Shunyata Research Black Mamba CX and HC CX power cables
Sam -- Wed, 07/28/2010 - 16:08
Anyone try these new cables? Any reviews out there? your thoughts or experience with them would be appreciated. Thanks.
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You are not an engineer. You made that up to sound credible, much like the gibberish in shunyatas marketing materials. You may want to have your hearing checked though, you hear what you want to hear. Maybe you could pester people on an engineering forum. Are you the "guy" people love havingaround because of your persistent need to correct them ? Why aren't you solving a problem for an aerospace company instead of making your point here. The shunyata guy claims that he worked on power supplies and other relatedwork for the defenceindustry, but I'm sure he made that up much like your engineering background. How convenient. Say hi to pantsonfireguy for us.
I'd like to see you prove that I'm not an engineer. I mean, how could you possibly know? The reason why I'm not "solving a problem for an aerospace company" is because I only worked aerospace for five years and I retired from work PERIOD about three years ago. Oh, yes, and by the way, I don't know this Harrisonfire guy at all - just what he's written.
And why not address the subject under debate instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks? It makes it look like you have no real argument to offer and are just impotently knee-jerk reacting to an argument that you can't refute.
There will be those who will or who will never belive in high end cords. If u can't hear the difference consider urself lucky cuz it saved u lots of money. For those who do believe and back to the topic of the post, it appears that TAS will review the CX series cord in the next issue. Hope the black mamba is also included because it has not been reviews in the past. Should be interesting.
Unfortunately for those true-believers, humans can hear differences that don't really exist and the more gullible of those spend an awful lot of money needlessly and for nothing.
You're concern for everyone is so heart warming. As an engineer I cannot believe that you said " humans can hear differences that don't really exist", can they hear the difference or not ? If a tree falls in the forest and no is there to hear it does it make a sound ? Come on. Does a two thousand dollar fishing pole help you catch more fish ? If someone fishes for a hobby and they enjoy fishing more with a nice rig does that make them an idiot ? Nevermind, I've sure you've hit all the fishing forums and set them straight too. Maybe you and onesiesonfireguy should leave people alone and pursue your miserably perfect lives, Oh wait, I doubt there is a forum for that, well then, go annoy yourselves, sorry, I guess you've done that too which explains your presence, unfortuantely. I'm sure you'll find someone to bother, misery loves company. This isn't about the science the sound, your just attempting (and doing a great job) to prove what an ass you are.
"I cannot believe that you said " humans can hear differences that don't really exist", can they hear the difference or not ?" What a stupid comment! Yes people can hear real differences, and yes people can "imagine" that they hear differences where none exist. It's called expectational bias and in any meaningful, scientific test, the testers work hard to eliminate the effects of such biases. If they don't, the test doesn't prove anything
If I had a dollar for every time I heard a fellow audio enthusiast SWEAR that he can hear the difference between one cable or interconnect and another, only to have those "differences" suddenly and magically disappear in a double-blind test where he could no longer SEE (or otherwise physically determine) which cable he was listening to at any moment, I'd be a much richer man.
But you do bring up a good point. Does a two thousand dollar fishing pole help a fisherman catch more fish? The answer is: probably not. But there are other things besides catching fish involved in selecting a fishing pole, I suspect. There's build quality and the owner's appreciation of it, there's possibly the "feel" of the line through the pole that MIGHT heighten the fisherman's enjoyment of the strike, and finally there's the notion that this pole might last a lifetime. All of these factors are appreciated by most fishermen and are bought by rich ones. But wires and cables are a bit different. Yes, there is always the bling factor, and it's real. If an audiophile tells me that he bough a set $4000 cables because (A) he likes the way they look and (B) can afford to buy them without making any sacrifices with regard to his family or standard of living, I say go for it! As long as he isn't buying those cables because someone convinced him that they "have a sound" or that this "sound" is better than some other lesser cable's sound, or that the bling he's buying is just that, and not based upon some vague notion that the build quality of these cables somehow makes them worth $4000, then I have no problem with that either. Good build quality IS definitely worth a premium and top build quality, while expensive, is not exorbitant. In fact you can buy top quality interconnects on the web for less than $50/meter pair. This is reasonable. They won't sound any different from cheap plastic molded cables that often come packed with mass-market components (nor will they sound any different that a $4000/meter pair either), but they will likely make a better gas-tight connection with the female RCAs on the components with which they're mating, and will likely last longer than the often crimped-on connectors of the cheaper spread, but above that level, spending more money won't buy you any more performance, either audible or build-quality wise.
See, my concern on this point is far from altruistic. I don't like the bad name that high-end audio has acquired over the years as a product of these charlatans plying their trade amongst the unwary by pushing notions that there is somehow some unknown "magic" associated with the reproduction of music, and that playback equipment can be somehow enhanced by the haphazard application of random nostrums and prosthetic devices such as green pens for CDs, myrtlewood blocks on top of amplifiers, ceramic insulators to lift speaker wires off of the floor, interconnects and speaker cables that "improve" the sound. Even if there was any legitimate science behind this stuff. The way audiophiles apply these things to their systems has no logic or reason behind it. Any scientist will tell you that just trying different stuff without any thought to how it affects the experiment synergistically, is an empty procedure and one might well do more harm than good. Luckily, in audio, this junk does absolutely nothing except cheat the buyer. But it does make the non-audiophile community laugh at us. That's what I don't like.
Mr. Graves,
How do you respond to people like me who have differentiated cables in a double blind test? Further, since you cite your PHd in engineering I'd like you to post a point-by-point refutation of Shunyata's published data that shows how any fairly inexpensive after market power cord improves the performance of any piece of audio electronics. My prediction is that you will not be specific or scientific in your refutation of the many factual argument Shunyata has put forth. There are MANY PHd engineers who strongly disagree with your opinion of power cords. I eagerly await your specific refutation of the facts that have been put forth in a very readable and succinct form. Surely, your education would make that quite a simple task. When you post your factual refutation as opposed to the rhetorical one you've been engaging in, it'll be interesting to hear what equally qualified engineers think of your "expert" analysis. My guess is that you'd prefer to keep the discussion vague, so that the foolish can remain fools. Prove us wrong. I urge others with credentials to read Shunyata's white paper and consider how many professional recording engineers swear by power cords and the differences they make. I guess Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax are idiots, as well. 40 years of award-winning experience in audio mastering strikes me as all the qualification one would need to trust a person's opinion about whether something is useful or worthless. Neither of the men I mention shill for any audio company and never have.
"How do you respond to people like me who have differentiated cables in a double blind test?" One of four ways. You're either lying, the test was incorrectly set up, One of the cables wasn't just a conductor, but rather was designed to be a filter with external components hanging on it, or you were extremely lucky. I have been privy to literally a dozen such test, and in none of them was anybody able to distinguish between cables in any statistically meaningful way. The results are always statistically the same as blind chance.
As for your challenge, since it is your side that is asserting the existence of a phenomenon that physics and the math behind it says doesn't exist, then the onus is upon you to provide real scientific proof that such a phenomenon actually does exist. That's the way science works. There's an old adage that states you cannot prove a negative, but you can prove a positive. The ball is in your court, and I'm willing to listen to any reasonable hypothesis, but understand that I'm much to lazy to try to prove Shunyata's published data wrong. 8^)
Being asked to refute an argument supported by scientific data is nothing remotely like being asked to " prove a negative ", as any scientist knows. Your contention is that power cords do not affect the performance of audio equipment in a meaningful way. Shunyata has hit " the ball" back to you. Predictably, you're "too lazy" to respond. I appreciate your willingness to admit it. I wonder if laziness is all there is to it. In the time it's taken you to post your numerous posts here, you could have already eviscerated Shunyata's published data, if it is indeed so flimsy. I rest my case. By the way, you have urged people not to launch ad hominem attacks...be careful not to imply that people whose experience contradicts yours are liars. It's not a very scientific argument....of course not much of what you post here actually is.
"How do you respond to people like me who have differentiated cables in a double blind test?" One of four ways. You're either deluded (or purposely lying), the test was incorrectly set up, one of the cables wasn't just a conductor, but rather was designed to be a filter with external components hanging on it , or you were extremely lucky. I have been privy to literally a dozen such test, and in none of them was anybody able to distinguish between cables in any statistically meaningful way. The results are always statistically the same as blind chance (of course, in all these tests the cables under test were straight conductors that had flat frequency response from DC to at least 50 Khz, and were not designed to be filters but to be simply conductors).
As for your challenge, since it is your side that is asserting the existence of a phenomenon that physics and the math behind it says doesn't exist, then the onus is upon you to provide real scientific proof that such a phenomenon actually does exist. That's the way science works. There's an old adage that states you cannot prove a negative, but you can prove a positive. The ball is in your court, and I'm willing to listen to any reasonable hypothesis, but understand that I'm much to lazy to try to prove Shunyata's published data wrong. 8^)
P.S.
You also avoid responding to the perplexing fact that so many people who earn their living recording, mixing and mastering audio of every category hear the differences in cables and power cords and expend considerable sums of money on this equipment. They do so without making public endorsements and are in no way renumerated for their choices. They have no reason to delude themselves because neither the public nor many of the musicians they work with care in any way whether they use one wire or the other. They are judged by the audible results of their work. You contend that people such as Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax are either liars or incompetent because they report hearing what power cords and interconnects can do. That's not a contention I would make in a public forum.
Did it ever occur to you that these purchases were made in order to cater to a specific market for their recordings? Also, did it occur to you that these people might be buying these products because of the reliability imparted by superior build quality?
Also, in many cases, these products are PLACED with these highly respected audiophile icons in exchange for promotional consideration. Where do we read about the cables used by these audiophile labels? We read about them in the liner notes of the actual recordings themselves listed under headings such as "Equipment Used In This Recording". Who wouldn't jump at having their entire studio or recording chain outfitted with expensive, well built cables for no cost? I know I would (and actually have had my stereo so equipped under similar circumstances and for this same reason). Remember, I never said that these expensive cables have no merit, I merely maintain that they have NO SOUND. A different thing entirely.
Perhaps you should ponder these possibilities.
Mr. Graves,
It is one thing to disagree, even strongly, with people or companies on forums and over topics you might hold a different opinion on. It's quite another to make comments such as the following:
>>>By the by. I have read Shunyata's paper and it's pure techno-gibberish! It has no engineering merit whatsoever."<<<
This, and other public comments of yours referring to legitimate commercial companies like ours as "charlatans" bears far greater responsibility from a credibility and a legal standpoint. You can disagree to your hearts content about the "audibility" relationships or lack thereof regarding our impulse current measurements. You may also try to explain away the countless engineers, electronics and speaker manufacturers and major recording corporations positive test results, blind or not, with different power cords. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and point of view.
There is a line, however, Mr Graves, and you have crossed it. Two credible physicists created the DTCD measurement analyzer. The white paper explains its function and purpose completely, and without "gibberish". Many credible engineers have reviewed these measurements and the process that derived them. While some who have not performed empirical listening tests may freely disagree on audibility connections, _none_ can question that the results were honestly derived or from a legitimate measurement process. The fact you claim to have read this info and refer to it as gibberish, without any specific references or science based reasoning, tells me you don't know what you are into here on several levels.
The fact that you come to an open public forum and use derisive terms that amount to name calling without any specific charge or evidence is a major problem. You are not the first person to review our information, but you are the first to call the entire process, measurements and science explanation "gibberish", which I can assure you they are not. There are countless pages of explanation, measurement data and a white paper on our site, as well as photographs and coverage of the measurement device posted. I have NO problem with you arguing that this does not prove audibility. There is no way to prove "audibility" relationships on an open forum or web-page, no matter how complete or compelling measurement info may be. That is why all on-line arguments of this nature are almost entirely pointless, but you have elevated this into a different arena with your churlish remarks.
You are free to argue your points related to your experience and your beliefs. However, if you name call and refer to the people involved as charlatans, and the process or measurements as being gibberish with NO posted evidence or proof, you are exposing yourself to trouble.
I strongly suggest sticking to whatever argument you might have and leave the name calling behind, unless you are interested in defending your words outside of internet forums, where its a little less easy to act the well informed tough-guy. Argument is fine, have at it. Slander is not.
Respectfully,
Grant Samuelsen
Shunyata Research
Mr. Samuelson;
My initial inclination was to not dignify this above self-serving nonsense with a response. But talk about "crossing the line." This is a perfect case of "the pot calling the kettle black." If I were you, I'd look-up the legal meaning of the word "slander" before throwing it around willy-nilly. There are specific criteria that must be fulfilled before a slander charge can be legally brought against anyone and the specifics of this thread, with regard to your company's products don't qualify.
First of all, if you go back re- read my comments, you'll find that nowhere did I specifically call Shunyata Research or it's personnel "charlatans" by name. I referred to an entire industry made up of people building dubious high-end audio related products. You may infer, from the context that I was including your company in that broad classification, but luckily for the rest of us you may infer according to your wits, but the legal profession must infer according to the law and I have broken none.
My comments are MY OPINIONS and are voiced as such on an opinion forum. If you can find any post where I specifically slandered you consistent with the laws pertaining to slander, then I hereby retract said specific assertions and offer my humble apologies. For my own part, I don't need to mention your products, specifically, in order to doubt the efficacy of this entire genre of products, and will, in the interest of fair play, not mention your company, by name, or it's products, advertising literature or dealer network again. I will, however, continue, as I see fit, to cast aspersions on an entire sub-industry that I see as rogues, charlatans and scalawags as is my right under the First Amendment of the US Constitution. You (and anyone else reading this) may infer as to whom I am referring as you like.
Noun
charlatan (plural charlatans)
A malicious trickster; a fake person, especially one who deceives for personal profit.
Synonyms
swindler
mountebank
fraudster
con-artist
con-man
imposter, impostor
fraud
phony
fake
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . Sounds accurate to me.
Misanthrope
Mr. Graves,
We now know exactly what kind of person you are. I urge others to ignore you as I will. You cannot argue the merits of your case.
Oh, please do! I'm so tired of this ponderously tiresome thread. If nobody responded to me, then I have no reason to come back to this particular forum for this particular thread. I've said all I wanted to say on this incredibly boring subject, and I end up just repeating myself endlessly.
By the way, a forum like this one is a two-edged sword. You may think that you know exactly what kind of a person *I* am, but I also know what kind of a person you are. I'd rather be me than you....8^)
How sad it is that some people occupy their time interrupting hobbyst forums where no one is asking questions about the merit or value of something, but are instead minding their own business, sharing the joys of their experience and love of certain products. These people lurk and cannot resist heckling people who are not even asking for debate. This forum was hijacked and I wish forum moderators would at the very least ban people from participating who have clearly strayed off of topic....which was to solicit feedback from people who have actually listened to Shunyata's Black Mamba CX line. I'm sorry I participated in the fools errand of speaking to people who have no interest in this. It won't happen again, no matter what names they throw around or absurdities they espouse.
Yea....The thread has gone off topic...but even if one stays on topic...the shunyata guy doesn't want to talk about his cords here.... he keeps saying call me... other dealers play bs games with words don't want to talk over the phone and want to meet with you...etc.. Selling something super expensive is fine...but at least allow the customer to get all the information needed. Shunyata guys and dealers are not even willing to discuss the basic info about their cords....even if you are not even asking about the price. May be its top secret information....I don't know. R.H reviewed the CX line of cables...he mentions about the black mamba but nothing much about it in his article. Should we just cough up $1000 a pop on power cord without even getting some basic info and comparisons on it? Doesn't sound like a good idea..... and the way things are going.....I don't know how long the industry can stay afloat. the only way to do so is to keep cost of production/housing etc minimal and here and there sell $20000 worth of cords as a side business/hobby.
So back to the topic...What makes the Black Mamba so special? how does it compare to others in the line? what amp cord is needed?etc..etc..etc. The website is awesome, photos amazing, and in person they look very luxurious but what else? how does the sound compare?
Sam,
Since there appears to be no moderation of this forum and you started it, please tell people with no first hand experience with the cords in question to butt out. The reason, I suspect, that Grant does not try to sell you cords on this forum is that selling is not the purpose of this forum. He has answered every question I've ever asked him and it has frequently resulted in me holding off a purchase or spending less money. Draw your own conclusions. I would say the black mamba CX (I have not heard the HC version) provides about 75 percent of what my Python CX's do. The mamba's are less detailed, have a more slightly more restricted soundstage and not quie as much bass heft, in my experience. However, they KILL the Python Helix if you ever had one of those in your system. You won't find many used black mamba's on the used market and when you do, they go quickly...usually for 400 to 450. The cable company loans them out and all you'd be out is a 20 dollar shipping fee....might be a quick way settle the issue for you. Happy listening.
Sam,
The _only_ reasons we don't use forums to talk about our products is to avoid using hobbyist forums for what could be construed as commercial promotion. Most forums prohibit this anyway, but it can be a lose-lose proposition anytime a manufacturer participates. Say too little and get accused of withholding info, too much and people like Mr Graves accuse you of promotion. Even in this thread, when responding to repeated attacks, I am accused of being "self-serving". The alternative is to stay quiet allow people to post nonsense and be called names with no regard for the truth. This is why manufacturers-the vast majority, never participate.
Despite all that, I have participated and answered many questions, even those posed by people with obvious agendas. I respond to upwards of 20-30 e-mailed questions a day and we have dealers that will do the same. There should be no compulsory participation by manufacturers on any open forums. They are for hobbyists to share information, experience and debate. The only participation I engage in typically is when I am pointed to comments that are untruthful or full of misinformation.
The vast majority of dealers allow home trials of products, including ours. To answer your question, I believe our less expensive products out-perform the more expensive with regards to price and performance. I normally recommend the Black Mamba CX and HC cords over the Python CX for this reason. The one exception possibly being for large current draw amps or power distributors. I could continue, but would rather not use this, or any forum to answer personal questions because it would be inappropriate and counter to the rules that exist on most public hobby forums. THAT is why we ask people with questions to contact us directly, not because "we are hiding" anything.
Regards,
Grant
Shunyata Research
Thankyou Vhiner and Grant, finally something useful info regarding the black mamba. Thanks for that. It's hard to force people out of here or change their view other than just ignore them. Even seasoned reviewers sometimes talk nonsense on here all u can do is ignore it. forums are a great source of info given it is correct. I have been an audiophile for years. And in the recent years have become extremely disappointed with my interaction with dealers. Even if you spend $5k to $10k on products it's still not enough to earn their respect. They get the sale done and start the same Bs garbage again. Round and round talk. No straight talk and it gets frustrating. I can imagine the market is tough but no one is going to just dump thousands of dollars worth of hard earned money without properly looking into things. May be customers behave badly. I don't know. I'm sincere and like to do Buisness with someone who treats me well. ESPECIALLY if I have bought very expensive things from them. $5k to $10k is expensive to most, maybe not for dealers. Straight talk and to the point. If dealers and manufacturers are so concerned why not make some fixed rules. Consultation fee like a DR charges. Or if u get advice for me u must buy something from me or have bought something in the past. The BS games is enough. Get to the point and get to Buisness. It's only a dream. The reality is that this area is so small and restricted that most companies are small and making it a career would be tough. I know tons of people outside from work friends etc etc. Most no one know about high end cuz they listen to mp3 and cannot imagine buying $50 a pop LPs, 10k cd player. 4k power cords or 10k interconnects. That's a tough sell. But those who do Buy this stuff the manufacturers and dealers should be nice and informative to them. IMHO.
Nordost and someone else did a presentation at the 2010 RMAF on measurements of what goes on with power cords and resonance control devices. I'm having trouble finding the on-line video, which I know exists because I watched it a couple of days ago.
However, the material, including graphic output, is available on the Nordost site, here: http://www.nordost.com/downloads/New%20Approaches%20To%20Audio%20Measure...
The effects of power cords are real; there are objective, repeatable measurements that correlate with listening experience. I found the presentation most illuminating, and I commend it to your attention.
Jonathan
Jonathan,
Thanks for posting that link. It's helpful, fascinating and provides yet more impetus to move the discussion beyond whether power cords work and on to how. Unfortunately, I assume the doubters will stay where they are, in spite of all the audible and scientific evidence to the contrary.
I appreciate another tool to help explain why "mere" pieces of wire can make such a difference in sound reproduction. Shunyata's Caelin Gabriel said in a recent interview that AC power "doesn't affect sound quality---it is it....in audio we think that the source is is the signal that is embedded or encoded on some media, i.e. a record,CD or tape.The actual source of what we hear is the power as supplied from the wall, rectified and filtered by the power supply into a relatively stable DC source. It is this DC power source that is the fundamental source of everything. It's what moves the coils in a speaker." This physicists' view of the science behind sound reproduction is what drives the flat earth society nuts. It's over their heads. Fortunately, you don't have to be a physicist to enjoy the resulting inventions!
There's a lot of hyperbole on this thread. Power conditioners can "clean up" the wall AC so the argument that what comes out of the wall is so bad that it makes no difference what you do thereafter is incorrect and can be discarded. As an example from my own profession, water is potable from the tap but it is not fit for use in hemodialysis where the bloodstream is exposed to the dialysate. A reverse osmosis unit, water softener, and carbon filtration treat the water (analogous to a power conditioner) and it is delivered to the dialysis machine by piping designed to resist biofilm formation and leaching of wall impurities (analogous tot he power cord). However, all this purification doesn't make the water taste better. I would suggest that AC conditioning in conjunction w/ high quality power cords eliminate the AC noise from the wall and the spurious signals in the environment allowing for a quieter and "blacker" noise floor on which to present music or video. To that extent the system will sound better, w/ greater low level detail and spatial realism, a worthy goal of a high resolution system; however, ideally these components should not add any sound of their own, and frankly claims that they do are suspect. In my opinion, the intensity of defensiveness that arises when one calls into question the "sound" of power cords amply suggests that this more a matter of faith than science by those making the claims.
Dave,
I have no objection to what you've written except to be puzzled by the last sentence. I can't speak for others, but my only problemhas been with those who call the use power cords "snake oil." Beyond that, there's plenty of room for debate and disagreement on this subject.
My objection is that people on both sides of this debate seek out "science" as a refuge of "proof" for their respective positions. For the record all my power cords are Shunyata. I think they're great quality, and they do what I expect them to do, but I can't tell you in the same sentence a) my system sounds better w/ them; b) you're an idiot if you don't believe me; and c) I have "scientific proof" supporting me. Conversely: a) my system is unaffected by the power cords; b) you're an idiot if you don't believe me: and c) I have "scientific proof" supporting me. It is extremely difficult to design a statistically sound, well controlled, double blind study to support either hypothesis when the major variables involve listener self reported perceptions. A double blinded study is just a means of reducing experimental bias in a study. It does not specify control conditions nor study power which must be designed both independently and additionally to "blinding". Depending upon the hypothesis to be tested it may take hundreds, even thousands, of subjects to yield a statistically significant result, particularly when human subjects and their self reported perceptions are involved. I find in most of these threads that the more emotional the discussion the less objective the discussants, and when "science" and the "scientific method" are invoked the discussion totally degenerates since both parties use "science" solely as a means of "up-manship" in the debate.
Again, I agree with nearly everything you've written. I don't, however, think it's a reflection of "shakey" beliefs when people whose professional work has been slandered choose to call upon science to refute fallacy. Can people say silly things during heated debates? Of course. To that extent, I stand guilty of "up-manship" when mean spirited attacks are launched. Once the " haters" exited the discussion here, the conversation has been civil and, undoubtedly will remain so. Btw, I use my ears, not science, when choosing what to buy. I enjoy reading scientific explanations of why I hear what I hear...but such research is not my hobby. Until, this thread got hijacked a while back, it was about the joys of listening....which is what I am going to get back to now.
Wait 'til you hear Shunyata's latest Python interconnects and speaker cables! But that's for another thread. ;-)
Just in case any of you folks forget about little old me . . . If you say you can "hear" interconnects, power cords, and speaker cables, then you are a) delusional; b) lying or c) delusional AND lying and probably a salesman for high end audio cables.
Misanthrope
Dude, if you actually listen enough you can hear big differences between lower priced cables, like Kimber Silver Streak vs. MIT, or the like. My friends who aren't audiophiles can pick out either one all day; in fact they remind me of that fact when they come by- without looking. One likes the cable with bigger bass, and the other likes the see-through quality in the other cable. Each person has a preference, unless they haven't taken the time to actually listen (the-sometimes-third listener doesn't care, and nor does he really listen- like you).
I have lent sets of cables to friends with no 'help' from me prior to them trying them out. They may disagree which is better, but they agree that they can hear a difference, at least. And yes they have picked out my old MIT T2 interconnects vs. my old T4's. Clearly the T2's have a more prominent bass range, as well as more obvious spatial cues vs. the T4's. I can pick out my T2 cables vs. the more expensive CVT series every time. It's the comparisons over time and from practice that remain the longest with us. AND, in fact, why would you even BOTHER to buy MIT's good stuff when you yourself state that all cables sound the same? What gives? Just buy their cheapest and be done. But you haven't. Who's lying? You are. NO one would spend thousands on cables, and claim they still don't hear a difference- they would ask for their money back.
Perhaps your experience is different. Perhaps you don't hear well? Nah, I think you are full of it on purpose. You pretty much keep coming back to just insult people or claim unethical behavior, like all misanthropes. Either way you should be banned for being a general douche. (See pic above).
-Glotz
Despite explicit warnings from our Editor, some participants in this forum thread have persisted in making comments that violate AVguide rules of conduct. Therefore, our only choice has been to block repeat offenders from further participation in AVguide forums.
Let's be clear: Our intent is not to stifle lively debate. Rather, our intent is to make sure that debate (and even outright conflicts) are handled with an appropriate level of civility.
Believe it or not, it is possible to express disagreement without resorting to name calling, character assassination or outright attacks.
EXAMPLE:
Suppose you think that power cables do not make audible differences. There's a right way and a wrong to express this idea in a forum thread that--more or less by definition--is attempting to discuss perceived differences thought to be associated with specific models of power cable.
RIGHT WAY:
Forum Thread Participants:
I have read and thought about your comments on the "sound" of power cables and find them confusing. Here's why. I have, along with several of my fellow audio enthusiasts, conducted informal listening trials to see what, if any, audible differences power cables might make. Our test system involved (briefly describe your test system, listening methodology, etc).
On the basis of our listening tests, our conclusion was that power cables (or at least the ones we sampled) made no audible differences that we could discern. Given the discrepancy between our findings and yours, I want to pose several questions:
A) Is it possible that the differences you describe are extremely small in magnitude versus larger scale differences such as those between speakers, source components, or electronics?
B) Is it possible that the differences you perceive are, at some level, influenced by a spoken or unspoken expectation that cabling changes "ought to" make differences that "should" be audible?
I'm eager to hear your candid responses.
WRONG WAY:
Man, you guys are a bunch of tone deaf, witless dimbulbs who probably believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Great Pumpkin, and other myths. Or maybe you are cold, calculating shills for the cable industry. Either way, your ears, hearts, and minds are evidently buried somewhere "where the sun don't shine." Face facts, you gullible boneheads: all right-thinking people know without having to be told that power cables have no "sound" of their own--never did and never will.
_________
Bottom Line: you can say or think whatever you want on AVguide--provided your tone is civil and respectful. Just follow the Golden Rule and things will be fine. Enough said.
Thank you, AV Forum!
Would like to hear some comment from folks who have the Black Mamba CX HC series power cord and how they have worked out for them.
I am just back from my dealer with one on loan, which I'll try out for a couple of weeks to see how it compares to my previous power cords. BTW, in honor of hairsonfire who I believe was banned from the site, here are my comparisons for power cord usage on an amp:
Nordost Vishnu - clean, clear, dynamic, but a little on the dry side. For me lacking some ambience and the bass is tight, but not full
Aural Symphonics Cappuccino - good all around power cord, not as dynamic as the Vishnu, but for me a better option every time over the Vishnu whether on amp or source. It leans a little to the warmer side of the spectrum, solid full bass, and highs that extended but not shouty.
Nordost Brahma - does everything the Vishnu does, but better and fuller bass and more relaxed highs. A very good AC cord, maybe the best I have used. This is upper end of my budget, but I picked up two demo cables at very low cost. I doubt these will ever leave my system
The Black Mamba CX - it has only been in the system for a couple of hours so too early to say definitely. With all AC cords I have found that a minimum of 2 full days of use is required before their true character is heard. Preferably more break-in than this. What I have heard so far assuming these qualities do not substantially change, is that it is much more open and detailed than the Vishnu or the Cappuccino without being bright. Ambience or overall "feel" is so far very promising. I am noticing a lot of air around instruments and vocals. It is not at this early stage as solid sounding as the Brahma and may not ever reach that stage, but here's for hoping as my price should I choose to keep the cord is dealer cost.
In honor of hairsonfire, I connected the original AC cord that comes with my NAD C275BEE amp. When I test, I always play the same half dozen "test" tracks and compare bass, mids, highs, air, dynamics etc. Putting the original AC cord back onto the amp was SCARY bad. The soundfield just collapses and the bass is muddled, the highs not so high, and midrange really suffers and the sound becomes bass/high emphasized, like the older stereo receivers we all listened to in the "good old days."
I for one am so happy I discovered the positive improvements quality cables make to a system. it is a minefield in terms of getting everything to gel and something that suits your listening tastes, but if you like music first and the gear second, then the gear can really improve your enjoyment of your music collection.
Would love to hear what other opinions are out there on the Black Mamba HC CX.
Paul
Paul,
I'm eager to hear your impressions after a few more days. My experience has been that all cords in the CX line require a minimum of 100 hours break-in. I've never compared them to Nordost in my system so I don't think I can offer any useful feedback about that. The Black Mamba is the definite "steal" in the CX line. The Python has more bass heft and a bigger soundstage and the Anaconda is all that and smoother, more open and a tad more refined in the upper register. However, I wouldn't argue with anyone who feels those incremental improvements may not be worth the added expenditure...it's a matter of personal priority. I think the Black Mamba is a tremendous value even though I've moved up the ladder.
Is this link still active?
I was a complete skeptic that cables, especially the power ones, could improve system sound - I was a skeptic until last night that is. My local hi-fi shop loaned me a Shuntaya black amba power cable and BIS interconnects, and I "auditioned" them last night in my stereo system. I really did not want to hear a difference - but I did hear a difference and it was not suble. The sound was somehow more open and detailed.
Now I need cables and don't have a good idea which to purchase. The Black Mamba is certainly on the list, but what else is out there that may be better? I don't rally like the look of the Black Mamba. I have about $1500-2000 to spend. My system consists of Sonus Faber Cremonas and Simaudio I7 and Supernova.
Any advice would be appreciated.
My advice is to audition a Shunyata power conditioner. It is far more effective than any single power cord. You will, of course, have to purchase a power cord with which to plug in the power conditioner and there really isn't anything out there that will touch the Black Mamba for the money. Sound has always trumped appearance for me, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
The Black Mamba power cords and Synergistic Research Powercell 4 power condiitoner ($1250) is a fantastic place to start...and possibly end as it will take you VERYclose to reference caliber set-ups. I am a power delivery junkie and have (seemingly) tried them all! The Hydra-2 is not as good...neither is the PS Audio Duet but IMHO it's the best conditioner under $1k. The Shunyata Talos and Triton along with the Powercell 10 mk2 are reference caliber units. Shunyata's powercords are the benchmark for neutrality but the Synergistic Holgram A and D are also superb. I use the Powercell 10 mk2/Hologram A&D in my 2-channel set-up and the Talos/Python&Anaconda in my HT set-up.
Interested to read, Paul, what you take away with that Nordost p/c vs. the Shunyata one. Nordost's usually shy the full tonal balance, Shunyata's, on the whole, more a tonal balance p/c, less the open end top octave at least, historically. Don't quit now.
Thanks for the advice! I will probably take the plunge tonight and buy Shunyata cables - probably the Black Mamba, but possibly the next one up the line. The power conditioner will have to wait for next time - unless....
I currently have my stereo connected to a Panamax surge protector. Is there any benefit to be had by replacing the surge protector with a power conditioner? Do power conditioners offer surge protection? Do surge protection devices have any negative impact on the sound?
When I auditioned the power cables I removed the surge protector from my system.
Well, I purchased the Black Mamba CX and CX HC about 1 month ago. I installed them and promptly forgot about them.
Over the last few nights my wife and I have been intently listening to our favorite music, and I must say that these cables have really changed the presentation. The soundstage now extends to either side of my speakers; we hear more detail; somehow the upper registers are more coherent if that makes sense, or maybe smoother is more accurate.
My wife has better hearing than I and she found the improvements startling.
Where I was once a complete skeptic that cables could significantly change or improve the sound - especially power cables, now I'm convinced. My wife even more so. We just purchased a Tissot watch for her, forgoing a much more expensive TAG. After a couple hours of listening last night, she is pleased that we purchased the less expensive watch as we now have money left over to upgrade our interconnects or speaker cables.
I am one luck man.
So now my question is: which cables next? My interconnects between my CD to integrated amp which are balanced, or my speaker cables? I might have $500-1000 to spend.
I like the science behind the Shuntaya cables - is there a similar approach to the other cables, or is it just trial and error?
I am a huge fan of Shunyata's power cables because they improve the sound without adding their own colorations...not a common accomplishment. In my experience, Audioquest accomplishes the same feat with their signal cables.
The PS Audio Duet offers surge protection and significantly lowers the noise floor without sucking the life out of the music. I'm not familiar with Panamax but surge protectors typically degrade sound quality, by alot. You've got good gear. The PS Audio Duet is quite good...its price belies its performance. If you audition one, note that they need to break-in...the sound really opens up after 50-100 hours.
Shunyata's new signal cables (interconnects and speaker cables) are even better than their power cables IMHO, and I have Anaconda CX cables throughout as well ad the new Triton.
The new interconnects are groundbreaking and beat Shunyata's previous $7,000 ic's. The Black Mamba signal cables would be a great place to start. I own the new Pythons and they are stunning.
I have a used Python "Alpha" 20-amp along with a Hydra 2. They're an incredible duo, the biggest difference was a jet-black background on which the music emerged from.