Soulution 710
Jonathan Valin -- Wed, 12/17/2008 - 04:01
I first heard about the solid-state Soulution 710 about a year ago. This hefty (176 lbs., uncrated), 240Wpc (into 4 ohms) Swiss-made stereo amp had already won a number of prestigious awards in Europe and Japan from magazines that are persnickety. What was more surprising were the superlatives that accompanied the awards. Several of these magazines outright declared it the "best amp EVER," which was definitely out of editorial character.
Anyway, I did a little research, took a look at Soulution's Web site (www.soulution-audio.com/english/e_710.html), and was surprised to see Soulution talking about combining the virtues of tubes and transistors. (A hardcore, ultra-high-tech, Mega-Hertz-bandwidth transistor outfit conceding that tubes had virtues that solid-state didn't was, to say the least, unusual.) Intrigued, I decided to give the stereo amp, the 710, a listen, which is what I've been doing over the past two or three months. (I now also have Soulution's 740 CD player and am expecting its 720 preamp this week or next.)
Since I'll be spilling the beans about this amp in my review of the MartinLogan CLX (in Issue 190), I might as well just say it here: This is the most transparent transistor amplifier I've yet heard. It is to amplifiers precisely what the CLX itself is to transducers--a paragon of fidelity to sources. Unlike the CLX, however, it is not limited in the low end or in ultimate dynamic range. It does what MartinLogan's great loudspeaker does everywhere. It doesn't sound darkish and liquid like an MBL or a LAMM amp and it doesn't sound whitish and brightish like a Spectral or a Boulder. It just doesn't sound. I've never heard a solid-state amp like it, and I've heard a few. In fact, I've never heard an amp like it. It is so delicately detailed that it can rightly be compared with the very best tubes, and yet it has no tube colorations. It is so fast and clear and unlimited in extension that it can rightly be compared with the very best solid-state, and yet it has not a trace of astingency or grain or bottom-heaviness or top-tippiness. It is the first solid-state amp I've ever heard that has made me rethink my bias toward glass audio. It's so damn realistic (provided, of course, that the recording is realistic).
While I'm not ready to give up tubes quite yet, I'm not willing to give up the Soulution 710 either, which is just a new kind of animal I've never heard before. The only other time I've had an experience like this one was when I first heard the belt-drive Burmester CD player about ten or twelve years ago, which didn't sound like any other CD player I'd ever listened to and opened up a whole new realm of possiblities. That's what this amp does.
I wish I could tell you I knew why the Soulution 710 sounds the way it does (or rather doesn't sound the way other amps sound). But I don't know why. Look at its site and you'll find a good deal about DC to 1MHz bandwidth, short signal paths, error amplifiers, fixed-gain buffers, and current amps with a potential of 200 amp outputs. Some of it is familiar and some of it is mind-boggling. All of its bespeaks a fanatical attentiveness to every element of design. Soulution's motto is: "Do not add anything, do not omit anything." I'd say it has come close to making that something more than an advertising slogan.
I've been quite irritated by certain other reviewers proclaiming that the sound of Product X or Y can't be described because it has no signature that the reviewer recognizes (i.e., it doesn't sound like anything else that came before it). Every product has a signature, but I'll be damned if I've got a handle on the 710's yet. I'll work it out over the next few months of listening, but for the time being the best I can do is tell you that it simply sounds like what it is amplifying--like what comes ahead of it, good, bad, or in between. Through things that are themsleves as transparent as the CLX and the AAS Gabriel/Da Vinci 'table with Da Vinci Grandeeza tonearm and Da Vinci Grandeeza cartridge and Audio Tekne phonostage, it is like peering over the shoulder of the mastering engineer.
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Sorry for the late response, but I just read your post and very much appreciate your input. I am using Goldmund SRM 250 amps to drive the MInis. I bought them to drive my surround channels which is where they will end up when I purchase a new front end amp. They are very musical.
Heard the Soulutions Pre/710 combo with Magicos (V3 & Mini); for me they sound good (great) but seems as if they don't tick the musicality correctly, dealer played with the cables and it moved around but still something missing. I heard this quite a few times in what I could call a very good listening room.
When the amps were repalced with VTL 450's reference suddenly things started to make more sense, even if I feel that the VTLS are a bit on the "take it" side.
Maybe impressive at 1st question is long term listening will be okay.
Tim
Heard the Soulutions Pre/710 combo with Magicos (V3 & Mini); for me they sound good (great) but seems as if they don't tick the musicality correctly, dealer played with the cables and it moved around but still something missing. I heard this quite a few times in what I could call a very good listening room.
When the amps were repalced with VTL 450's reference suddenly things started to make more sense, even if I feel that the VTLS are a bit on the "take it" side.
Maybe impressive at 1st question is long term listening will be okay.
Tim
The (maybe) best system I have ever listened to in my life was the following in Athens Hi-End show 2008 in Greece.I would say that it had almost everything somebody could ask for including timbre,dynamics etc..
Just a note to my Asian friend they do look better in person than in the pictures and I spoke to Cyrill from the Soulution comapny and he expressed the issue that they are hard to photograph and make look good.
Do you like the magico v3 with the soulution gears?
Hello, I own one system that is composed by:
Hansen the King V2 speakers,, soulution 700 and 710, and Puccini , many cables as Pranawire cosmos speakers and IC, KS emotion speakers and IC, Gabriel and Jade IC, and in my opinion the Soultion sounds very well, I owned also Halcros monos, the Soulution sounds better IMHO, for me are more liquid, faster, so or more transparents, better soundstage with better tonal timbre, are the best? I think not, as I remember , perhaps, FM is a little more organicand liquid , Gruensch also is more tube like but not so fast and dynamic, Boulder for some people is so good or better, anpther friends loves Spectral, I have heard Spectral systems that sounds excellent, Horch also sounds very well, the EAR monos are fantastics, well you know each one have different taste, next one for me? I will like to hear Sovereign....
As you can see I don´t have the Soulution player, but I heard it face to face to the Scarlatti system, I prefers the Scarlatti, more expensive, but at the demo, many opined that prefered the Soulution, and more knowing that is less expensive than the Scarlatti, but the Scarlatti is my dream...
The above post more or less reflect my experiences with Soulution gears, although they may be very good compared to the more known hi-end brands ie.Krell, Mark Levinson, MBL etc., there are more to life than that to make proper and value judgements. Putting their pricing into consideration, IMO they ought to be compared to the more upper end brands, those that seemingly did not get their fair share of exposures in the medias, but are very well known worldwide to be historically excellent as well. In addition to those great names already mentioned above as references, I would add to the table top end amplifications from Gryphon and JDF. Thus outcome here will not only tell of how good the Soulution gears really are, but also most importantly, how well they actually stand at the very top of the game.
In my opinion, Gryphon has made some of the worst sounding preamplifiers and amplifiers it has ever been my misfortune to endure.
To suggest putting them in any league other than "The Masochists Second Division", is a joke.
I disagree with that remark, having heard them at some audio shows through the years. They are no longer sold in the US but are some of the better solid state components available, although they are expensive. Flemming Rasmussen of Gryphon has a solid reputation.
Another marque that isn't well known but is available in the US and has sounded excellent is Karan Acoustics.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
I'm not a user and have got nothing for, or against the Gryphon, just wondering of the hype made by a number of seasoned audiophiles from other forums. One had even compared them (a lot) to the likes of top line Wavac, Halcro, MBL 9011 and Goldmund Telos 2500 (to name a few), before finally making them his resident amps. Just as well the Halcro or even subject of this thread may not be to everyone's taste, yours is one differing opinion which make thread as these the more alive and interesting.
There are many products that idividuals may be happy with and think are the 'creme de la creme' of the high-end audio industry.
I'm happy for them.
To take the quantum leap of placing them alongside similar products which have achieved almost universal status among respected reviewers from TAS, Stereophile as well as members of the audiophile community who contribute to Audigon, Audio Asylum etc is simply impudent.
Gryphon has been around for over 20 years and if you can find me the gushing comparisons from respected reviewers, the Product of the Year Awards from accepted high-end journals and all the manufacturers anxious to demonstrate their own equipment at Hi-Fi shows with Gryphon gear, then I will also accept their claim to fame.
I have many years experience with Gryphon gear both in my home and in my friend's home who has continually had their 'top-of-the-line' preamps and monoblocks. They even retailed their own speaker cables (which were in fact re-branded NBS cables)....and if you know the sound of these cables, you will know the sound of Gryphon gear.
If any individual can place his favourite electronic gear alongside such firms as Lamm, MBL, Audio Research, VTL, Halcro and Boulder without any justification other than his own opinion, we consumers are truly in a murky market?
Halcro: Gryphon has been around for over 20 years and if you can find me the gushing comparisons from respected reviewers, the Product of the Year Awards from accepted high-end journals and all the manufacturers anxious to demonstrate their own equipment at Hi-Fi shows with Gryphon gear, then I will also accept their claim to fame.
< Similar can be said of FM Acoustics--pretty low keyed, not much exposures either, but still many can attest that they are amongst the very finest audio gears money can buy. Well.. maybe not alongside on this one, more likely to be above those you have listed.
Just as Kondo, Shindo and Wavac gears not getting their fair share in the lime light doesn't mean that they are not a force to be reckoned with. Likewise the Soulution, doesn't mean that only just recently with the appropriate media attention they have since begun to sounding good. They are there, around for a couple of years now, just waiting to be discovered.
That said, of course credible reviews and awards do help significantly into shaping our buying decisions, but to have an open mind and ears matter most.
Doesn't Halcro produce his own line? P***ing on other people's parades isn't cool!
"Similar can be said of FM Acoustics--pretty low keyed, not much exposures either, but still many can attest that they are amongst the very finest audio gears money can buy. Well.. maybe not alongside on this one, more likely to be above those you have listed."
Well I have not heard FM Acoustics so you may be right?, but I have heard Gryphon!
The fact remains that if any one of us can elevate his favourite gear to the ranks of The Gods with the mere stroke of the keyboard, then we don't need reviewers or comparisons against the accepted "Reference Equipment"?
I DO have an open mind in this regard.....that is why I take it seriously when Jonathan Valin waxes lyrical over the previously unheard-of Soulution amplifiers because I KNOW he has heard the very best there is in comparison.
I had for 20 years, a Kebschull valve pre-amp and a Perraux PM1850 power amp which I had compared in my own system against Naim, Audio Research, Krell, Gryphon, Electrocompaniet, Vaic, Goldmund and determined that they were markedly superior. Did that give me the right to publicly elevate these 2 brands to the ranks of 'Reference Equipment'?
If someone tried to elevate a Pioneer receiver to the ranks of Krell, Lamm, Audio Research et al, I think your 'open mind' would suffer some challenges?
I don't doubt the veracity of the fact that you have heard and really not liked Gryphon amplification.
But as someone who has listened long and hard to just about all of the leading brands over the last twenty years I can't say that your ears must be broken, but, my god, they're certainly not built the same was as mine. I suppose overtly 'strong' opinion such as those you've offered are designed to a degree to elicit a response, and maybe I am guilty of rising to your bait, but Gryphon amps really do belong at the absolute top table. And when pricing is taken into consideration I think they really are (apologies) 'The Best'.
I'm not a fanatic, I don't like Gryphon speakers one little bit, but their amplification (as well as the Mikado CD player) have a stunning combination of power and transparency - a very organic presentation not fussy about genre and not tearing apart any recording not of audiophile quality.
So, to anyone else out there reading this thread, I would say give Gryphon a listen for yourself, don't listen to our arguments, go make your own mind up.
Kind Regards.
Ok let me repeat here, I've got no interest whatsoever in Gryphon, nor much exposures to them admitedly. In my brief stints with them in a friend's system driving a WP7 a couple of years back, impression was that, although not exceptional, they were sounding quite good. But the hype made by other forums made me curious, and "if" they are what they are said to be today, they certainly deserve to be acknowledged. Maybe not the best, or maybe not even deserving enough to be ranking up there at the very top yet, but addressing them as being the worst sounding products and referencing them to receivers is simply irrational IMO, sorry. Now, let's put this to rest and let thread continue with it's subject matter, the Soulution that is?
Halcro : I had for 20 years, a Kebschull valve pre-amp and a Perraux PM1850 power amp which I had compared in my own system against Naim, Audio Research, Krell, Gryphon, Electrocompaniet, Vaic, Goldmund and determined that they were markedly superior.
< Oh btw, I had lived with Perraux amp in early 80's for couple of years driving a pair of Acoustats speakers. Can still recall how they sounded. Remembered even tried taming them with (tubes) ARC SP8, SP10mkII and VTL Ultimate, but still.. Well if your opinion stands as above, I have not much to say. Probably they really do need a capsule to fix the cold.. =)) Cheers!
Anybody here ever heard solid-state amplifiers or preamplifiers from a Japanese artisanal high-end manufacturer called Technical Brain?
I don't remember hearing them but have heard of them. The website is at http://www.technicalbrain.co.jp/ Do I recall correctly that they may have shown at CES? Do they have a US distributor now?
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
Is that a jeopardy question? da da da da da da da dada da da dada da da da
Hi Jon, do you think the Soulution is better than FM Acoustics?
Chris
<< do you think the Soulution is better than FM Acoustics?>>
Chris,
I don't know. I've reviewed exactly one piece of FM Acoustics gear about twelve years ago (FM almost never gives out review samples), and that was a phonostage--an early version of the current FM 122 MkII. It was excellent; it was also the first latter-day phonostage with adjustable RIAA curves. I wish I could tell you more than this, but it wouldn't be fair to FM or to Soulution. All I can say with confidence is that the Soulution gear is the best solid-state equipment I've heard in my system.
Jon
Hi mr Valin,
it's possible to have your review of FM 122 phono preamp?
Thank you in advance
Maurizio
Will the 740 also accept input, to act as a dac as well?
Yes.
A personal reference amplifier, that is, regardless of "creed" or poweroutput is mated with a speaker that
makes use of its power in a way that allows it to drive the speaker as inteneded.
And that this is most likely more important for the resulting sound than if it is called Soulution or FM or Sovereign..
Because in my view a fully and totally load invariant amp, that is totally oblivious to the load presented, does not exist.
On the other hand...
But I do sense that some amps come so close, as to almost be like this.
I would probably deduce from reading this thread, that you view the Soulution's to be ...THIS type of amp.
Sort of, they are extremely pricey, but if you have them, they just make the speaker repoduce the music , end of discussion.
Because this is what I think of an amp that is a reference amp. It will drive a loudspeaker, with signal. It becomes the signal it is feed!
Hm... is this the absolute sound then...
Hm...
Which amp is better. Driving what speaker one could ask... or has than line just been crossed and this could be a omni power reference..
Far be it for me to question here... but don't you think that you might be taken by the moment and experience with this amp Mr Valin?
Jonathan V,
I just read your post on page two so I hope no one minds me answering your question. Thanks,
Cole H
<<Far be it for me to question here... but don't you think that you might be taken by the moment and experience with this amp Mr Valin?>>
Yeah, I do. But, honestly, how else could one respond to a piece of stereo gear save for "by the moment and experience" ? (And, BTW, with the Soulution amp that "moment and experience" is now stretching out to half a year.) I think what you mean (or mean to imply) is that I might have been smitten with a particular combination (or relatively small sampling) of stuff, which is true.
I repeat: This is the best solid-state amp I've heard in my system. I'm not claiming it is THE best solid-state amp, although I'm willing to bet that it is among a small handful that might be called "the best." Let's face it: I haven't heard some of the contenders in my own system; plus I haven't heard every contending speaker out there (or every speaker I've reviewed) with these amps. What I can say with confidence is that driving a difficult load like the CLX or driving an easier load like the Magico M5, the Soulution is superb, with a colorlessness, resolution, and level of transparency to sources that I haven't heard before from solid-state.
I know reviewers love to discover the newest things but I find it sad that that happens many times because they ignore the companies we all know and companies that have stood the test of time. Buyers beware for many of the exotic names bandied about are impossible to resell if you buy them and change your mind. I heard the Soulution and it did sound really good however they have little distribution and almost no sales at present. In the economic world we live in today a caution is not a bad thing especially when there are many companies that have been at or near the state of the art for over 20 years. I see so many "gargage brands" at shows and I wonder what anyone will ever do with them if they decide to buy something else. I think that it would be interesting for readers to know how this does compare to ARC, VTL, Spectral, Krell etc since these products do exist, do have resale, do have service in U.S. and cost far less. A state of the art ARC is 40k a pair and this company will certainly be here to service if the product needs it. Halcro was a darling just a short time ago and they have pulled offices out of the U.S. and products like Gryphon, FM acoustics, ,Wavac and others I have to ask do they really exist at all since I personally no no one that sells them. I know different areas of the world have different items for sale and in some countries the more expensive it is and the more esoteric is a big turn on but many audiophiles relate price to sound which is not always the case.
I personally have no knowledge of the financial position of any of these companies but I have lived through many failures and I expect that we will see many more. Tweeter, Circuit, Magnolia, Sound Advise, Ultimate, Hi Fi buys and the list grows. If we continue to loose hi fi stores at all levels there will be only a few that survive and IMHO the companies that made the high end deserve our support. I hope that the expensive esoteric does not surplant the absolute sound since these products are just not really available to see and hear.
I am just expressing my opinion and I am not trying to undermine your columns or the companies I am just giving some food for thought! I also love your enthusiasm and your insight however I think that we stand on the ground of those that came before and in a time of need these mostly American companies deserve our support and our help.
> If we continue to loose hi fi stores at all levels there will be only a few that survive and IMHO the companies that made the high end deserve our support.
By "the companies that made the high end" you could probably start with Marantz and Fisher, not with relative newcomers to the industry, including some of the brands mentioned in this thread. Fisher is long gone, and Marantz isn't the same company we knew back in the 60s and 70s, but there are others that are still doing serious high end. Are ARC, Magnepan, Levinson, Conrad-Johnson, et al. the only ones deserving of significant coverage? If so, put a fork in it, high end's done and has become a good old boys club.
It's easy to say that when some of what one sells is in current favor by the press, including products from newer companies. Are they deserving of press? Perhaps so, yet I could name many manufacturers who get short shrift or are passed over who are at least as deserving of recognition, and certainly not just some I happen to sell. Some have been around 20 to 30 years or more and are still going strong, building reliable, amazingly excellent sounding gear.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
Overall a good message but “these mostly American companies deserve our support and our help”????
Arc is owned by an italian private equity firm, for instance or have you heard of the world trade organization and what it tries to accomplish or did you notice there are quite a few non-americans in this forum?
Having said that, i bought the krells for the exactly same reasons you cite in your message. Plus the new entrants understand the audiophile’s craving for new, exotic gear and price their products accordingly. I considered the soulutions for a while then saw their export prices then i stopped considering them. And i won’t care about them regardless of what jv thinks of them.
Thanks and I know that ARC was recently purchased buth the people there are the same forever. I do not see them changing anything. There are also some other old timers that are not american companies that deserve support too. I am not trying to waive the flag I am however interested in the survival of what is a very special american driven artisitic industry. If we do not come to its support and help it it will go away and then all that will be left is the " uberfi" and garage companies that offer nothing more than an expensive box. I think that readers should be aware that you want three things
Best Product
Best Service
Best price
In fact you may be lucky to get one or two especially with small exotic companies with no track record.
Krell makes superb electronics, no doubt. And for most of my audio life I've sworn by ARC tubes--and still do (Italian ownership or no). BUT...the Soulution gear is the best solid-state I've heard in my home. Period. You can choose to care or not to care about my opinion (it is only one man's opinion), but it is a fact that of all the electronics in the world--and he has heard more of the creme de la creme than even I have and has access to anything he wants--Alon Wolf chose to show with Soulution at the world's biggest high-end trade fare with a statement speaker that was being put on display for the first time ever. Once again, this may mean nothing to you (or there may be mitigating factors--such as cost--that make Wolf's decision and my opinion unimportant). Also, I think it is only fair to point out that Elliot, who is a friend, sells ARC and Krell. Touting what one sells ahead of what one doesn't on the basis of "buying American" or the claimed stability of the company is OK as long as you're upfront about it and candid in your opinion. Anything else is a little like disinformation.
I have no horse in this race, as I've said before. I simply report on what I hear.
I have no axe to grind with Soulution or any other newbie on the block. I am not waving a flag to save my self or ARC or Krell ot anyone else. I am only pointing out some facts of life circa 2009. No one is going to bale out our industry if it goes down. The writing is not on the wall it is in 100 foot neon letters folks.
If you think guys that it does not matter what you do I am telling you that you are wrong. SO think and do what you like I am just trying to point out that your decisions do matter.
I understand that Jon's job is that of reporter and reviewer and has no stake in what happens but the rest of us do. For a long time companies like ARC, CJ, VTL, Spectral, and many others have defined the state of the art and were desired and respected all over the world without support all of us will be bying what a reviewer likes mail order with no place to see it or hear it. Trust me it's not that far fetched. Today Best buy announced they are closing Magnolia another one time quality retailer. As these places die the products and the dollars they generated disappear and they will not be replaced.
"Survival of the Fittest", well economically it's like a jungle out there now anyway. So let the so called 'more established companies' do the worrying and not sit on their laurels. They just have to come up with innovations in order to survive this very unfortunate cycle by offering the better sounding and/or better value oriented products to the market (consumers).
Stake or no stake aside, YES, we would love to hear what the reviewers have to say of their intimate sessions with those newbie esoteric gears. But NO, we will not simply be buying into whatever they like, it's our hard earned money to spend after all, and ultimately, we have each our own sets of instruments built-in (ears and some brain?) to finally detect (evaluate and decide) whether the said product/s do commensurate with our own chosen set of goals and priorities in sound reproduction towards musical bliss.
Lets look at the facts of some of these foreign "garage brands".
MBL - 30 years in business
FM Acoustics - 36 years in business
Soulution - 43 years in business (engineering team)
Gryphon - 33 years in business
Compare/contrast with the American ones mentioned...
ARC - 39 years in business
VTL - 29 years in business
Spectral - 32 years in business
Krell - 29 years in business
When one considers how much larger the foreign market is than the American market, you can understand why some of these foreign "garage brands" have been around on average longer than American :)
Well observed, BlueAdept.
Elliot Goldman.
I tell you, every country has a small batch of eminently good audio companies, and THEY have all their days fought against the
American domination, especially on big poweramps, sources and speakers.
However, there are and have been companies that are "larger" in some countries than their counterparts from America.
The audio industry in Europe and Asia is vast, I mean it is VAST!!! So is the market... China is growing as a market.
The market is in change. Who know were it will all end up...
I think it is great that you speak up!
But let's not forget that it is a market, not just in product, but in news, rumour, fact, "on display", in enticements...
At the end of a day, a review is but a review, people will have to go out and listen. The reviewer is not responsible in the way you seem to imply...Mr Goldman.
And it may be that sound has periods of trends to them also...
What is the current trend? Is it to have what all the other top european magazines golden ears have, as I feel you are implying...
However, What you are saying is a thing that American interests definetly should be put into the equation, and I see in ALL countries and their respective audio magazines and on-line sites that they have been thinking like this, and most likely will continue to do so.
We readers of magazines know this, that each country will in a fine way protect its own interests.
When I read a magazine from say France, I know there will be a slight bias, because the tester grew up there, learned to love the local audio taste to call it that.
But today, the market is the world, this is about to change I think, If a product is good, it is good, it's not anymore equivalent from whence it came...
Thank you for reading.
Gentleman, this has been the largest market in the world for a long time and if it dies there will be little for you to see and or hear anywhere. I am not saying that only American companies are good. I am saying nothing of the kind. I believe there are many world wde companies that offer PRODUCT and SERVICE however there are many that do not. A small importer with little sales offers very little in the market place.Soulution which may have been in business for 39 years has not been in the audio business for 39 years ( that I am aware of) and if it has it has not been sold in the US. Halcro has other businesses also but is now gone from US. You mention some other European companies and they may be aropund for a long time and if that is true thats wonderful but I am trying to make a point here guys and that point is you all want to see , and hear these products before you consider buying them and the way things are going especially here in the US that may become a thing of the past without the survival of US dealers and manufacturers. Soulution may be the best there is and it might not be however at 115,000. a pair does it really matter? The ultra high end is fun to talk about and it is fun to listen too but if that is all we have left there will be little in the way of audio for future generations to have.
Blue you might want to check your dates ARC has been around over 50 years and is the father of high end audio here in the U.S.
Gryphon, Soulutions and FM acoustics total business amounts to a chesse burger and fries!!!!! Please think about what you say.
"Gryphon, Soulutions and FM acoustics total business amounts to a chesse burger and fries!!!!! Please think about what you say"
Elliot: What? Maybe one can not compare their sales volume to that of McDonalds (cheese burger and fries???) perhaps, but have you seen the prices and quality of these products?
When I was little, I wanted to buy Krell. It had nice, gold plated bus-bars, and a hefty case. But I bought a gold watch and a some nifty Cartier eyeglasses for the bling factor, instead, and saved my back from some heavy lifting! :)
Looking inside of Solution Audio gear, one can only smile at the cute way it is all arranged - I mean this as a compliment. It's cute and wonderful. Nerdy! And seems to sound swell. Or look at Balaboo, for example. Neat stuff! Sort of Sony. :-) Except for the Wonderful Krell MRA - where has this gone? - I haven't seen anything from Krell that looks in the same league, and we haven't even covered Gryphon, which has wonderful styling. They actually had some money to spend, these "foreign" companies.
Now is it 1/3 of the US Federal annual spending comes from loans from China? An NASA seems loathe to launch a mission, despite its budget and spending? :D We could go on, discussing the economy and innovation: look at India and China! wow.
But to say that no worth-purchasing "high end" from abroad exists is sheer isolationism. As a Canadian, I wish for a strong US economy, as we export far too much, reliantly, "down south" for our own good to be able to survive more american disaster. Plus, like many "foreign" interests own US resources, many US companies own big chunks of Canada. We gave up England, but we still have a big "umbilical" cord tied to the US of A.
But I just can't see good European brands and products slandered or Japanese ones left due to omission because of a poor US economy. Buy local might make sense as a national campaign. It might even make good economic sense. But if I had to satisfy myself with made local electronics and headphones, I'd have to commission the production of copyright knockoffs to give me any listening pleasure. Better to just get the originals, be they Japanese, European, or what. :)
Now, I'm happy to see US companies like Ayre making some smallish, interesting looking electronics, the KX-R and MX-R in particular, looking well-made. And, you have some wonderful driving country down in places like Colorado, especially in winter! Wow, I've had fun there. (So, Boulder looks interesting too, for the hi-fi guy, thought I couldn't see being able to re-sell it, given the looks - IMO) And Hawaii is in the US, too! Who hasn't had fun in Hawaii? Though, I know no Hawaii hi-fi. Manley Labs sounds "Hawaiian" though they're Californian, and hey, pro-US / anti-China, it seems. Though made for the Harley Davidson driver, it seems also, visually. You know you can get a Harley now, with a gas-box mounted IPod, right? :) Not quite hi-fi, there's no internal mounting for after market DACs and headphone amplifiers, also.
I'm just saying a lot of the better thought out hi-fi products, seem, well, "international," so, while it is possible to limit yourself to US brands, it seems hardly sensible, in light of progress. Sort of like limiting yourself to a Detroit automobile, when Japan began coming ahead in terms of affordability and manufacturing quality: it really made little sense.
I'd say, get the best you can find, and it will be happy to find a home, when you're done with it, where ever it is from.
And as for buying only from local dealers. I got my last 'phones for $7000 less than local dealer, shopping in Tokyo, largely by accident, though admittedly I was spending about $1000 a day on hotels and meals etc. there for the couple weeks when I was over. :) I still felt good, when I got home, minus the $15,000 or so that the last couple weeks of that sight-seeing vacation had cost me, which was more than the whole month before in Seoul and Patong.
I guess I could of bought some decent at the time, US Hi-Fi for that trip, but I had fun, and got to visit some girlfriends I had promised to visit .C'est la vie.
Hi-fi costs money, Less money than cars. Less money than women.
But products like the Solution 710 are "neat!" :D Just look inside them - you can see they had some talent at work. Like a nice watch, and about the same ballpark money, and much more enjoyable.
You could get a few crates of good wine for the money Solution is asking for a 710, or one meal out, if you were a big spender. :)
It's all fun.
I'm sure you have some fine hi-fi in your store, Elliot - and I've had a lot of fun in the states, every time I visited - though felt safer, each time, I admit, when I've returned, and I'm sure I'd like to visit, and see how your JM Lab's sound in your setup, compared to those in my hometown, to see if there's anything to them. :)
But I can't see great companies like Gryphon, Solution, or FM Acoustics written off, without throwing in my 2c Canadian.
Our money's about par, but Europe and Asia have quite a bit more - man, look at housing in Monaco!
Flight wise, it's still pretty cheap to travel and you could be in and out of a city you wanted to audition components in, in a day. :)
With the prevalence of IPods and Apple iTunes store, there will be plenty of music for our children, Elliot!
We don't start to discriminate hi-fi until about our "teens." :)
Cheers!
Staxguy
> Gryphon, Soulutions and FM acoustics total business amounts to a chesse burger and fries!!!!! Please think about what you say.
I'm sorry for you. You've just demonstrated your narrow minded view and lack of knowledge. Good luck to your customers.
What I mean sir is that there total business is so small that it is not a significant statistic. They are not a realistic force in the marketplace that you in fact mentioned. It has nothing to do with what they make or what it sounds like.
Don't go flying off the deep end!
Dear Blue, Just to be fair I wnet and checked some facts
Gryphon- NO dealers in the United states
FM Acoustics- One outlet in the U.S. in Colorado Springs
Soulutions- One dealer in the U.S. and that is brand new and perhaps a second but I am not sure
So how is this relavant to the conversation ??
Elliot Goldman wrote:
"Dear Blue, Just to be fair I wnet and checked some facts
Gryphon- NO dealers in the United states...
So how is this relavant to the conversation ??"
Well, at the risk of pissing into the wind of 'the facts', looks like these guys are Gryphon dealers...
www.ultimateaudiovideo.citymax.com/page/page/3698484.htm
Sorry, Elliot, but I happen to think 'the facts' are always relevant to the conversation. I mean, don't you?
UAV closed down several months ago.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
brian -- Sat, 02/14/2009 - 17:45
UAV closed down several months ago.
So, *ahem* as I said, you can't argue with the facts...
(Thanks for clearing that up Brian, and apologies to Elliot)
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine sports car, I wouldn't consider US brands but i still get service and warranties.
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine luxury car, i wouldn't consider US brands but I still get service and warranties.
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine Plasma or LCD screen, i wouldn't consider US brands but I still get service and warranties.
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine analogue watch, i wouldn't consider US brands but I still get service and warranties.
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine suit, i wouldn't consider US brands but I still get service and warranties.
If I lived in the States and wanted to buy a fine kitchen appliance, i wouldn't consider US brands but I still get service and warranties.
The whole world is the Market Place Elliot and each part does what it can best. The world Hi-End Market......"amounts to a chesse burger and fries" compared to world car market, so why don't you fight for dominance there when you already have the resources to do so with GM, Ford and Chrysler? Do you think anyone outside the US seriously considers purchasing an American car?.......yet you don't flay your arms in the air proclaiming Armaggedon there?
Since the topic of discussion here is high end audio, not cars, watches, suits, or kitchen appliances, there are some very large differences. Your earlier post in another thread can serve as a reference.
It has nothing to do with US brands, it has to do with distribution.
I don't care whether you want a car from the US, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, or any other country. It has to do with distribution. Do people in the US buy new Alfa Romeos and Citroens? Of course not. They have no dealers nor distribution in the US. So if there's a problem and you don't want to do the work yourself, you might have to buy the parts from overseas and hope a local mechanic can work on it. And the warranty won't cover the repair cost.
If your ASR Emitter or Dartzeel component fails, who's going to fix it? You're probably going to have to ship it a long distance. Maybe not all the way to Germany or Switzerland, respectively, but it wouldn't surprise me if you had to.
Drawing a parallel between automobiles and audio components not distributed and sold in the US, would you buy a car and then have to ship it to another country for service? I don't think this is a straw man argument. If anything your logic is faulty.
"Every single manufacturer was delighted and enthusiastic to be dealing directly with me (as long as there was no local distribution), and regularly offerred me up to 20% discount on retail pricing as well as full warranties."
20% off or even more than that isn't worth it if warranty coverage involves shipping out of the country. And do you think there's any resale value when you try to sell it?
If you're willing to buy expensive audio equipment without hearing it first and without any domestic support for it, in the belief that you got a great price, then you are in a very small minority. I can't tell you how many horror stories I've heard about how some audio company goes out of business and people can't get serviced. I had an expensive tube amp like that, using unobtainium parts. When you're up against that, any price you paid was too high. Get rid of the chip on your shoulder before you learn the hard way.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)