Request for upgrade advice

RichTeer -- Mon, 09/01/2008 - 19:34

Hi all,

Although I love listening to music through my system, I find the sound somewhat wanting. I'd describe my system's shortcomings as a lack of low end bass, lack of airiness or sparkle in the treble, and a feeling that some details are lacking (rather like looking through a pane of glass with a film of gunge over it). Left/Right soundstaging is OK (but could be better), but most of my sound stage is very much 2D. I listen mostly to rock/pop (which would probably explain a lot of the sound stage issues!), but also enjoy light classical and (more recently) some jazz.

So I'm looking to upgrade my system; the question is where would be the best place to start? Here's my current system:

Front end: Forsell Air Reference turntable with a Lyra Parnassus MC cartridge (the original, not the DCt version). Both were purchased new (by me) around 14 years ago.

Preamp: Audio Research SP Mk 2. Bought used a couple of years ago, service history unknown.

Power amps: A pair of PrimaLuna Prologue 7 monoblocks. Bought new last Xmas.

Speakers: A pair of bi-wired Spendor SP1 Mk 2s. Bought new about 12 years ago.

Cables: 1.5m Nordost Frey between the Forsell and the SP9 (bought new about a year ago). 2m of self-made interconnects using insulated silver cable and gold plated phono plugs. About 6m per side of QED Qudos 4-core speaker cable. I can't remember how much the interconnect I made or the QEDs cost, but they weren't (about 12 years ago) expensive. A rough guess would be a couple of hundred bucks each. New cables would be a 6m interconnect between the SP9 and ProLogue 7s, with short (1m or 2m at most) speaker cables.

Accessories: Stands by Target and SolidSteel, Furman Elite 15-PFI power conditioner.

Long term, I see myself with a new set of ARC amplification (Phono 7/Ref 3/Ref 210), new speakers (e.g., Martin Logan CLXs or Wilson Audio System 8, or...), and a new front end with upgraded cables all round. But where to start?

Part of me wants to replace my speaker cables and homemade interconnects with Nordost Frey. This would bring them up to the standard of my turntable to preamp connection, and would make clearer the diffferences/improvements other upgrades would bring. I can also make a case for upgrading the speakers--or maybe my preamp needs servicing/retubing (or even replacing). Perhaps my cartridge is reaching the end of its life?

I'll eventually attend to all of the above, but would really appreciate some guidance from you guys! Budget depends on what option I decide to go with, but it's around $5K. I like to do bigger upgrades, but can only afford to do one or (at most) two per year.

I look forward to reading your replies, and thanks in advance for any advice.

Tom Martin -- Thu, 09/04/2008 - 17:36

My first thought would be to find a dealer who will let you try a modern preamp that is known to be operating correctly. With a test drive of that, you can either determine that the SP9 is fine (though perhaps worth upgrading later) or is a source of significant problems due to age etc. Pretty easy step (depending on where you live).

The other obvious point of attack is the speakers. Personally, I think speaker design has progressed dramatically in the last 10 years. It is harder to test drive speakers at home, but I'd look there. Within your budget there are very impressive products available.

Finally, do you use CD at all? I ask only because that is a possible easy check on whether the cartridge is operating properly (again, age could be a factor in the elastomeric components).

CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC

RichTeer -- Fri, 09/05/2008 - 11:17

Thanks for your reply--I was beginning to think that no-one had noticed my plea for help! :-)

Re the SP9. Great idea. I have a dealer not too far away (the next town), in fact I'm planning to go there tomorrow. The plan was to audition cables, but hauling the SP9 up there won't be too much trouble. I contacted Audio Research, and they suggested that I replace the electrolytic caps (looks like there are two in the power supply) and re-tube it. The cost wasn't too bad (around $250), so I might just give that a shot. But yes, it is an old unit and should be up for replacement (eventually). Longer term, I'm thinking ARC Ref 3 + Phono 7.

We obviously think alike because the speakers are where a lot of my suspicion lies! I'm very much interested in auditioning Martin Logan's wares. When I was at the dealer a few months ago, they had the ML Vistas on display. I liked what I heard after just a quick listen, but didn't take it any further (the Vistas have since been sold...). I'm wary of doing too many speaker evals, though, because of my fairly crappy cables. One solution to that would be to replace them with something recognisable that's OK--for example, Nordost Red Dawn. That would be a much cheaper option that replacing them with Nordost Frey (as is my current plan)!

I'm eagerly awaiting Jon's Quad 2909 and ML CLX reviews to see what the next step could be (I might be able to stretch the budget that far if I save enough).

As for CDs: I do have a CD player (an old Pioneer one), but it only gets used rarely. Good call on the cartridge check (something else I'd thought of). Just last night I was comparing the CD and 45RPM version of Vince Guarali's Charlie Brown Xmas. The CD sounded very flat (2D), the LP better.

Again, many thanks for taking the time to answer; does anyone else have any suggestions?

Tom Martin -- Fri, 09/05/2008 - 12:09

I can second your idea of buying some good-but-not-great cables to get to a stable system that can be diagnosed. I've used Nordost Blue Heaven for this purpose and I've been very happy. The other advantage of this approach is that you can dial everything else in and then pick the expensive cables as a last step, based on subtleties.

Robert Harley -- Tue, 09/09/2008 - 16:54

I agree completely with tmartin on where you should start. Today's loudspeakers are significantly improved over those of 12 years ago. I would start with the speakers, and then look at trying a different preamplifier. I suspect, however, that 90% of the improvement you're looking for would come from new speakers.

RichTeer -- Tue, 09/09/2008 - 20:05

Thanks for the tips, guys. Looks like a new pair of speakers will be my next big upgrade.

I contacted ARC, and they suggested that I send my SP9 in to replace the electrolytic caps in the power supply and have it re-tubed. Total cost will be about $250, so I'll probably do that very soon. That should tide me over until I can replace it...

Cables are a bit more complicated. I took my interconnects and speaker cables to my local dealer and confirmed my worst suspicions: they're crap (the interconnect being the worst of the two) and really ought to be replaced before I do anything else.

The question is: with what shall I replace them? I'm borrowing a 1m length of Frey interconnect and love the effect, but the cost for a 6m length is very high in the context of the rest of my system! Part of what gives me pause is what should I do with the (say) Blue Heavens when I eventually upgrade to Frey or better? (I guess I could always try to sell them, but 6m interconnects aren't in great demand, it seems...) I guess I'm trying to balance my desire for an upgrade with the desire to not waste cash long term. That, and I'm mildly concerned about the RFI an unshielded 6m interconnect might pick up.

I think I'll ask the dealer for their best price for a set of Blue Heavens and Red Dawns (I already have a quote for the Frey), and mull it over some more. I guess the less I spend on cables now, the more I can spend on speakers. And that can't be a bad thing! :-)

Edit: I guess I should also consider the Baldur; being a shielded cable, it should be immune to RFI...

Tom Martin -- Tue, 09/09/2008 - 21:08

Why 6M interconnects?

RichTeer -- Tue, 09/09/2008 - 21:55

tmartin wrote:Why 6M interconnects?

Fair question!

Room layout dictates either2m interconnects with ~6m speaker cables (what I current have), or 6m interconnects and 2m speaker cables; I'd much prefer the latter. I have my turntable and preamp stands down the left side of the room, with the speakers at one end. Between the amp stands and the corner is a record rack (another is in the opposite corner for symmetry).

My room will do dual duty as a home theatre (although audio is the higher priority), so there will eventually be a TV at the speaker end of the room. If it wasn't for that, yes, I guess I could use a shorter interconnect and put my gear between the speakers and use shorter interconnects. A necessary compromise, alas... :-/

Tom Martin -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 08:42

I had a similar set up. I recently moved the preamp in between the speakers. I like the sound better with shorter interconnects (certainly longer ones are not better, and they are definitely more expensive).

I don't know your arrangement exactly, but why not put the TV on a small cabinet which also houses the preamp?

I also finally decided to run slightly longer cables from the phono preamp to the preamp. I wanted the phono physically farther from the speakers. My decision came when I realized that the phono output was at about the level of CD, which is about preamp level or higher. In other words, I felt that running the lowest level signal (the preamp out) the farthest made little sense. Now, I use phono 25% as much as CD, which was also a factor in locating the phono setup farthest.

A final word: not all shielding is created equal. I would be sure to try any shielded or unshielded cable with your system first. I have had the experience of unshielded Nordost working fine when shielded cable didn't. RFI etc is difficult to generalize about, so that doesn't mean unshielded cable will work for you. Related to this, does your dealer have any used cable that you could buy for dialing-in purposes and then trade back at a very small loss?

Don't know if any of that is applicable, but just in case.

RichTeer -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 12:02

tmartin wrote:I had a similar set up. I recently moved the preamp in between the speakers. I like the sound better with shorter interconnects (certainly longer ones are not better, and they are definitely more expensive).

I use phono for 95%-99% of my music listening, so it has the highest priority in my system (my turntable is furthest from my speakers for exactly the same reasons yours is).

If I move my preamp nearer my speakers as you suggest, I'd merely change the problem from needing a long pre to power interconnect to needing a long turntable (or phonostage when I get one) to preamp interconnect. To give you a better idea of my room layout, here's an ASCII art rendition, roughly to scale (each line or character represents about 1 foot). Yes, I'm a computer geek! :-)

<-------16'------>

^ +----------------+ ^
| |R TVTVT R| |
| |R TVTVT R| |
| |R R| |
| |R S S R| |
| |MM | |
| |MM | |
| |MM FFF| |
| |MM FFF| |
19' | FFF| 15'
| |PP FFF| |
| |PP FFF| |
| | FFF| |
| |TT | |
| |TT | |
| | | |
| | ---+ V
| | FFFFFF
| | FFFFFF Stairs going up
| | FFFFFF
V +------+ -------------- ...
^ |
| <-6'-->|
| | Key:
| | TT: Turntable on its own rack
| | PP: Preamp, power conditioner, and CD player
| | on a shared rack
| | MM: Pair of monoblocks, each on their own stand
14' | R: Record racks
| | S: Speakers
| | TV: TV stand (will eventually hold other AV stuff)
| | F: Futon
| |
| |
| | Ceiling is 7'8"
| |
V +-------------------- ...

As you can see, there's not a lot of scope for moving stuff around. My plan is to move the monoblocks to between the speakers, and maybe move the speakers forward into the room a bit more.

Quote:
A final word: not all shielding is created equal. I would be sure to try any shielded or unshielded cable with your system first. I have had the experience of unshielded Nordost working fine when shielded cable didn't. RFI etc is difficult to generalize about, so that doesn't mean unshielded cable will work for you. Related to this, does your dealer have any used cable that you could buy for dialing-in purposes and then trade back at a very small loss?

They probably do (they're quite a small dealer, 'cause I don't live near a big city); I'll have to check. Many thanks again for your thoughts. It's much appreciated and it always helps to bounce ideas off of someone!

Jonathan Valin -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 17:29

Quote:Hi all,

Rich,

I would've replied sooner, but I missed this post. (We've been very busy at TAS, preparing our special issue while simultaneously preparing our December issue!) Here are my recommendations for upgrade:

Analog front end: This depends on your pocketbook, Rich. At the top of the heap would be the Walker Black Diamond record player with Clearaudio Goldfinger v2 or Air Tight PC-1 Supreme cartridges. This is an expensive setup, as I'm sure you already know, but worth it, IMO.

For less money, I can also recommend the TW Acustic Raven AC-3 with either a Graham Phantom or a Dynavector or, if you're feeling flush after saving $20k by not buying the Walker, a Da Vinci Grandeeza tonearm. I also recommend the Clearaudio Goldfinger v2 and Air Tight PC-1 Supreme cartridges with these tonearms, and the Koetsu Onyx Platinum, as well. With both of these arm/table/cartridge combos I highly recommend the Audio Research PH7 phonostage preamp. ARC will be offering a new, much more expensive phonostage at the end of this year or the beginning of next, but the PH7 is so good (and such a good deal) that I still recommend it. I'm not saying the new phonostage won't outdo it; I am saying that this is the best phonostage I've heard and the best ARC has yet made.

All of your other equipment choices will depend on which speakers you decide to get. Here's what I recommend (and with each come different amplification and preamplification options).

In cones, I recommend Magico Mini IIs, Magico V3s, Rockport Hyperions, and potentially, as I have not yet heard them yet but have good reason to believe they will be superb, Magico M5s. Also highly recommendable (from my own experience): Wilson Audio Sophia IIs, Kharma Mini Exquisites and Kharma Exquisite Reference 1-Es, Avalon Indras, and Revel Salon IIs. (I haven't heard enough of the latest Wilson Audio WATT/Pups to comment one way or another, and am eagerly awaiting a listen to Focal Grand Utopias) To drive any and all of these cone speakers I recommend: Audio Research Reference 3 linestage and Audio Research Reference 610T monoblock power amplifiers--simply the best preamp and amp I've heard. Period.

In electrostats, I recommend Quad ESL-2905s, Sound Lab M-1PXes and, if you've got the dough by all means, Sound Lab A-1PXes. (I haven't heard the MartinLogan CLXes yet, but chances are they will join the short list). To drive the Quad 2905s, I recommend the Air Tight ATM-3 monoblock amps (a match made in audio heaven) and either the Air Tight ATC-2 or MBL 6010D or ARC Reference 3 linestage preamps. To drive the Sound Labs, I prefer solid-state (because they are such a tricky load). I've had great luck with top-of-the-line Krell, although I'm sure that top-of-the-line MBL, or (if you're looking to save money) top-of-the-line Bryston or Parasound (which I've heard sound very damn good with Sound Lab stats and which Sound Lab itself has perennially shown with) would also do the job. Just bring plenty of power to the party.

Planars: Magnepan 1.6QRs, Magnepan 3.6s, Magnepan 20.1s, and, above all else, Symposium Acoustics Panoramas. Maggies famously combine well with Audio Research electronics and I know for a certainty that the Symposium Acoustics Panoramas--one of the four best loudspeakers I've ever heard in my home--go great with the ARC Ref 3/610T. However, several Maggie users prefer top-of-the-line VTL amps and preamps and Maggie itself almost always shows with solid-state Bryston equipment. Go figure.

Omnis: MBL 101 E MkIIs or, if you're really feeling flush and by all means, MBL 101 X-Tremes. Since MBLs are designed to be used with MBL electronics, I naturally recommend you drive these speakers with the superb MBL 6010D preamplifier and equally superb MBL 9011 monoblock amplifiers. However, I have heard the Audio Research Reference 3 sound wonderful with both speakers and MBL 9011 amps. I will soon be trying out the Audio Research 610T amps and the Ref 3 preamp with the 101 X-Tremes. I'll report on my findings, since this combo would be a considerable savings over MBL's own very expensive gear, although that gear is hard to beat with these speakers.

For the record, the four best speakers I've heard in my home, without consideration of price, are (in chronological order): Rockport Hyperions, Magico Mini IIs, Symposium Acoustics Panoramas, and MBL 101 E/101 X-Tremes. With price taken into consideration, the four best speakers I've heard in my home are (in chronological order): MartinLogan CLS Is, Magnepan 1.6QRs, Sound Lab M-1s, and Quad ESL-2905s.

Although you, like me, are an analog guy, for a digital source I also highly recommend the dCS Scarlatti or (for a lot less money) the dCS Puccini SACD/CD players and for just plain ol' CD, the ARC Reference CD7 is hard to beat.

Jon

Tom Martin -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 17:42

JV -- you left out the part about how to shoehorn this stuff into a $5k budget! That would be very cool, but I'm guessing unlikely for the time being? Technology does progress, though, so one day...

Jonathan Valin -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 17:51

Oops!

I missed the $5k part! As Emily Litela used to say, "Never mind!"

RichTeer -- Wed, 09/10/2008 - 19:51

Hi Jon,

Many thanks for your detailed reply. As tmartin (Tom?) mentioned, my budget for this round of upgradeitis is in the $5k range. Longer term, I do indeed aspire to some of the items you mention (so the budget will be much more generous!), but I want to start the process now and that dictates a smaller budget.

In the very short term, I intend to have my SP9 serviced by ARC and replace my interconnects and speaker cables, most likely with something that's good but not great. It's from this step that the ~$5k budget comes. From the advice I've received here--and my own gut feeling--my speakers will most likely be the next upgrade. I'd been eyeing up the ML Summit until the CLX was announced. At $25K, it's about as far as a I could probably go cost-wise. I'm also very interested in the Quad 2905, and when I know how many shekels I have to play with I'll evaluate the options more seriously. The Maggie 20.1 is also a fave, but I think they're just a bit too big for my room...

Fortunately for my wallet, CD playback isn't a priority for me. :-)

Thanks again for taking the time to reply!