Shindo Audio
RGO -- Thu, 09/25/2008 - 15:18
I wonder if anyone on this site has heard these tubed electronics? I have read incredible reviews from various sources and I would like to hear some opinions. I wonder if a review of these products will be forthcoming. Thanks
I haven't heard them or even seen them at a show.
I guess Robert Harley's eyesight or memory is not as good as his hearing! I was actually in the room at CES a few years ago when you very purposefully bypassed the Shindo room.
Joe
They are excellent. The Jules Coleman review in 6moons, Art Dudley in Stereophile and the doogoo reveiws are the most accurate reviews I have ever read of a product I have owned.
Imported to the US by Tone Imports:
http://www.toneimports.com/shindo/shindoamplifiers.html#...
They have single-ended and push-pull versions, though even the push-pull amps are limited to 40 wpc.
I have an all-Shindo system (Giscours preamp, Cortese amp, Shindo/Garrard 301, and Latour speakers). I have owned many very high quality audio products, inlcuding Kondo, but sold them once I heard Shindo.
Shindo is not about the tightest bass, or the most liquid midrange, or stratospheric highs, or any of the other audiophile criteria. Rather, Shindo gear disntiguishes itself by virtue of its ability to communicate the essence of the music. I am not sure how it does this but suspect that it is has to do with correctly reproducing harmonics and the timing of the music.
In addition to Jules Coleman, Art Dudley has, IMO, identified and beautifully described the Shindo magic.
Sincerely,
Larry Borden
Stereo Times
Hi Larry,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts re: Shindo. Just wondering if you wouldn't mind comparing the relative merits of the Shindo gear versus the Kondo.
Much appreciated!
Er, sorry, didn't realise I hadn't logged in. So, the above post was from me. Cheers!
niner:
Summarizing the sound of these two excellent products is not easy. In a nutshell, Kondo is (to my ears) characterized by a light, airy, ethereal sound; in contrast, Shindo gear provides a more complete, organic and holistic sound.
But even if I had the superb writing skills of JV, to understand Shindo gear you would still need to hear it for yourself. There are dealers in NYC (In Living Stereo), the San Francisco Bay area (Pitch Perfect Audio), and Cleveland (Don Better Audio). Please contact them, or the Shindo importer (Tone Imports).
Regards,
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Hi Larry,
I've read so much about Shindo in the last couple of years since Jules Coleman began writing about them. I respect Jules' writing immensely and that of Art Dudley, so it's been interesting to note their enthusiasm for Ken's products.
I've recently become acquainted with the Living Voice range of speakers and have been incredibly impressed. I hope to hear the Living Voice's with some Kondo gear in the not too distant future. From what I've read, I can't imagine anyone regretting ownership of either product, but as to which would most closely match my own preferences would surely only be a matter of listening for myself.
Cheers to you.
Kondo-San's products are extraordinary. That said, I prefer those from Ken Shindo.
Regards,
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Larry:
I hope you write about the Shindo Latour loudspeaker- it looks very special. As high-end's first field-coil loudspeaker, it's also trend setting. Others are following, most notably the Classic speaker - in part designed by Bruce Edgar. There are other compression-driver based horns out there, as noted in my list (found in the loudspeaker section of AV forum), but the Latour looks best of all..........
"As high-end's first field-coil loudspeaker, it's also trend setting."
I wouldn't go that far. Field coils have been around for a long time. A current post on AA discusses that. The Latours are excellent speakers, early to reintroduce the technology in modern times but hardly original. That said, it's a great technology, the benefits of which that anyone who heard the CARs at RMAF could confirm.
"Others are following, most notably the Classic speaker - in part designed by Bruce Edgar."
Not to unduly take anything away from Bruce Edgar, but it's not quite true that he designed the speakers despite claims. John Wolff of Classic Audio Reproductions, who is pretty soft-spoken, might humbly tell you differently. Bruce worked on the wood horns, which were finished by others.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ (773) 809-HIFI
I will indeed do a write-up of the Latours.
Regarding field coils, I'd like to mention that while the best drivers in the world are (probably, and IMO) field coils, it is a common misconception that if a driver is a field coil, it is necessarily good. An otherwise crappy driver will not be magically transformed by replacing the permanent magnet with a field coil; moreover, not all field coil motors are the same, just as not all permanent magnet motors are the same. Last but not least, to make a successful speaker, the field coil driver must be in a appropriate cabinet, with an appropriate x-over, and paired with appropriate other drivers.
As with most everything in audio, the creation of a top-notch speaker using field coil drivers, requires expertise in both art and science.
Regards,
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
It's just that there aren't too many field coils !! I count two or three. How many do you count ?
I'm curious to hear from anyone thats compared Shindo's SET Amps to Lamm's ML2.1 SET.
Looking at the specs, the Shindo appears to be much lower powered then even the Lamms, so probably require much more sensitive speakers. But I'd really like to hear what people have heard both intimately have to say.
TIA.
While I cannot provide a comparison, I can add my two cents. First, IMO these are both amongst the best amplifers available; if I didn't own Shindo, it is likely that I would own a Lamm ML-2. Second, I would urge against using published measurements as a gauge of how these amps sound; the only way to determine that is to hear them.
Best wishes to all for a healthy, heappy and prosperous New year.
Larry Borden
Stereo Times
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Thanks Larry... Good input. As it turns out, the Shindo's easier for me to home audition than the Lamm. So if anything, the lower wattage on the Shindo should be interesting to explore with my -94dB sensitive speaker ;)
I was directed to this discussion by a friend who saw it. I normally stay off forums -- especially Audio Asylum (aptly named) -- which favor biting commentary over the provision of useful information. I read the thread and everyone seems genuine and well disposed. So I am keen to put my two cents in and not just because people have been complimentary of my writing :-) As to Robert Harley's comment, in fact Shindo has appeared at CES as accompanying electronics -- a couple of times -- to John DeVore loudspeakers. The Shindo 301 analog system has also been used by DeVore. That said, the North American importer is reluctant to participate at CES for a number of reasons and my guess is that one is unlikely to hear Shindo at CES in the near future. For one thing, Shindo electronics are designed in the first instance to be part of a full Shindo system -- from analog front end to field coil loudspeaker with all stops in between including ICs and speaker cables. Shindo Labs has been around since 1977 but until the early 2000s, they have had little visibility in the US. There is of course the parochial sense that the SE world began in the US in the mid 90's with Dennis Had's 805amps, but this is a ludicrous view and displays little knowledge of the real history. The Japanese picked up on old Siemen and WE products and took to manufacturing their own in the 70s; Jean Hiraga brought the products to France in the 80s and partnered with Keith Aschenbrenner and others and if anyone is responsible for the SE resurgence in the U.S. it is Arthur Loesch mentor to many of the designers associated with the Fi group in NYC-- among whom include several very talented folks: Kamuro and JC Morrison, among others.
That out of the way, Shindo products work perfectly well when mated to other products; they just shine (and this is more than 'synergy' -- it is a matter of design) in complete Shindo systems. You have to understand the amps as follows. Shindo's amps, even the push/pull amps, are designed to work with high sensitivity easy load loudspeakers. So take the Sinhonia which at one time i owned. It is push pull F2a amp that puts out 40 watts. Shindo's design goal was not to produce an amp that put out 40 watts to work with speakers needing that much. Rather, Shindo wanted to design an amp to let you know what the F2a amp in push pull configuration sounds like. It just so happens that such an amp puts out 40 watts. The single ended version, the Cortese, puts out 8. It is not the power difference, but the sonic difference, he is interested in displaying. He also believes that any tube in teh right circuit, etc. can be made to sound right and desirable and as proof he once designed an amp built around the 6550 tube as a single ended configuration. Proof, I imagine, that even arguably the worst sounding power tube can be used to good effect in the right circuit, etc.
You need to hear Shindo in the right context just as with any other product. I have heard full Shindo systems (other than my own) in SF and Cleveland, both quite remarkable. The best I have heard is at Pitch Perfect in SF. He uses the full field coil Latour speaker that Larry Borden also owns. My own system includes the 301 analog front end, the Catherine preamp, the 300B Ltd monoblock with NOS Western Electric 300B tubes (which is how the unit comes stock) and a unique field coil loudspeaker that Shindo makes as a kind of homage to the WE 753. If Shindo decides to put the speaker into production I will surely do a review of it. It is much smaller than the Latour but shares the same characteristic performance attributes.
One last thing. Shindo of course is not for everyone. Nothing is. The key to his sensibility is the view, that I happen to share, and which I know is shared by others, that the last great period of innovation in audio was in the early years dominated by Western Electric and Siemens among others. The great drivers were field coils. Many of the ideas created then were never fully realized as field coils were replaced for example by magnets -- not because magnets sound better, but because they are easier to use, easier to keep working, etc. at the time. Recall that the power supplies necessary for a field coil then compared to what would be necessary now. So field coils died, not because they did not sound as good as magnet drivers -- as anyone who has heard both knows (field coils have much lower distortion and have an ease of presentation that is addictive (the opposite of many modern metallic tweeters, for example)). What Shindo is trying to do is to create the products -- especially the electronics -- that would have been produced had audio run a direct path from its early days till now trying to realize fully the ideas that were introduced by the original great designers and innovators. His aim is not to use their designs, but to realize the underlying ideas in his own. And as anyone who knows about design, his designs are invariably among the most innovative and creative around.
If you are enamored however of an audiophile sound that favors the leading edge over the harmonic structure of notes and their natural decay into space (not into the infinite blackness of digital), you are unlikely to be moved by the Shindo sound. There are many fine products in audio produced by creative craftspersons. I am a believer of looking for a voicing that speaks to you, that allows you to be immersed in the experience, and which permits you to engage with the musically significant features of a performance (as opposed to the full range of microphone artifacts on which too many audiophiles are too often fixated). For some this will be Shindo, for others it could be the combination of Audio Research and Wilson. Who knows. There are better and worse in audio as in everything else -- or nearly everything else I imagine. But what matters more than better and worse evaluations are those that focus on whether it works for you, moves you, touches or reaches you. An ear, like anything else can be improved; and there is no embarrassment in moving on and no longer liking what one did before. If this comes from one's own developing sensibility that is great. if it comes from the authoritative pronouncements of others, it is not sustainable, and more likely the source of further disappointments (and even greater expenses to no good).
I hope you don't mind that I resist comparing Shindo with Kondo or Lamm or whatever. In different contexts all of these products can excel. I am happy to answer questions off-line if anyone is interested and time permits. My email is Jules [dot] Coleman [at] Yale [dot] edu
was directed to this discussion by a friend who saw it. I normally stay off forums -- especially Audio Asylum (aptly named) -- which favor biting commentary over the provision of useful information. I read the thread and everyone seems genuine and well disposed. So I am keen to put my two cents in and not just because people have been complimentary of my writing :-) As to Robert Harley's comment, in fact Shindo has appeared at CES as accompanying electronics -- a couple of times -- to John DeVore loudspeakers. The Shindo 301 analog system has also been used by DeVore. That said, the North American importer is reluctant to participate at CES for a number of reasons and my guess is that one is unlikely to hear Shindo at CES in the near future. For one thing, Shindo electronics are designed in the first instance to be part of a full Shindo system -- from analog front end to field coil loudspeaker with all stops in between including ICs and speaker cables. Shindo Labs has been around since 1977 but until the early 2000s, they have had little visibility in the US. There is of course the parochial sense that the SE world began in the US in the mid 90's with Dennis Had's 805amps, but this is a ludicrous view and displays little knowledge of the real history. The Japanese picked up on old Siemen and WE products and took to manufacturing their own in the 70s; Jean Hiraga brought the products to France in the 80s and partnered with Keith Aschenbrenner and others and if anyone is responsible for the SE resurgence in the U.S. it is Arthur Loesch mentor to many of the designers associated with the Fi group in NYC-- among whom include several very talented folks: Kamuro and JC Morrison, among others.
That out of the way, Shindo products work perfectly well when mated to other products; they just shine (and this is more than 'synergy' -- it is a matter of design) in complete Shindo systems. You have to understand the amps as follows. Shindo's amps, even the push/pull amps, are designed to work with high sensitivity easy load loudspeakers. So take the Sinhonia which at one time i owned. It is push pull F2a amp that puts out 40 watts. Shindo's design goal was not to produce an amp that put out 40 watts to work with speakers needing that much. Rather, Shindo wanted to design an amp to let you know what the F2a amp in push pull configuration sounds like. It just so happens that such an amp puts out 40 watts. The single ended version, the Cortese, puts out 8. It is not the power difference, but the sonic difference, he is interested in displaying. He also believes that any tube in teh right circuit, etc. can be made to sound right and desirable and as proof he once designed an amp built around the 6550 tube as a single ended configuration. Proof, I imagine, that even arguably the worst sounding power tube can be used to good effect in the right circuit, etc.
You need to hear Shindo in the right context just as with any other product. I have heard full Shindo systems (other than my own) in SF and Cleveland, both quite remarkable. The best I have heard is at Pitch Perfect in SF. He uses the full field coil Latour speaker that Larry Borden also owns. My own system includes the 301 analog front end, the Catherine preamp, the 300B Ltd monoblock with NOS Western Electric 300B tubes (which is how the unit comes stock) and a unique field coil loudspeaker that Shindo makes as a kind of homage to the WE 753. If Shindo decides to put the speaker into production I will surely do a review of it. It is much smaller than the Latour but shares the same characteristic performance attributes.
One last thing. Shindo of course is not for everyone. Nothing is. The key to his sensibility is the view, that I happen to share, and which I know is shared by others, that the last great period of innovation in audio was in the early years dominated by Western Electric and Siemens among others. The great drivers were field coils. Many of the ideas created then were never fully realized as field coils were replaced for example by magnets -- not because magnets sound better, but because they are easier to use, easier to keep working, etc. at the time. Recall that the power supplies necessary for a field coil then compared to what would be necessary now. So field coils died, not because they did not sound as good as magnet drivers -- as anyone who has heard both knows (field coils have much lower distortion and have an ease of presentation that is addictive (the opposite of many modern metallic tweeters, for example)). What Shindo is trying to do is to create the products -- especially the electronics -- that would have been produced had audio run a direct path from its early days till now trying to realize fully the ideas that were introduced by the original great designers and innovators. His aim is not to use their designs, but to realize the underlying ideas in his own. And as anyone who knows about design, his designs are invariably among the most innovative and creative around.
If you are enamored however of an audiophile sound that favors the leading edge over the harmonic structure of notes and their natural decay into space (not into the infinite blackness of digital), you are unlikely to be moved by the Shindo sound. There are many fine products in audio produced by creative craftspersons. I am a believer of looking for a voicing that speaks to you, that allows you to be immersed in the experience, and which permits you to engage with the musically significant features of a performance (as opposed to the full range of microphone artifacts on which too many audiophiles are too often fixated). For some this will be Shindo, for others it could be the combination of Audio Research and Wilson. Who knows. There are better and worse in audio as in everything else -- or nearly everything else I imagine. But what matters more than better and worse evaluations are those that focus on whether it works for you, moves you, touches or reaches you. An ear, like anything else can be improved; and there is no embarrassment in moving on and no longer liking what one did before. If this comes from one's own developing sensibility that is great. if it comes from the authoritative pronouncements of others, it is not sustainable, and more likely the source of further disappointments (and even greater expenses to no good).
I hope you don't mind that I resist comparing Shindo with Kondo or Lamm or whatever. In different contexts all of these products can excel. I am happy to answer questions off-line if anyone is interested and time permits. My email is Jules [dot] Coleman [at] Yale [dot] edu
Thank you, Jules....
It's great to see you on this discussion board - they're not *all* bad. Your review of Shindo separates and more recently, Aspara (horns) has given us a unique view into the audio playback arena. These components offer a (non) hi-fi approach to music, which is the right call...in this day and age of superb source signals. They need - and deserve - a holistic approach towards reproduction, not chasing after individual parameters.
I hope you review the field-coil Latour loudspeaker next. You would be an ideal candidate, after reviewing the non-field-coil Asparas.
Thanks again !!
Some excellent posts in this thread. One question for those who own or have heard the Shindo Amps... What would you say is the biggest sonic difference between Shindo's SET amps and their Push-Pull?
I had the opportunity to hear and own part of the brand name that being mention here
i had a lot of great time at "in living stereo" shop at NY
for me , the Komuro SET is by far greater musical maker then great Shindo or Kondo
Albert,
I'd be curious to learn which Komoru amp you heard there. In Living Stereo had a push pull 845 amplifier when I visited them many years ago, not a SET. It didn't sound right to me, it had a lot of glare but was very powerful sounding. It was okay but the sound was too big and bold without enough nuance or finesse. It was very hi-fi and impressive but not delicate like the Shindo SET they had. It was like listening to a master (Shindo amp) with confidence and delicacy versus an amateur (Komuro amp) that was trying to show off. They also had Art Audio and a Fi 2A3 mono amp was brought in by another customer. The Fi was totally overrated to my ears, this amp was not interesting at all although it was relatively cheap by comparison to the Komoru which was around $25,000 and the Shindo which was around $9000 if I remember correctly. The Art Audio was too colored and bumpy in its frequency response but more musical than the Fi which was very black and white.
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