Anyone try these new cables? Any reviews out there? your thoughts or experience with them would be appreciated. Thanks.
I have the Pythons, Sam. I find that Shunyata has removed that upper midrange softness that permeated the earlier version of their VX power cords (in contrast to the "Alpha" cords, which were meant for amps, and preamps.
And perhaps it's the changes in my system, but I find the midbass not quite as powerful as it was in earlier versions, which may account for the lessening of darkness in the sound. Tonality, however, Shunyata has always been the antithesis of Nordost, which, in earlier versions, were very "yang" cables. I haven't heard the Odins (and probably won't until I reach Valhalla myself!!!)
They otherwise resemble other iterations of Shunyata: very fast transients (even in the bass), very airy, extremely 3D and quite well focused and musical, according to the source CD or turntable. Oh, and of course, an extremely low noise floor, Shunyata's specialite.
I assume the Black Mamba replaces the Viper, which I have. The Viper was pretty inflexible, so it was best if one had a line conditioner on the floor, rather than plug it into the underside of say, an Audience Ar2P Teflon version, which caused the Audience not to be flush into the socket since the Viper tended to pull at one angle or another.
I heard Synergistic Research's $2400 power cord at the same time (borrowed it), and wasn't able to easily ascribe any superiority to the SR vis-a-vis the $700 Viper, but I'm sure those with more highly resolving systems would have a more authoritative conclusion than mine. Still, I would've hoped to have heard some obviously superior traits with the SR. Just didn't happen.
My impressions only.
so the balck mamba could be just a variation of the Viper in a different looking/more flexible case/covering? If it is its upgrade.
"I find that Shunyata has removed that upper midrange softness that permeated the earlier version of their VX power cords" LOL how f***ing ridiculous to state you can hear a power cord. Hey, they look cool as hell but that's about it. Everytime I see posts like this all I can think of is "The Emperors' New Clothes" LOL. Hey! That dude is naked! LOL
If you can't hear a difference, consider yourself lucky. Me? I made the mistake of auditioning the Anaconda CXs when I already had Pythons CXs...big difference (ouch$)! BTW, you do know that numerous prominent recording studios use Shunyata power cords. So it's not really so f***ing ridiculous.
That's your opinion. My opinion is that you (and many others) are deluding yourselves. I take my system set up and component selection very seriously and I have all of the higher end MIT interconnects and speaker cables but I would never state they "sound" better than anything else. I mean come on now - most people can't even tell the difference between various high end and el cheapo amplifiers.
When you use profanity and call people "deluded" and "naked" and use lol in your posts you prove how secure you are in your ideas. You also prove how measured and logical your thinking is. Your post is aggressive and dispresectful of others' opinions. It's a free country and your are free to expose to the world what kind of person you are. The more you write, the clearer it is.
That said, Shunyata has recently released measurement data proving that there is a measurable performance difference between ANY stock cord and ANY after-market power cord....not just their powercords, but any modified powercord. It doesn't matter whether you can hear the difference or not. It is there. TAS and Stereophile will be publishing on these measurements soon and this ridiculous debate over "beliefs" about powercords will be exposed for the religious argument that it is. I have no interest in talking about what people believe. I'm only interested in what I and others hear. I and many, many of my friends hear the difference. Now we can talk about the science behind it. Virtually every respected audio manufacturer agrees that powercords make a difference in sound, even those who do not manufacture powercords. Any audiophile with an open mind can hear the difference between a stock power cord and a decently designed aftermarket cord. Whether you value that difference is a matter of personal taste and does not warrant extensive discussion.
Yes, I am sure that you and your friends believe that you can hear a difference. Can't prove it though can you? Sort of like God . . . or Allah, or Vishnu . . . Millions of believers and not one single element of verifiable empirical data. Where is this data that Shunyata has recently released and how does is corealte to reliably measurable perceptive quantities? My post may appear agressive but is directly proportionate in response to the manner in which you so blandly and blithely state how a power cord "sounds." Lighten up dude. I applaud Shunyata and other manufacturers marketing hutzpah. I am sure they are enjoying their profits.
Lighten up,huh? Would that involve setting my.....hairsonfire? Lol. No one's called you names, as you have..so i'd say it's you who needs to lighten up. That said, if you want to argue empirically, read the performance measurements posted on the shunyata website (I doubt you ever will) and feel free to use this forum to demonstrate how well you can actually sustain an empirical argument. They've provided the empirical evidence you say doesn't exist. If it's bullshit, point out how...or are you chicken? As my Grandpappy always said, "put up or shut up."
Well, I went to the Shunyata website . . . Oooh, founded by a former National Security Agency representative - very impressive. I see no evidence of "empirical data" just the usual snake-oil, smoke and mirrors techno babble. Just like Monster had in 1985 . . . "Oxygen Free Pure Copper bla bla bla" etc. I am not the one who is trying to sustatin an empirical argument - you are. I say no one can "hear" differences in power cables, you say they can. How about those good old double blind listening tests? Oh yes, that's right. No one has ever proven that anyone can consistently or reliabley hear any difference between ANY kind of cables - power or otherwise. Google it bro.
Hairsonfire, you are one slippery dude. YOU used the word empirical first. I didn't. I hear the difference. I've done double blind tests. So there. I'm sure that will calm you down.
I'm not afraid to test my "beliefs." Are you? You have not responded in anyway to the empirical evidence except to resort to what you have from the beginning of this thread; name calling. Liar, LIar, pants on fire. Feel better, now? Unless you can refute with specificity any of the performance measurements and tests that have indeed been conducted, and unless you have actually listened to the cables that are the subject of this forum, you have no standing in the conversation.
There's new evidence yet you won't refute any of it specifically or even listen with your own ears to Shunyata's newest powercords in the double blind test you hold so holy. (Why because it's you that have no evidence for your beliefs) Your arguments are tiresome and extremely old. Please go kick someone else's tree fort or start your own forum.
Is it your belief, then, that the recording professionals and professional musicians (see Shunyata's and Analysis Plus' websites) that spend thousand$ on power cords/conditioners and cables are all deluded? If you can't hear a difference, relax...we're not spending your money. My wife can't hear a difference between my 1980 JBL speakers and my current Dynaudio Confidence C1s. That doesn't mean the Dynaudios are a rip off, which is what my wife would say if I asked (I haven't).
I got lucky. My wife can actually hear the difference during an a/b test of a mofi recording and a standard one. She can also hear the difference between MP3 and CD. She doesn't care about the differences much, but she can identify them. The same is true with power cords. She can't tell the difference between one high end cord and another but she can pick a stock cord every time. I don't know why hairsonfire won't recognize that as some form of evidence that at least some people *can* hear the differences between power cords.
BS - total and complete BS.
Yes. That pretty well sums up your point of view.
Vhiner - I heard you the first time. Unlike differences in power cords, which no one, you included, ever hears - LOL . . . that was good!
I guess the word "hear" has a different meaning on your home planet. :-)
You may want to call Skywalker Sound and Sony Music Studios and inform them they are deluding themselves by using power products that make no difference.
Has anyone noticed how hairsonfire and people with his "world view" never talk about the scientific a/b tests they themselves have conducted?
They never address this point because they have not, in fact performed such a specific test. This forum is about shunyata's current line of power cords..something about which hairsonfire has no direct knowledge...or he would've made reference to listening to equipment connected to shunyata's current line of power cords. They also never address specifically empirical performance tests because they cannot refute what they do not understand. If they were to address shunyata's specific claims it would expose their woeful ignorance of the science behind the technology. Instead, they mock it as "snake oil" or " marketing mumbo jumbo." It is neither. I dare anyone to refute shunyata's latest measurement data of all kinds of power cords as pseudo science. Bring the qualified scientists forward. If these measurements are bogus, then so are a host of electronic measurements used by audio engineers all over the world.
Maybe when you move up from a kenwood rack system you'll hear the difference, oh, I forgot they have captive power cords, maybe you should try using dolby c noise reduction when you listen to your def leppard tapes or get a life. Holler back when your done waxing your trans-am.
When you joined our site, I believe you agreed to abide by AVguide's Community Guidelines, which you seem to have forgotten. Here are a few reminders:
1. GOLDEN RULE. "Treat people how you'd like to be treated... Be polite and respectful. Discussions are encouraged; hating is prohibited."
2. DON'T FORGET THE GOLDEN RULE. "Don't hate, don't threaten, don't call people names, don't be angry and don't drown yourself in a sludgy cynical pool of death sludge."
3. DON"T BE OFFENSIVE. "...This isn't church but keep your language clean. Respect other users ... don't pick fights or make accusations in the forums or comments."
4. BE ENCOURAGING, DON'T BE INSULTING. "When people know less than you do, be helpful and supportive. When you think you know, but you don't really have first hand experience, be cautious of the limits of your knowledge. Be respectful of surprising points of view. Draw a clear distinction between accepted wisdom and what you actually know first hand."
My point: You need to keep your end of discussions civil in tone, bearing in mind that we're all (presumably) participating in this game with an eye toward seeking out enjoyment, enlightenment, lively (but never ugly) discussions and debate, and just plain having fun.
Best, Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Chris ur post was great. I'm not supporting Hairsonfire. But some of the cord Buisness has gone out of contol. I mean $30000 for interconnects, $6000 for power cords... How much technology is in there and what is the cost to make these? The best cords are as costly as some serious medical condition. I mean it's not like it's an HIV cocktail costing millions to do research on? I don't know. I think cords do make a difference but up to a certain extent. If u keep throwing money at something that's not equal to technology. The magazines and manufactures should also self reflect and think about it. Every year the cost of audio gear keeps going up $1k to $2k or more for the same product. Does inflation work this fast? I just don't get it.
Thank you for the post. It's something we ALL need to keep in mind. The next time I see comments that violate your rules I will contact you as opposed to allowing myself to get sucked into the "sludge." I hope action will be taken if those who are politely informed about the ground rules insist on playing dirty. I really appreciate your attention to the matter and for making the forum possible.
Please read hairsonfire's post today, April 17, 2011. It clearly violates the rules you spell out here. Can you do something about this?
According to Grant at Shunyata, the Black Mamba was brought to market because they were getting alot of complaints about the stiffness of the Sidewinders and Vipers. Grant also stated that the Black Mambas were a significant improvement over the Sidewinders/Vipers and very nearly the equal of the Python. I know from my experience that there was a sizable performance gap between the Viper and Python.
I find it interesting that in light of the journey that one's electricity takes: Miles of high-tension lines, switching yard after switching yard, transformer after transformer, not to mention the hundreds of feet that the mains current takes traveling through one's walls to one's outlet, than anybody could seriously consider that the cable which takes the AC mains the last couple of feet from the wall outlet to one's component could possibly make the SLIGHTEST difference in the quality of the AC being supplied!!???
Have any of you performed a double-blind test against a regular IEC cord to ascertain whether or not you're getting what you are paying for? Without a DBT, we are all highly subject to sighted and expectational bias, you know.
Hi Mr. Graves,
I received an e-mail with your question. Following is some information that may help with understanding component interactions with AC.
If you assume that AV electronics sit passively at the end of a miles-long AC pathway, then the power cord, outlet or distributor represent only simple connections where reasonable conductivity gets AC from A--B. The truth however is different from a simple throughput diagram where AC pours into components as if from miles and miles of AC hose.
Component power-supplies have a more dynamic and complex relationship with AC than you might imagine. Electronic power supplies don't pull current in a linear fashion like a light bulb, fan or simple motor would. The full-wave bridge rectifiers and digital switching supplies in electronics draw _hard_ on the AC line, pulling instantaneous bursts of current off the highest and lowest peaks of the sine-wave. This happens within milliseconds in order to fill power supply storage capacitors.
Both full wave bridge rectifiers and digital switching supplies create a significant amount of noise during this process that extends in frequency to the 50th harmonic of the line frequency. What this means, is that from the perspective of a power-supply, AC transmission is a near-field, high-frequency occurrence not a distant low frequency 50-60Hz even. A/V components are far more sensitive to their own proximal connections and noise emissions than they are to noise or junctions "miles away". Electronics in recording or AV systems represent the front or initial point of an electrical interface, not an end point. From that perspective, the power cord is an extension of the primary winding of the power supply, not the last six feet of wire.
This translates into a few simple truths. Most relevant here is the fact that component power-supplies, due to the dynamics of the way they draw impulse current, are extremely sensitive to near-field electrical impedance--ie: anything in line that adds resistance to current delivery. The nearest open contact junctions ( IEC, Male AC and outlet) can be sources of significant measurable impedance --that can and will effect visual and sonic performance. The fact that the power cord is the first open contact the power supply "sees" and can act as an antenna for radiated noise means that their contact integrity and isolation from HF noise can be of importance to the power-supply. There are other factors I could get into but that is a foundational one. There is more info in our technical info on our web.
There is more than these simple precepts of course but I hope this is of some help.
Thank you for this explanation.
How much of these "problems" get taken care of by the power cords vs. the power conditioner? Thx
I would not use the term "problems". I was only commenting on some of the base realities involved with electrical delivery to AV components. The scope of your question is broad given the range of products that exist on the market, each with a different POV. I would be happy to answer any specific questions offline.
Grant can you comment in detail about the Black Mamba CX and HCX...other than the cool photos and the Ads? you thoughts and findings, what improvements have been made from the viper and what is similar to the reference stuff? Does it really come close to the Python in listening tests as JLeeMD mentions? Can the HCX or CX used throughout or interchange between components rather than one HCX for amplifiers and CX for the digital? Also music direct is selling 4 different types. a 4 feet cable, a 6 feet cable, 15Amp and 20Amp wires..... does it degrade the sound with longer cable? how do we determine if we need the 15Amp or 20Amp wire? whats the different between the Amp difference. Do I need to contact the individual manufacturors of my components to figure out what wire will work? I Dont want to fry the equipment. Im sure you guys tested these cables out pretty good....if you could answer my questions it would be of great help.
We prefer not to use forum space for answering anything other than general technical questions that are closely related to, or directed toward us.
Even then, I miss many of these because of travel and a full schedule.
I would be happy to answer all your product questions if you care to contact us directly via phone or e-mail. Our contact info is listed on our web.
I had spoken to Grant about the perceived lack of bass, which he emphatically stated should not be the case. So, I looked for other reasons that the system might be sounding that way. It took a while, but I found the (inadvertent) culprits: two of them! One was the Walker Audio Resonance devices, which, put in the wrong place on the speaker, seem to have a rather unpleasant effect on the 3-D of images. I'd had to move the whole system around in January due to repairs (floods in CT) and the like. When I put the system back, it seems a bit 2-D and nothing worked, not the tube changes in the preamp, amp, NOTHING.
I finally, in desperation, started moving, one by one, the Walker devices and found that they were in different locations than the pencil outline I'd put on top of the speaker (yup, just pencilled the position in on top of the Hales. No biggie: easily removed). They were not in the same spot because I was trying to see if some other spot was better. Should have left well enough alone. As Roy Gregory pointed out in a Finite Elemente review (from years ago), if you put these types of devices in the wrong place, you might hate them! I put them, edging them 1/16" at a time, towards the outlined positions on the tops of the speakers. When they "arrived" the sound had transformed to 3-D again. I'd use an expletive for those past 6 months when I was dismayed at the sound of the system: clear but a bit like an accordion folded up to it's smallest position. Now, the accordion is completely open to its full position again. And then I had to re-orient the tube traps.
I"ve tried numerous power cords and Shunyatas editorialize the least...by far.
I'd like to second JLeeMD's comments about the Shunyata CX line. Additionally, as to whether the Black Mamba is as "good" as the Python CX, it depends upon what system is being used. The Black Mamba *is* an amazing value but the Python produces bass and mid-range detail that is very addictive. The price difference will probably be the deciding factor for most.
I've been through several iterations of these cables and NONE has changed the sonic balance of characteristics I love about my system. However, they *do* clarify the strengths of my components. The resulting perception is that the system has been "enhanced." The recent addition of an Anaconda CX to my Hydra conditioner has been so dramatic that friends visiting are shocked to learn that nothing else has been changed in the system. Bass is so clear and musical and instruments are so 3D that it's as though I upgraded speakers. In actuality, my amp, preamp, digital front-end and speakers were always capable of producing these effects. The difference is that now they have the access to the quality of voltage necessary to produce these sounds. I recently added a lowly Shunyata Diamondback to my parents' HDTV and my 75-year-old mother commented on the difference in picture quality even though she had no idea what had been done. To the skeptic: There are numerous bricks and mortar as well as on-line dealers who will let you live with the cords for a couple of weeks at no charge. If you can give them up, you don't need them. If you've never heard them, what does theory matter? Remember that there are many who doubt that one cd player is any different than another and they have very "sound" and "logical" reasons for their opinions. Everyone "knows" that zero's and one's are all the same. Anyone who's ever heard a budget dvd player next to an old Oppo (price doesn't always mean a thing) knows how absurd that view is. The key is to listen before passing judgment. When it comes to sound, it's what we "hear" not what we "think."
I also recently upgraded the Python CX that feeds the power conditioner with an Anaconda CX and agree with vhiner that the improvement is not subtle...I'm still amazed that a $2000 power cord can sound noticeably better than a $1200 one. Oh, and when that $1200 one replaced a Kimber Palladian ($1200), the improvement was dramatic.
Most annoyed me most about my Anaconda CX is that it can't be twisted along its axis. It can be bent easily but not twisted.
many times the male plug make 180 degree angle to the wall outlet and rotating the wall outlet orientation is more possible.
Anyone have experience with King Cobra vs Anaconda.....................someone stop me please!
I was a follower of Shunyata products for many years. I owned the original Python, King Cobra V2, Anaconda Alpha and the newest Anaconda CX.
However, I discover recently that Lessloss powercords offer a better performance/price ratio.
The Lessloss Signature powercord is amazing & is on par with my Anaconda CX. Worth your consideration!
The reviews on the Lessloss Signature are impressive but limited. Can you elaborate on the similarities / differences between the Signature and the Anaconda CX?
Shunyata has been famous for its wide bandwith & quietness. The Anaconda CX has further improvement in these 2 areas but the most important change is the improved dynamics.
However, the Lessloss Signature is still better than Anaconda CX in this aspect. It's more 'organic' & powerful and always make me tapping my feet while listening. On the other hand, the uppermost frequency seems more rounded & less airy than the Anaconda CX.
I am sure getting one Lessloss Signature and then mix & match with your different components will give an optimal effect.
There are probably only a few people on this planet that could say what you just said. Thank you!
JLeeMD..........ok....please stop this lol.... if you keep going you will drain out your 401K and your kids education funds.... then theyll have to get their MD with a debt that will drag to the grave. Save the money for your retirement and your kids...or you all will be left with thick power cords with no financial value left in them over the years.... lol Does that help?
Kid's education funds...didn't think about that. Thanks Sam!
I've had Shunyata so long, I don't even remember pre-shunyata. Oh....except between 2003-2007 when I had both Shunyata and Nordosts! Now, THAT was interesting.
I cannot tell you how flattered I am that hairs-on-fire-brain's-dead used My quotes to set off this debate. I bin dissed by Da Man!!!!!
Fortunately, it IS easy to hear the lack of softness that characterized Shunyata's earlier cords -- but only if you happen to have them lying around.
I re-purchased a King Cobra in 2009, well after I bought some Python and Viper CX cords, just for the hell of it. Just listening to strings, one could easily hear the lack of differentiation in a violin section. The King Cobra (and the other cords of that era, the Python and Black Mamba (2003 versions)) had a slightly smeared quality with a lack of focus and softening of bowing movements that ANYone (even haresonfire) could hear.
In fact, I still have a Taipan Alpha Helix cord, which I put in the other day just to hear the difference between it and the Lessloss Original power cord I bought recently. The Lessloss is more open, but the focus (as in, specificity) of instruments was less obvious with the Lessloss than with the Taipan. On the other hand, the Lessloss is quite a bit more transparent than the Taipan, which is, after all, a 2007 iteration. Still, the Shunyata, plugged in to either an Audience AR 2p-Teflon conditioner, or the Quantum (Nordost imported, by the way) outlet, was fuller, richer, darker (meaning the upper midrange/lower treble was less 'sparkling' in the best sense of the word) and perhaps more dynamic.
I would agree with Haresonfire that 'hearing' a powercord can be hard, and frankly, if you have to strain to hear the difference in ANY component you bought, you need to a) learn to hear better b), learn HOW to listen better or c), RETURN IT. Not everything I've ever bought was clearly an improvement in my system and it bothered me to have spent money on something I "thought" I could hear. That was then, when I did not, as Wilma Cozart Fine apparently said, "trust my ears." That was a long, long, long time ago. My ears work fine. So do the Shunyata CX series power cords. And I will NOT listen to a King Cobra: I can't afford to!!
I cannot help but laugh at the thought of king cobra cord. I mean it's out of this world, it even looks out of this world. Power cords taken to the extreme. A real cobra wouldn't cost as much as this interesting cord. Lol
What could be more unaware than taking the flat-earth approach?! I respect people who have TRIED an experiment, not ones who dismiss it. One might as well say all amplifiers sound alike. Try reading Shunyata's paper on this (and be sure you understand what you're reading) before telling everyone who can hear well (including TAS' illustrious staff, which, I assume, you have some respect for, otherwise, why even come to this site?) that what they hear is due to their imagination.
ANYone can hear when the upper midrange is missing with very little effort by changing the interconnects, speaker cable, speakers, yet you rail against the idea that the power cord -- made by the same people who made the speaker cable and interconnects -- would take a systems approach and thin out a certain frequency as a way of shaping a component's sound. How young can you be that you don't know that this is how designers have designed components for the past 70 or 80 years?!?!
As I said, I had several generations of Shunyata's cords to do my tests: therefore, the conclusion was empirically arrived at. Yours is merely scoffing with no data to back it up, much the way people who once believed the Earth was flat did. Credibility is an important aspect of character. I don't see that in your posts in the slightest. Just nyah, nyah, you're all dumb. The chip-on-the-shoulder aspect is shining through clearly. Good luck with that.
The problem is that unless you tried "the experiment" double-blind, your results are scientifically worthless and you are no closer to the truth than you were before you tried your experiment. THAT is absolute. Physics says that AC cables can not affect sound, double-blind tests show that nobody can tell the difference between two other wise identical components, one with an expensive high-end AC cable and one with the IEC cable it came with. All in all, the jury is in.
By the by. I have read Shunyata's paper and it's pure techno-gibberish! It has no engineering merit whatsoever. It's one of those "If you accept the premise, then the conclusion SEEMS reasonable." type of circular reasoning arguments. I have a PHD in electrical engineering and I spent three years in the wire and cable laboratory of a major aerospace company. I know things about conductors that most people, even otherwise knowledgeable ones, couldn't even guess at, and NONE of that applies at audio frequencies!