Relative Value of North American, European and Asian Speakers
Cam -- Sun, 09/19/2010 - 14:56
I'm in the process of purchasing a new pair of speakers and am considering speakers from multiple countries, including Usher Dancer 8571 (made in Taiwan), Wilson Sophia 2 or 3 (USA), Revel Ultima Studio 2 (USA), Canton Reference 3.2 (Germany) and ProAc Response D38 (UK). In looking at the Canton speakers in particular, I noticed that their price point is significantly lower in Europe than in North America. The MSRP on Canton's German website is 8,000 euros, the equivalent of about $10,500 U.S. However, the MRSP quoted for the U.S. is $16,000, about 50% more than the German MRSP!! This has got me thinking...
For the North American consumer, are U.S. and Canadian products better value (dollar per dollar) than European products due to the fact that we're asked to pay so much more for European products than our fellow European consumers? Why does the same not to hold true for Asian products (e.g. Usher), which seem to offer products that offer products of equal performance to North American products at lower prices?
Any ideas?
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Cam,
Country of manufacture, price (within your budget), and "relative" value will do nothing for you If one day you find yourself sitting in your listening chair, less-than-thrilled or wishing you could change or improve your speakers. In my opinion you would be better off considering speakers for purchase based solely on auditions, and how they sound to you.
Greg
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Greg
Cam, I'm a life time student of the automobile industry and a lover of music. Manufacturers can't justify charging 50% more for speakers in NA than they do in Europe. Before anyone tries to convince otherwise consider this, when car pricing gets out of wack on ether side of the Canada/US border people cross border shop. The same is true in Europe where there is a healthy gray market for cars. The bottom line? For the $6000 difference in price between Germany and the US you can fly to Europe, spend a week driving around in a nice car and come home with a pair of speakers and some money in your pocket.
Andrew
Good point Gregory - it really should be all about how speakers sound to me. I'm finding it's pretty tough, though, to make a final decision when I've narrowed it down to a few choices. Creating the short short list was the easy part. The tough part is rationalizing that final decision when you love the sound from each speaker on the short short list (even though there may be slight differences in voicing between them). That's when I find my self starting to look to other elements of the equasion, like quality and value.
You're completely right that my question about value may be focusing on the wrong thing if the end goal is listening enjoyment. I just can't help but wonder about it when there is such a price discrepancy between the same product in different countries. I would hope that the MSRP of a product would reflect the spend on R&D and quality of parts and manufacturing, in short reflecting the quality of the product overall. To your point, whether or not I like the end result is another question entirely.
I find myself wanting to be able to avoid the situation down where I question whether or not I made the right choice...and sometimes that question has very to do with more than whether or not I enjoy the sound. You know how this hobby goes - just like life, we always feel there's always something a little better out there. It would be nice to be able to reinforce my love of the sound of the product with the knowledge that it provides great quality for the price I paid.
< "I find myself wanting to be able to avoid the situation down where I question whether or not I made the right choice...and sometimes that question has very to do with more than whether or not I enjoy the sound. You know how this hobby goes - just like life, we always feel there's always something a little better out there. It would be nice to be able to reinforce my love of the sound of the product with the knowledge that it provides great quality for the price I paid." >
You make good points, Cam, and I relate to the concern about one's choice having "to do with more than whether or not I enjoy the sound." You're right -- we do tend to think there are always greener pastures out there -- it's a permanent part of the human condition. My involvement in music and the audiophile's pursuit of gratifying musical experience has held me in thrall for, oh, let's say more than 50 of my 65 years. I've enjoyed reading your posts and (sorry!) your dilemmas, and in a spirit of solidarity I'd like to offer a few more thoughts.
Beginning with the building of Heathkit amps and tuners and the construction of speaker enclosures, to where I'm "at" now (see below), I've learned that once I had the speaker choice narrowed to the short-short list the worst decisions were made when I didn't spend enough time auditioning the goods. And yes, the best decisions -- i.e., long-lasting happiness with the speakers in my home -- were made when I forced myself to delay gratification and make several trips to my dealer's store to audition the short-short list several times -- with my own CDs, and with my favorite salesman's CDs -- and with different electronics up stream.
"My" local high-end retailer and "my" salesman provide wonderful service, and, knowing what I'm trying to accomplish, my guy would call me every week or two to let me know they had a pair of speakers set up in a certain room with certain electronics, so I could drop in and spend a couple hours listening. And so back to your important point, that when the differences on the short-short list seem to be vanishing and you find yourself beginning to think about quality and value, I think you'll find this extensive auditioning effort -- aww hell, it was a lot of fun -- to be the main contributing factor in the resulting satisfaction with your choice. To my enormous delight, I find I'm now listening to music more often, and for longer periods of time -- AND! -- instead of thinking about greener pastures and quality and value and whether or not I made the right choice, I'm hugely enjoying the confirmation -- every time I listen -- that I made the right choice.
We are always in harm's way of spending serious money on this equipment, and you're right -- you don't want to find yourself questioning your choice after you've paid your money, set up the system at home, sat back in your chair and pushed Play. Perhaps you can try to narrow it down to two speaker systems. Audtion 'em several times with your music and your dealer's music, and, if possible, with different upstream electronics.
Regarding quality, I propose that most, if not all the gear offered by a reputable dealer will be of top quality. So that might be one distraction you could set aside. Regarding value, I believe, basis my own experience, that if you are thoroughly thrilled with your new gear, you won't worry about value either.
And In the thoroughly-thrilled department -- and at the risk of making your short-short list longer -- I chose and purchased a pair of the new Magnepan 1.7s. During the many auditions leading to the decision I found myself banging my head against an imaginary mental wall -- these
things CAN'T be this good because they don't cost enough money. But now, sitting in the glory of the fabulous musical experience the 1.7s provide, I laugh in amazement at how lucky I am -- not to be looking over my shoulder, not to be thinking about greener pastures. As a matter of fact, I'm planning this evening's play list as I write this and I'm eager to get out of the office, grab a nice bottle of red on the way home, settle in to my favorite chair and enjoy it all -- the choice, and the music.
Best wishes, Cam. Trust your ears. You'll do the right thing.
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Greg
Oh, and one more thing !
Cam, you wrote that you are "considering speakers from multiple countries, including Usher Dancer 8571 (made in Taiwan), Wilson Sophia 2 or 3 (USA), Revel Ultima Studio 2 (USA), Canton Reference 3.2 (Germany) and ProAc Response D38 (UK)."And you equate the hobby to life in general, so let me offer one more strategy, a refinement of the "audition 'em several times" idea.
I have found that in the hobby, just like life, it is often the juxtaposition of dissimilar elements -- both theories and their physical manifestations -- that yields insight, understanding, and new ideas (or in this case, answers). As I look at your short list (above) I notice something -- no 'stats or planars.
We know that electrostatic speakers and ribbons and magnetic planars (and, in the case of the new Maggie 1.7s, a kind of hybrid ribbon-planar) offer different sets of benefits and compromises. Based on experience with examples of all the above technologies I urge you to hear something entirely different than the speakers on your current list. Quads, Martin-Logans, Sound-Labs, Magnepans -- I can't begin to convey how much the listening experience with these speakers will reveal things about the other fine speakers on your list. Listening to 'stats and planar-ribbons may reveal -- in no uncertain terms! -- which of your current candidates you prefer, and why. Caveat emptor, however. Listening to, say, Martin Logans and / or Magnepans may change the whole game, and you'll be playing a few innings of overtime!
Mix it up! Expose yourself to the disorders of discovery! I'll wager the juxtaposition of dramatically dissimilar speakers will provide the listening experience that will get you to the promised land.
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Greg
Gregory,
Thanks so much for your insightful comments! Very good advice indeed, and good of you to note my ommision of electrostatic and planar speakers. I'm going to change my mindset around and enjoy a few "extra innings" of auditions with the speakers on my short list plus maybe some Quads, Martin-Logans, Sound Labs and/or Magnepans as you suggested.
Cheers!
Cam
Working with a manufacturer I come across this statement all of the time. Basically you're paying for the R&D (hopefully), the build, the packaging, the shipping, the customs, the export duty, the import duty, freight, in some cases rep costs, and finally dealer costs... It's a lot more than a simple exchange rate. I agree with Gregory, demo what you think you may like, and find the model that you think is worth its asking price.
Be excellent to each other.
A couple of thoughts on this issue. If you are asking individuals for their opinions on the speakers, you will get many different opinions. Even writers for this great magazine all have different magazines. From an economic perspective, you can get an answer to your question if you get sales volumes for each speaker in each country. If your samples are big enough, you should be able to determine what people in aggregate are valuing. However, from my experiences, audio is very secritive and run by small mom and pop shops, so these numbers are impossible to get. And even if you do, will you LOVE the speaker just because it is the best value?
I would suggest creating your own model to determine what you value. A simple example would be based on buying a smaller house by the ocean vs. a larger house farther away (vs. something in between). How much is each worth to you?
So I agree with the suggestions above that you should hear as many different speakers as possible. Make a list of what characteristics are important to you. Then assign a $$$ value to that aspect. Write down everything that each speaker does that you like or don't like in a grid. Adjust the $$$ accordingly based on what you like to help you get at the speaker with the most value to you.
Enjoy