directory organizations depending on type of music, for instance. But honestly, it matters very little. The structure that you're worried about is the structure defined by the metadata, and the browsing interfaces of your chosen media playback software, and those will be the same regardless of the disk directory structure of the music files. The only time it really matters at all is when you're trying to locate some files to copy for some reason (that reason would not be illegal file sharing!), or when you're trying to decide where is a good location to place some music files you just downloaded. Again, though, as long as you put the files somewhere below the main directory you've set up your music player to watch, it will find them and import them automatically.
Also, there are quite a few tools, dbPA among them, which can automatically reorganize a disk directory structure based on the metadata tags in the music files, just in case there might ever be a reason to do so. In summation: don't sweat the directory structure.
Also...Scott, doesn't dBpoweramp have a 1 year access for $5 license to AMG?....Have you looked into that? Is that some sort of mini access compared to what sooloos provides as Metadata from AMG?
Sam,
If you buy the reference version, you now get lifetime access to all of the metadata providers. In the past, you had to renew the AMG license every year for $5, but not as of the latest version. The AMG data access is a subset of the full-on AMG data - things like reviews, artist profiles, etc are not included, but a decent subset of the tags are. AMG data is not perfect, but is much more complete and less error-prone than the user-generated free databases. For instance, each track has artists listed with it, and that list is usually correct.
You can see the dbPA metadata interface, and learn more about it, here:
http://dbpoweramp.com/cd-ripper.htm
I want to set up a computer music server in the listening room. This will do NOTHING but music will be used on it (No other everyday computer tasks on this setup). so lets say its a computer thats running the music server software with 2 external harddrives attached with wires....one for main playback/downloads/ripping and a second external hard drive as a back up of the main external hard drive. I could use another laptop/Ipad/iphone to control things from the listening chair to just use it as a remote control from listening chair. My question is..... If i have a wireless network elsewhere in the house in my office computer....can that be used effectively to get Metadata as well as download hi resolution audio into the setup in the listening room?
I was looking at the flow chart in TAS which is confusing....and they recommend ALL WIRED connections or connecting it to the HUB. The main Internet network is in a different room with the office, the printer, modem, wireless router attached to it in the office.
The listening room will just have a seperate setup with computer and harddrives that play/backup music and play via DAC. I would think this should have no issues but correct me if I am wrong. Thanks for all the other important info.
[A Seperate Question: The second "mirror"/backup external drive is also connected to the computer right? or is it connected to the Main external HardDrive that I'll be using for Playback?(Hope not getting too confusing here).]
Sam,
Right up front, you should understand that computer audio is a relatively new thing from the perspective of many of the audio mags. The reviewers in these mags might be experts on audio, but their expertise with computers and computer audio may be more limited than many of their most experienced readers. In this nascent field, any sweeping recommendations should be taken with a boulder of salt :)
I use a wireless network connection from my music server computer to my Black Box audio computer in my main room, which requires continuous high-bandwidth connectivity. It works perfectly. I've set up our home network to use the newer 802.11n wireless protocol, at the 5Ghz frequency range, which avoids interference from our microwave oven (MW ovens operate at 2.4 Ghz, along with a number of consumer devices like wireless telelphones, and most of the older wireless access points). If you are using the wireless connection only for access to metadata, operating system updates, software downloads, and music downloads, occasional interruptions of network access are far less serious than interruptions when playing back music files in real time.
There is another alternative besides wireless and hard-wired access, which is PowerLine AV. In my home, many of the networked devices use LinkSys powerline av adapters, which effectively serve as a hard-wired network connection, except that the hard line is through your AC electrical system. This will work fine as long as you don't have a very effective AC power conditioner plugged into the same circuit as the PowerLine adapter. My Equitech power conditioners effectively destroy the high-frequency signal that PowerLine AV depends on.
Ok.... I am a little confused... so 1. You have a computer with back up external disks where you store/backup/play the music from (The music server software and music all together in one place. 2. the Blackbox in in your audio room connecting to Berkeley DAC via AES/EBU is in a different room, your listening room. So what exactly is the Blackbox doing or holding? I thought all your musicdata and software was running through the black box which is windows based and essentially a low jitter, low noise computer..... It appears that you are accessing your music files from another computer through "Wireless connection" and playing it throught the bluebox then to Berkeley. Can you put the chain of connections in a simplified way. Whats connected where and in what order is the data moving....etc....Thanks. (also does Real time mean that you are accessing music wirelessly over a network from a drive elsewhere?). Can you simplify if possible.
Gee, Sam, pretty soon I'm going to have to tend to these blisters on my typing fingers :)
The way I have my "system" set up, I have a desktop computer in my home office space that contains all of my music on one external drive, which is mirrored (backed up) on an identical second hard drive. I have a copy of JRMC on this "music server" computer, set up as a "library server" in JRMC terminology. Then, I have copies of JRMC on my main desktop PC, a Dell Laptop, and on my music room Black Box, each configured as a "library server client". From each of these two latter clients, connected to the music server via network, I can browse and play back music as though the library were local - but the music files are transferred from the music server through the network on-demand, more or less as they are being played.
Finally, the main Black Box is also set up as a "library server" - it's indirectly serving up the library that it gets from the main system. And my Dell Mini 10 netbook has yet another copy of JRMC running, which is set up to talk to the Black box library server, and control it just as though the interface was running on the Black Box itself. It's much more complicated to describe than to do :)
You can certainly just set up a music room server with a couple of hard drives, exactly as you've described. From a practical standpoint, it was more convenient for me to have a high-powered desktop PC, with a couple of CD drives that I could use simultaneously, and a real desk with a real monitor and keyboard, to use when I was ripping CDs and editing the tags. And then, sharing the music between physically separated headphone and main audio systems. But there is no reason to choose this kind of more complicated system architecture unless your needs demand it. And there are, conversely, no reasons other than complexity of initial set up not to choose it, if it fits your needs. And you can certainly change network architectures as time goes on - that is a major benefit of computer audio.
Scott
lol..Thanks for all the help:) you can rest your fingers. And when you are well rested and recovered from this blog and feel like answering this.....Out of curiosity.....why did you not choose a sooloos? It has an amazing user interfase, the Metadata is the best out there (full AMG), and robert harley calls it the state of the Art in music servers. Was it the Digital output that pulled you towards the bluesmoke? I would guess that the best tagging for your classical collection would have come from a Sooloos player. Why the bluesmoke Vs. Sooloos? (you don't have to answer this question if you don't feel like it). I appreciate your significant contribution on this blog, really brought me up to speed without going through tons of junk online...and Im experienced enough to distinguish junk from the good stuff:)
Well, there are a number of reasons I don't have a Sooloos. First, I'm strongly biased toward more open solutions that allow me to mix and match my own software, hardware, remote control, backup, etc solutions, and evolve them as technology changes. Also, when I first started looking at the Sooloos (well before the Meridian aquisition), the internal components, including the sound card, were very pedestrian. High res output wasn't supported then. The user interface, from what I was able to garner from reviews and screenshots, seemed less than optimal for Classical music. And silly as it sounds, I was quite put off by their web site, which had almost no hard information, but instead seemed to market the product as a luxury lifestyle accessory for the rich and pretentious. Given that there were no distributors within hundreds of miles of me, the web site was the primary vehicle I had to learn about the product.
Edit: I shouldn't neglect to say that Sooloos has progressed a great deal since the acquisition by Meridian a couple of years ago. More attention to digital audio quality, including high-res and the Meridian apodizing filter, better integration options, more flexible configurations, somewhat better entry-level pricing, broader dealer coverage. Even the web site is now OK :) Anyone considering spending large coin on a music server setup owes it to themselves to at least check out Sooloos.
Actually, the user interface I always wanted was that of the long defunct Fortuna Classical player. I found their old web pages in the Internet "way back" machine (archive.org); click on the Search or Compare demos to see my idea of how a Classical interface should work. (The pages will load slowly because they're from the archive.)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070205012308/www.fortunaclassical.com/5-3-0...
I actually set out a few years ago to develop a similar interface, consisting of a little homegrown web server and client built on top of J River. I got it to a promising point as a prototype, but then life (and the poor state of web application and touch interface technology at the time) got in the way. I might have to resurrect that little project one of these days ...
Scott and Barry......I had a computer technical question.....Im sure you guys must be tired of answering all my questions by now....but if you are up to it and if you can please recommend if I am going the wrong path or not:
I am interested in purchasing the Amarra 2.0 full audiophile edition. I have never used a MAC before. I contacted apple and their store...they said they know nothing about setting up Amarra or a high resolution server. I was thinking of the New MacBookAir as the music server. It has solid state hard drive. The computer itself will be used for nothing but Amarra. I was going to use two external hard disks. 1 for all my music/downloads/playback and one for a mirror backup of the main external hard drive.
The mac book air only has two USB ports...so 1 will be used for playback connected to the USB DAC. The second....Apple recommended using a Belkin USB 4 port Hub+Stellar....this will expand one of the USB ports and allow me to connect the two harddrives and a external cd burning drive to rip the music from audio cds on the USB hub thats connected to the one USB port in the computer.
Am I going in the wrong direction? will using the USB hub create problems? Is this computer/music server good enough or too weak for a best possible USB music server to run a program like amarra through a USB DAC? What specs are the minimum required to run smoothly? Please help if you can.....I have a total of about 2000 CD's....and want to start getting into Hi-Rez and downloading. I want to make sure all this will work flawlessly and without audio degredation in sound quality or playback glitches. (I asked apple...the Mac Mini cannot be installed with a solid state hard drive.....the regular drives are noisy and release RFI.
The computer specs is here:
http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html
USB hub is here:
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H1827VC/A?fnode=MTY1NDA3Ng&mco=MTkxMzc5Mzk&s=topSellers
I am reluctant to use a Desktop or large computer unit because of the fan noise and area it uses in the room....too large. This Mac thing will be a cool new experiment...but Im concerned with the way i am connecting things. On my BIG PC....the USB ports on the front sometimes don't work or go super slow...and the computer says connect a hard disk to powered USB or USB ports in the BACK of the computer....What is a powered USB port and how do I figure out which one it is on the computer?.. All this tech stuff gets confusing. Please suggest if connecting things like this is a good idea or not or if there are minimum specs that I should get. (Again the computer will be used for nothing else but music...so I assumed it doesn't have to be a super duper machiene). Thanks.
Hi Sam,
I'd opt for a MacBook Pro over a MacBook Air for the simple reason that the former has a Firewire port and a built-in CD/DVD drive. It offers the option for a solid state internal drive as well, though this is something I would not personally choose for housing an OS, which accesses the drive constantly. (Maybe some day but right now, I'd question the longevity of a solid state drive running an OS.)
A USB hub can work. I use one with the USB drives attached to my AirPort (wireless router) in order to let the different laptops I have all have access to the same drives at the same time.
But I would ask "Why USB DAC?" when you could connect a Firewire DAC like the LIO-8. It is all personal calls of course but I'd go LIO-8 and (free) iTunes before I went with another DAC and any other app, simply because the LIO-8 has amazed me so much, removing reservations I've had about digital since I first started using digital gear in 1983 - and absolutely shaming gear that costs many times its price. To my ears, the DAC is going to have a significantly greater impact on the sound than the playback app will. (Actually, that last is an understatement.)
Of course, the above is just my perspective. My best suggestion is to audition these things yourself and draw your own conclusions. You may agree or you may hear it differently.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Hi Barry,
Thanks for your reply. I was thinking a USB DAC because....I am just getting into this stuff....and an AyreUSB DAC is 1/2 or 3 times cheaper than the Metric Halo DAC's.....but definately something to consider. The only reason for thinking of Amarra route is that its used by a lot of professional companies and it would rid the hassles of closing and opening itunes once and for all.....but the $700 price seems huge for that task. For Me the easiest to setup music server would be a windows based because I have used that eversince home computers came out. I have never used an apple....and may be that will be a good try. With Dell and other Windows computers I have had a lot of issues with viruses and system crashes even with the best of protective softwares etc....Lets say I have been frustrated with PC's for a while. So far all the apple products I have used....iPod, iPhone...have never given a problem.....and I was hoping their computers to be the same....but lets see. To blow away a couple of grand in this experiment would not be that huge of a deal.....when we start getting over $5K then I start thinking if its even worth trying for a first timer like me....... Im also trying to figure out the setup of a musicserver....so thanks to you and Scott with helping understand that. I'll look into the Macbook pro. The apple guys kept pushing the macbook air...so I thought it might be their latest and greatest but yea...it lacks a lot of features.
Hi Sam,
I think your experience with your iPod and iPhone is typical of Apple's gear: it just works.
As I mentioned, I'd put the $700 toward the DAC and use the free software myself - in fact, I did just that. ;-}
(That would make the price difference between a very good DAC and one that is (in my estimation) the best there is, ~$800.
There are also other, less expensive apps that accomplish the automatic switch of sample rate, such as Pure Music (~$129) or the current AyreWave (free) or other soon-to-be-released apps from other sources, including PS Audio. (And none of the other apps require a hardware dongle.)
The MacBook Air is a wonderful machine but it is optimized for those who seek the thinnest, lightest Mac laptop and not the most powerful or convenient one.
If money is an issue, I'd consider a ULN-2, though it maxes at 24/96 (a great sounding 24/96 nonetheless but no 192).
Or perhaps a used LIO-8.
But that's just me. Having used the MH gear for years, as with the Mac, I'm just biased toward equipment that exceeds my expectations.
Sounds to me like you're doing the research so I'd bet you end up happy with whatever path you choose.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Sam,
Some things to think about:
- Laptop cooling fans can be quite noisy. There are complaints from some users about the MacBook Air in particular:
http://discussions.info.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2631985&start=0&t...
- Connecting USB drives to your router, as Barry suggests, is one way to avoid having the USB drives in the room with you. This allows you to use larger, noisier, but faster external drives.
- Mac computers can easily share files with Windows computers (Google "mac windows file sharing" for lots of threads and how tos, I'm not expert on this). You could possibly even point iTunes to a shared directory on a Windows machine, which would allow you to rip on Windows (haven't tried this, but in theory, I think it should work ...)
- It's useful to have a fast, high performance machine with a large screen and ergonomic keyboard to do your ripping. Here's a little math on ripping your 2000 CD collection. The fastest CD readers, regardless of their stated performance, will not read a complete CD faster than about 25 to 30x (they're faster near the edge of the CD, but not so much on the inside - CDs are read inside-out, opposite an LP). So, to read a 50 minute CD takes 2 minutes or just under. If you're using a ripper like iTunes that reads the disc twice for secure ripping, you obviously double that time. Add in the time it takes the computer to compress the files, and some amount of time to verify and/or edit the metadata, and you're at 5 minutes per disc. 5 minutes per disc comes out to 167 hours of ripping time - just 16.5 ten hour days, and you're done. This may not be a problem for you, but if it is, there are things you can and should do. Using a ripper that can do secure reading of most discs in one pass, like dbPA or the XLD Mac ripper mentioned by cfmsp earlier in this thread, trims a couple of minutes per disc, and therefore helps a lot. So does getting good metadata that you don't have to edit as much. And, so does having at least two very fast CD reading drives available, so you can have multiple instances of your ripping program running and ripping multiple CDs simultaneously. I found that, if I didn't try to do anything else at the same time, I could keep two and sometimes three discs ripping simultaneously using my high performance desktop (the limitation being my ability to keep up, not the computer), which allowed me to finish my last major rip of the entire collection in about one intense week (conveniently, we were snowed in the whole time).
Not surprisingly, there are entire businesses dedicated to saving people from such pain. These "ripping services" will take your entire collection and rip it for you. Many of these services don't do lossless ripping, secure ripping, or take much care with metadata - but some do. One such service is particularly intriguing to me:
http://www.readytoplaysecure.com
They'll do secure ripping, using dbPowerAmp, to FLAC or Apple Lossless format, and return the results to you on an external hard drive. They claim to do a good job "grooming" the metadata. I've been tempted to try this service, but haven't due to my quite specific needs for Classical tagging. If I were to use a service like this, I'd first do a trial with 50-100 discs representative of my collection (multiple genres, popular and obscure discs, etc) and see what the results were like. Pricing isn't listed on the web site, but I'm guessing, based on industry standards, that it would be at least $1.50 per disc - which, depending on your budget and your spare time, might be outrageous or might be a bargain. If you're at all interested, call them and see.
Sam,
As a follow on to my posts about ripping, here are two articles at computeraudiophile.com that are definitely worth a read.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Computer-Audiophile-CD-Ripping...
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Ripping-CDs-Style-GD3-Review
I wouldn't necessarily do everything Chris recommends in the first article - ripping straight to FLAC or Apple Lossless would be good enough for me, without those "archive" files - but he has lots of good info there, including how to rip straight to a Mac from dbPowerAmp on Windows. The second article lays out an automated solution using a ripping robot (like that used by most ripping services).
Scott,
Thankyou for all the information. I think I would have a much easier time with a windows setup since I have used it exclusively. I wanted to try Apple for something new and hopes for better reliability. I dread the times which come almost yearly to reformat the computer...because it gets so slow. May be an windows 7 Ultimate dell is another option...and I don't do anything else but music on a new computer may be it will stay stable and up to speed longer?....but who knows. The other issue is wireless streaming data.....I went to officmax to look at their ultra high end routers that you mention as well....and it might be a good way to go if the regular hard disks in the room or near the DAC will cause issues....some say even a screen causes EMI......Im not sure if this is taking it to too much extreme. The other way is to get the best DAC possible like Barry suggests and start of with a simple notebook. Once I figure out how to connect all this stuff...then I'll make a choice. Thanks for the links...I'll definately read through them. I think I want to do all the ripping my self....$3K to just load up the CD's is too much...but thats just me. Appreciate all the information you provided!
For what it's worth, I've done zero maintenance on my Black Box PC since the day it went into my system about two years back, other than checking for Windows updates every couple of months and updating my copy of JRMC to the latest version. Same with the machine that serves as my ripper/file server. Both are running like the day I got them.
Performance issues always come down to two things: disk fragmentation, and a gradual accumulation of new programs you install that automatically start themselves, or some piece of themselves, at bootup or startup time, usually without your knowledge. I have a tendency to install something just to try it, then let it sit around on my system even though I never use it. Get rid of that stuff. Disk fragmentation is an issue on any computer, although Mac OSx does a better job of keeping fragmentation down "as you go". The latest versions of Windows are now set up to automatically defragment on a regular basis, so I no longer worry about that. You'll note that the activities that cause these things - frequent installation of software, and frequent creation/deletion of files, are not much of an issue on a music server. BTW, I don't even run any antivirus on the Black Box - assuming you've got a firewalled router (e.g. pretty much all routers), and you don't do a lot of web surfing from that PC, it's not really necessary.
I have a Mac, iPad, and iPod touch, and those things really do just work (although I had a heck of a time getting my iPad recognized by iTunes during setup). On the other hand, if you don't like some part of the way they just work, you tend to have fewer choices than on Windows or Linux or Android. It's the classic Mac/PC dilemma, and I can easily see justifications for preferring any of those alternatives, and I've obviously chosen differently at different times myself. Pick a direction and go with it, enjoy it, learn from it, have fun!
I have SS drives for my OS on both my MacBook Pro 13" and Mac Pro 1st gen. On the Mac Pro putting the OS on SS made the biggest real-world speed boost I've ever gotten from an upgrade.
The latest generation of SS drives from OWC have far better longevity specs than any HD.
I agree with Barry - get the Macbook pro - it's upgradable, which the air isn't (hardwired memory), and the presence of Firewire makes it a far better music and image machine than the air. If weight is really critical get an iPad for the road. Add a wireless keyboard and it will have 90% of the air's functionality.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Steven,
With a solid state hard drive ssd, the MacBook pro has no moving parts/noise?
The MAcbook pro generates no hard drive noise whatsoever with the SS drive.
It also boots faster and apps load faster.
The only downside is the cost - I'm using a 120GB drive, which is smaller than I might prefer, but the 250 GB drives were too much, so my music files (almost 200 G) are on an external USB drive.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Steven,
The MBP does still have a fan though, right? Is it very quiet?
It has a fan per apple support guys.
Unless you're running a dozen apps on a hot day it probably won't come on.
No hd = less heat
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Hi ScottB,
I'm running a MacBook Pro with a spinning hard drive and have not encountered any issues with the fan.
As I did with my PowerBook, which also has a regular hard drive, I use it for recording sessions, recording directly to the internal drive.
There have been no issues. And my microphones very clearly picked up a fly (!) in the back of the church during the "Lift" sessions. (It was loud enough to require a retake of the song.) There was nothing to pick up from the fan, which, being only 15 feet or so from the mics, was much closer than that fly.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
The memory is upgradable but the solid state hard drive is not. The apple people recommend getting highest specs computer but solid state drive at 200something gb drive and 8mb ramm adds a $1000 to the price which I think in a year or so or just few years away will drop significantly. And by then getting a new computer might be a better option rather than a fully loaded ram and solid state hard disks right now.
Steven, do u have your playback harddisk and backup hard disk via USB connected directly to your MacBook pro or do you have the devices connected wirelessly to a router or NAS?
I have several computer-based systems. Sonos uses a NAS drive on my home network. The Logitech Touch uses both USB drives attached directly and my iTunes library on my main computer. The Macbook has a duplicate of the main iTunes library on a 500 G USB drive that has two partitions; one with the iTunes library and the other serving as my Time Machine back-up drive. The Macbook can access either of the other two libraries (on my MAc Pro or NAS) via WIFI.
Part of the beauty of a computer-based music system is that there are many ways to access music files, limited only by your imagination and system's capabilities.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Hmmmm. But using wireless or wifi, doesn't that cause breaks/delays in playback... Like streaming videos with lag times? From what I remember of ur article in TAS u recommended a fully wired system...has that changed now and does that require ultra fast routers and computers? I'm lost because it seems like all of u guys Steven, Scott and Barry are either storing or playing music from drives not directly Attached to the computer with the music server software. There is a lot of wireless data access from drives in other areas/rooms than the audiosystem. Correct?
Hi Sam,
My music library resides on a 1T external LaCie d2 drive. For the fastest loads when I'm ripping CDs, I use a direct Firewire connect to my MacBook Pro. I've also used a direct USB connection to the MBP in my studio for "heavy duty" listening to high res files. At other times (i.e. generally, for listening via small systems in the den and kitchen), the drive is connected via USB to my AirPort and the music is sent wirelessly.
What I've noticed so far with wireless use is that when I tell iTunes to switch to another song, it takes a second, where with the direct connection, it seems almost instant. In my view, a small price to pay in exchange for the convenience. As I said, for "heavy duty" listening in the studio, I always have the option of a direct connection.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
That makes sense. Especially when hard drives are so cheap...one can be kept attached to the music server computer directly and a second copy can be attached to a network for the rest of the house/rooms. Is there a way to lock or protect the main drive in case of accidental erase by other users not knowing much about files or protect from kids being naughty? I like to share my things with the whole family staying or visiting my house but will not be happy to re rip CDs with data loss from another computer/room.
Hi Sam,
To be clear, I don't have the direct and the WiFi connected at the same time. I'm using a single drive to house the library. (The second drive is only for backup of the first.) Sometimes the drive is connected directly to my MBP and at other times it is connected to my AirPort (wireless router).
To "lock" a drive, you would give "Read Only" access to log-ins other than the admin (you) log-in.
This would mean your Mac is set up to ask for a password at boot up.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Scott, is there a website link that walks u through setting up a mirrored second hard drive for backup. i.e. Is there a way to set things up where when I rip data to the main external hard drive it automatically backs it up to the 2nd external harddrive. Kind of like how the iPhone or iPod syncs things and updates/matches things just by connecting it to the computer? If it's in the links u provided I'll go back to it (I skimmed through it but will go over it again),He does go in extreme details about making 4 differnent copies. (does the ripping software settings decide where the second copy will go or is it some computer settings that when set will sync things to the second backup drive?
Sam,
There is a technology (called RAID) which does exactly what you're asking - automatically maintains multiple disks with the same data in real time.But RAID usually requires somewhat specialized hardware and setup - beyond what people usually do in home environments. It's certainly possible, though; your local little computer repair shop probably has some geeks who could help you do it. Alternatively, you use a program like the one Barry describes; on Windows, I use the SyncToy program I mentioned earlier, which can either be run manually or set up to run automatically on a weekly or daily basis:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?familyid=C26EFA36-98E...
Hi Sam,
There is free software from Lacie (makers of the drives I'm using) called SilverKeeper.
You tell it the source drive and the destination drive. After that, one click does the backup, updating the second drive with any changes that have occurred on the first drive. It isn't automatic but I find it pretty easy once I've added something to the library, to launch SilverKeeper and click the "Go" button. That's it.
Best regards
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Thankyou Barry for all ur help!
Steven,
The 120GB ssd seems small in size. How much space does the MAC operating system require? I have a windows vista ultimate running on a PC and just having that on is like 150GB. If the operating system and basic software will take up most all of the space on the hard drive then it might slow the system down or might not have space for even the basic things. any thoughts? are u using your mac for other things as well? or just for your server?
The OS needs around 40 GB. iTunes and iPhoto libraries are the big space-eaters. I put those files on another drive. It requires altering prefs slightly since the default is always to the OS drive. Easily done in the prefs of each program.
My Mac Pro is my main computer. It does heavy photo editing as well as music editing. But when I'm using it for critical listening all other functions are shut down.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
I also configured a similar Dell XPS laptop with a solid state drive option...and it turns out much cheaper for the same specs...or for the same price as a mac book pro..you get much more RAM and SOLID state hard drive and processor speed. Is it worth paying the hefty price for the fire-wire port option? Are Macs more expensive because they are more trendy? spec wise a Dell laptop offers more for less price. I went to the apple store to check out the mac books and it was crowded by teenagers. I saw little girls and boys hogging up all the notebooks, hanging out together talking to each other, some even had their face book or other accounts logged on. I asked them if I could take a look and one of the little girls said....hold on let me sign out of my account. lol I couldn't stop laughing. I guess apple is really cool with the young kids. the apple store is the new chucky cheese. As far as a music server for us oldies is concerned what is the benefit of going with a mac book pro vs a Dell? or is it just taste? Pros and cons?
As any teenager will tell you. "Macs just work."
End of story.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Hi Sam,
As I see it ( being a user of both Macs and PCs - but only Mac for audio), Macs are not more expensive at all.
To my mind, there is a difference between price and cost, the latter of which may take the form of angst and/or added expense in terms of adequate memory (RAM), anti-virus software, anti-spyware software, endless OS "patches", etc. etc. When friends ask me about getting their first computer, I suggest they try both platforms and see. What I tell them is, "if you want to use a computer, get a Mac. If you want a computer to use you, get a PC."
I'm gathering you haven't used a Mac (or at least haven't used one much). My experience with both platforms (including writing software) makes me very, very glad to be "Microsoft free".
Then, there is the fact, as Steven pointed out, that Macs do indeed "just work". (I never heard of the "three finger salute" until I got a Windows machine. ("You mean the machine periodically just freezes and you have to re-boot to get it running again?!?! What would you do with a car that needed periodic restarts to keep it running? I know what I'd do.")
Just my perspective of course. I have many friends who like their Windows machines and use them happily and I'm sure there are many, many Windows users here on the AV forums.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Hi Barry,
I have never used a MAC before and know nothing about it as far as long term reliability software's or anything else for that matter. (windows i have seen grow since it Replaced DOS and the days of windows 93, 95....what ever it was called in those days.)
1. Its still a significant investment even if its a $2K computer.
2. Lots of different views out there....The solid state drives are very small in GB space and apple lady said it only takes 20GB of space with all the OS and general software where as Steven mentioned double of that at 40GB...I am still shocked that and entire MAC Operating system software is so much cheaper and takes up so little space compared to my Windows vista ultimate... and windows and MAC are suppose to be competitors. I didn't expect this huge of a difference in their software price and space they take up.
3. It would be nice to get a MAC that could later on just be used as a general extra laptop to be used around the house if I move on to a different music server (I would guess that Music server systems and soft wares will change and improve rapidly....and if something better does come up the system should be able to handle it. Especially with the SSD space. Like Steven mentions working around it with additional drives may be a good way to get the best out of the system rather than storing things on the internal hard drive. But the computer purchase must last at least a few years. I don't want to buy a new one every year.
4. Apple says that the specs are done at factory....i.e. I have to order the MAC and they will custom order/make the computer. From what I gather the Solid state hard drive or RAM cannot be upgraded later by ourselves. Now I wonder how much disk space does Amarra or Channel D pure music software may take up. Opting for a tiny SSD (for all the benefits it has) with plans to use additional software that may extend its storage capacity is a serious concern in my view. After all the whole point of this machine would be to use it as a dedicated music server and one should have enough lee way to add dedicated software that will play the music. Add virus scan and few other things that may come up....and that would take up even more space.
My question to you Barry or even Steven would be:
could you name some soft wares that may be essential to install on the MacPro? ex: what virus scan do you use? any other softwares you have installed. That way I could estimate how much space will be taken up by these things and order a SSD accordingly. I don't plan to keep the music on the SSD except for may be a few HRX reference recording tracks or a few Hi-rez tracks on it. But like I said my windows vista ultimate, virus scan and few other basic things alone take up 150GB of space on the PC.
Essential software - OS 1.6.5 and whatever you need to do the job - MS Office, Adobe whatever, etc.
No virus protection, it's a Mac - but I don't do stupid stuff like open emails from Paypal telling me my account has been suspended...
I have the same SSD on my Mac Pro as I do on my MacBook Pro 13". I installed them both myself. Other World Computing has great how-to vids for that. On the Mac Pro I have 35 G free, on my MacBook I have 80 GB free.
I have a LOT more stuff on my Mac Pro...
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Hi Sam,
All I can say is if you try a Mac and like it, you are in for some very, very pleasant surprises as you use it day to day. (I suggest a visit to a Mac store and simply "playing" with one for a while. You'll know.)
No need to spend $2k either. An iMac starts at ~$1200. Add some extra RAM for ~200 and you have a machine that will be great for years.
My personal view of SSDs is they are not a good idea for operating systems, which write to the drive many times per minute. With SSD technology as it currently stands, I see this as shortening the life of the storage that houses the operating system.
To answer your question:
The software that is "essential" will vary from user to user. Since I insist on a "Microsoft free" machine, I use Apple's iWork suite (list $79) for word processing, spreadsheets, presentation, etc. (It will open and save to Word, Excel, etc. if you need to exchange files with MS users. And from the Print dialog, you can turn anything at all into a pdf that anyone, on any OS can open.)
I use iTunes as my music server software and that came free on the machine.
An option is something like Toast (~$79) for making safety copies of CDs.
Other software I use is several different apps for my recording/mastering work and would hardly be considered "essential" by most folks. Then there is an astronomy app or two (one of my oldest hobbies) but again, hardly "essential" for most non-stargazers.
And here's one I take great pleasure in answering: "virus scan"? none at all. (How many viruses and worms are there "in the wild" - meaning out in the world, for Windows? Last time I checked, it was something like 250,000 or 300,000. Know how many there are in the wild, i.e. outside of laboratories, for the Mac? Zip, nada, none. Not one. No spyware either. That said, *any* machine can be compromised by visiting questionable Web sites or opening unknown attachments but in both cases, this takes action (dumb action) on the part of the user. Either way, I don't know any Mac users, even computer novices, who have suffered viruses or any sort of invasion of their machine. (Some say it has to do with market share but I'm not convinced. If Macs have 1% of the market, they should have 1% of the viruses; if 10%, then 10% of the viruses, and besides, there is the "challenge" of creating the first "in the wild" virus for OS X. But no one has done it yet.)
You might have to get used to the machine *not* freezing, no blue screens, no "patches", no worms, trojan horses, adware, spyware, no DLLs (install or uninstall with simple drag and drop). If you leave it on 24/7, it runs its own maintenance. If not - there is one more "essential", Onyx, which is free. I run it weekly (at very least monthly) to perform the maintenance scripts the Mac would run on its own if left on all the time.
The idea of Macs being expensive is, to my mind, just silly. A comparably equipped PC would not cost less, in angst if not in dollars as well. How much money and time spent on virus software, updating the signatures regularly, without which it has no value, running anti-adware, anti-spyware, etc. etc.
Ultimately, what works for someone is the right one to use. Perhaps that's why I wouldn't consider anything but a Mac for my work. It works. Every time. I just can't say that about my Windows machine (which seems to enjoy beating me up regularly). Any wonder I'm a Mac user?
End of rant. Thanks for listening.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Thanks, Barry and Steven. Much appreciate ur input!
@ Sam
The main issue here is not the interface, but rather jitter and related clock noise. Check out two reviews of mine at www.6moons.com on the Weiss INT 202 and the new Audiophilleo 1. Also please look at John Atkinson's excellent article on the Halide Bridge, www.stereophile.com, in which he measure jitter on several devices, a Mac Book, etc. The numbers are in general lousy. There is also excellent, well-informed discussion on such topics at www.whatsbestforum.com in the D/A sections.
Regarding pricing, you can get an 18.4" HP laptop, 1920 x 1080 screen, BluRay, 4 USB/SATA ports, HDMI, and on and on and on, for $1500. With a one year, not 90 day, warranty. Mac technical support is excellent, HPs only good, so if you're helpless, that's an important factor, but the price/performance on the Windows 7 laptops is terrific. Keep in mind that Mac and PC use the same CPUs, the same display chips, etc.
For the best bargains, note that the HP.Com Web site is not the cheapest place to buy one of their products. Instead, you can usually find the same product in a distribution channel (www.buydig.com) for typically 20-30% less. And if there's a change in retail packaging, etc., they simply dump the old inventory. I always lard up any such purchase with a 3 year, accidental breakage warranty, so no matter what happens, they cheerfully repair/replace it. So when comparing laptop prices, be sure to add the significant cost of a warranty that will really do what you want as a consumer. These comments apply to other brands, too, I'm just using HP as an example.
The marketing hype about Macs not getting viruses, etc., is dangerously misleading, as you may find out the hard way. Yes, there are way fewer viruses for Mac, in relation to its miniscule (and declining slightly) 5% worldwide market share, but also to the real technical strengths of BSD UNIX, which is the OS that Apple uses underneath the user interface. However, the "blue screen" etc. routine simply mindlessly parrots Apple advertising. You always believe what you see on TV, don't you? Basically the ads target the mediocre consumer Windows of 10 years ago, which has almost nothing to do with Windows 7.
You need to be aware that the vast majority of security issues on laptops, Windows or Macs, are not operating system related and have not been for years. Instead, the bad guys write Javascript exploits that attack applications, mainly the browser. You better believe that Safari, Firefox and Internet Explorer browsers have many, many security issues and that all the vendors frantically patch them on an almost daily basis. Microsoft is by far the most organized and responsive in this respect; getting Apple to "clear" specific exploits is something of a work in progress. And browsers are basically a kind of career-path Siberia. Real developers work on the OS or major applications, not, sniff, browsers, which in any event, are given away for free. Microsoft's institutional role as supplying 95%+ of the worlds PCs means they have huge resources devoted to such things. The Microsoft Security Essentials (v 2.0 came out a few days ago) is free, excellent, and address almost all virus, malware, spyware, etc. situations. If something like this is available for the Mac, you would be foolish not to use it. And no, SSD drives don't wear out because of read/write patterns.
My Macs, iPads, etc., infrequently suffer from freezes; they are certainly not immune to such things. These are typically not caused by the OS, but rather by applications. No OS can protect itself completely against the apps that it runs. And if you're paying $1.99 for an iPad app, figure out how much engineering went in to it :) Almost all OS crashes, occur in the display driver, and of course Windows and Macs use exactly the same display processors, exactly the same CPUs, and have for years.
With Windows Vista/7, you cannot get bit-perfect out of Windows Media Player. You'll need the $49 J. River Media Center player, just select WASAPI mode. You're done. iTunes can also be bit-perfect, but as Steve correctly points out in some of his reviews, it sometimes "slips" into non-bit-perfect modes which are not ideal. It's easy enough to switch it back, but be aware that this can happen. One can even get bit-perfect 44 or 48 kHz/16 bit data from of an iPad, which is fun, but of course it isn't easy given the lack of USB ports and current limitations on the very-hard-to-find camera adapter kit. And anything related to computer-software-based sample rate conversion is likely to be pretty lethal with respect to high-end sound quality.
Now you know! Hope this helps. For computer audio purposes, I'd get an Acer 1410 2801 ($300 at Costco) and a 1.5 TB Seagate ($89 at Costco) and a very good USB to S/PDIF converter. You're done for next to nothing. And no, the Mac Book is not going to give you data that are any more bit-perfect than what comes out of the Acer. No way around that :) One difference, however, that is real relates to power supplies. Laptops use external bricks, and these can induce nasty noise in your listening room. For the most critical listening, run off the battery.
Nicholas Bedworth
DigitalDirect Media Services, LLC Text/voice 1.808.372.2883 (GMT -10) nicholas [dot] bedworth [at] digitaldirect [dot] com (nicholas.bedworth@digitaldi)
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