Recommended minimum cable lengths?
RichTeer -- Tue, 08/26/2008 - 11:59
Hi all,
Most people seem to agree that as a rule of thumb it is better to have a long interconnect and short speaker cable (as opposed to short interconnect and long speaker cables), and that generally it is better to use shorter cables. But are there any recommended minimum lengths of interconnect and speaker cables? Is it OK, for example, to use a 1 metre (3') speaker cable, as opposed to the more usual 8'?
It strikes me that with a pair of monoblocks, one can use very short lengths of speaker cable, but I saw some speculation on another forum that going below 8' with speaker cables isn't a good idea. I hold the opinions expressed here in higher esteem than the other fora I frequent, but wondered if there's anything to this advice (my guy says "no").
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I disagree with the rule of thumb. Interconnects are more susceptible to noise, so making them longer increases the total amount of noise induced in them.
There are other trade-offs that make it difficult to give general advice. One that is often overlooked is the need to dress the cables properly. Cables and power cords should be arranged so they do not put stress on the components. Cables conduct acoustic vibrations, and if they are fitted tightly, they will circumvent the vibration isolation properties of the component suspension.
Cables and power cords should also be kept off the floor and away from solid objects as much as is practical. Not only do solid objects introduce vibration, they have poor dielectric properties compared to the cable insulator materials.
Finally, the cables should be dressed to prevent long runs in parallel and in close proximity. This reduces the cross-coupling of electrical noise.
Proper dressing of the cables will usually dictate the lengths required. These will be longer than the minimum lengths between connection points in many cases.
Speaker vibrations should be kept away from monoblock power amps. This may require longer speaker cables than the placement geometry would seem to require.
I like the idea of short speaker cables, mono block close to speaker. The Rockports are very inert and the MX-R sit about a foot away using ayre 0.5M speaker cable (a version of Cardas). But in between the speakers is a Salamader cabinet and I shudder every time I look at the mess of AC cords/mostly Cardas...interconnects...all balanced...is there any "right" way of dressing this rat's nest in a fashion that looks nice...doesn't hurt the sound...perhaps even helping. Any thoughts??
Be careful not to dress the crowded cords and cables too neatly. Bundling them together and securing them with tie-wraps may look better, but increases the coupling among them.
I try to keep a little space between ICs and power cords. If they have to cross at some point, I'll put a little cotton between them.
Just following up to my own question. I spoke to the fine guys at Nordost a few days ago, and they recommended using at least 2m for speaker cables, and nothing less than 1m for interconnects.
The advice may not apply to other brands of cable, but at least it's one data point!
RichTeer wrote:Just following up to my own question. I spoke to the fine guys at Nordost a few days ago, and they recommended using at least 2m for speaker cables, and nothing less than 1m for interconnects.
The advice may not apply to other brands of cable, but at least it's one data point!
I heard the same thing from one Nordost dealer and he said something similar. Another Nordost dealer said there is no such thing. I subsequently wrote to Nordost to clarify that specific question and the fine folks there didn't deem it necessary to answer :p
Their price list does list shorter speaker cables (I think it starts at 1m) and shorter interconnects (0.6 starter ?). I am at a loss to figure whether one specific dealer was trying to push more cable Understanble in view of the margins), or whether Nordost is compromising on quality by flogging shorter than optimal cable lengths for the clients which have issues buying meters of very expensive speaker cable :twisted:
Perhaps Elliot, who I believe might be a Nordost dealer, can clarify this ?
Guys, If you have ever seen the Nordost demo at any show with the amazing Lars you have heard him speak about how they like a longer lenght of cable which is around 4 meters. ( sorry I forgot the exact number) He does a demo with Odin at 1m, then 2m then 4 m and it gets better each time, They do not say anything about short cables being bad just longer up to 4 meter being better. Having said this remember it is quality first then length!!!!
I wish that the oposite was true becasue that Odin, Valhalla etc gets real expensive but I have heard the demo many times and my ears don't lie!!!
I've always believed that the shorter the cable or interconnect, the better. I once had monoblocks on the floor right behind the speakers, connected with 10" speaker cables.
I haven't heard the Nordost demo, but the results you mention are counter-intuitive.
Hi Robert, happy new year! I've read article about Puccini cd/sacd pl. and u-clock. Can You tell me please, what dig. cable and lengths did you used?Thanks. And many thanks for Your magazine, it's great!
I understand what you are saying but it is true and the demo with Lars is amazing and I know you will be stunned when you experience it. I dont think it is ccounter if you think about wave lengths and resonaces. They are not the same in shorter cables and longer cables. If you tap a pipe in a one foot length it would be different that an 8 foot length for example.
I suggest you go see them at CES.
I am not that technical to understand the resonace issues that they explained but I sat through the demo at least 8 times and brought back friends from different manufacturers to listen and they like me could not believe what they heard.
Check it out, and BTW a few other cables manufacturers reccomend lengths of cables that are not the shortest, if I am not speaking out of line MIT is one, they don't sell or suggest speaker wires under 8 feet, at least they never used to when i was a dealer of theres.
Robert the demo they did was with interconnects 1m, 2m and 4 meter, everything else was constant, LArs said theat the length of ( it was not exactly 4m but close) 4m was the ideal length for their cables both interconnect ands speaker wire.
Contact them directly and get exact details,
E
Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio ran some interesting simulations:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/
(Click on "Audio FAQ")
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
OY VEY!
I would rather go for root canal!!!!
I said it was interesting, not that I agreed with it. ;)
For what it's worth, I have settled on short interconects and long speaker wires but that should be taken with a grain of salt (or as my physics teacher used to say, a grain of malt), as I dislike 99% of the gear that is raved about on this forum.
Such is life, such is audiophilia.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Elliot Goldman wrote: 4m was the ideal length for their cables both interconnect ands speaker wire.
... and their bank balance ! I can't even start to think how much 4 meter Odins would go for!!
I know Zeb! I have Odins in my place but not 4m interconnects times 2.
I heard what I heard and I told them that it was amazing however it is a lot to ask someone to buy when the price difference is so much.
FYI 4m speaker wire -38000. vs 1m 20000
4m bal interconnects 28000. vs 1m 16000
Speakercables are extensions of the amps powercircuit and should be dimensioned with that in mind. If you`ve got a cosy little triode handling some supersensitive horns you don`t need to worry too much, but if you`re into big transistor power banging into big multiway boxes you shure need some real powerways. Ever seen inside some big amps powerways how it`s built?
Speakercables should be as short as possible and capable of handling your amps power with no audible loss, or in other words to keep resistance at a minimum. That means quite a bit bigger than almost any cable-pusher tells you. A lot bigger, and not stranded.
You are correct - if you use very short runs of speaker cable the effect of
them is significantly diminished - it is why some manufacturers insist on
minimum or preferred lengths.
Cables can be considered as an unavoidable "defective" part of the system,
needed to connect its parts, and their effect should be minimized or they
may become a positive part of our system and enhance it.
Many years ago I have tried using monoblocks and ESL63 with minimum (less
than one feet) cables and (unhappily :-( ) always preferred the long cables.
With all due respect, cable manufacturers have a vested interest in longer cables! I consider ANY "information" from them suspect just as I consider any financial "advice" from a securities salesman suspect.
I agree fully (by both theory and experience) with Mr. Robert Harley - the least cable is the best cable. I further contend that if one MUST have cable (and, indeed, we must), the speaker cable length is the most important to minimize. Why? The speaker (yeah, just about ANY speaker) presents one or more orders of magnitude more variation in impedance than any power amplifier input. The variation of impedance over the audio frequency range means that the source amplifier must work MUCH harder to maintain a linear voltage response (and thus frequency response). The impedance variations between preamp outputs and power amp inputs have much less fluctuation. Therefore, for the flattest frequency response, minimize speaker cable lengths.
Just my two cents... Happy New Year! Boomzilla
A good sense of humor makes it ALL sound better!
It all depends on the nature of the signal (high or low impedance), the transmission method (unbalanced or balanced), and the environment in which the cables are being used (high or low EMI)
The general rule of thumb is that if the signal is at consumer line level of -10dBv, and unbalanced, then keep the cables short, but if the signal is balanced at a "pro" +4dBv level then running hundreds of feet of cable is hardly going to make a difference. This is regularly done for recording microphones at -60dBv and nobody seems to grumble about the sonics of generic Belden or Mogami cable.
With speaker cables the decision comes down to the amount of power that the cable must handle as well as the relationship between source and load impedances. The effect of the cable becomes less significant at high load impedances, and low powers, but the converse applies to high power and low load impedances.
These are all measurable effects, not just those which become reveal themselves at 3am, after a few bottles of Beaujolais.
It is always wise to keep the cables as short as they need to be. People always tend to buy more cable length than they need; just in case, and the surplus inevitably ends up coiled neatly at the back of the rack or amp, adding a lovely ammount of extra inductance that the designer never intended. Modern listening or recording environments are increasingly saturated with myriad RFsources. Phones, wifi, bluetooth,switching power supplies etc. all conribute extraneous noise that can be added to the audio signal. As to how that EMI affects your audio depends a lot on how well the equipment has been designed to reject it. Poor quality input stages, may require extraordinary levels of shielding, and in this case it would be beneficial to keep cables very short.
In my experience the most problematic signal cable is always that wich connects a moving magnet (47K Ohm) source to a preamp. If there was ever a cable that was paramount to keep as short as possible it was that one.
For a lot of people with "high end" electronics, cables are a substitute for tone controls, so in that case, there are no rules as to what you can and cannot do. If it sounds good to you, then just enjoy it.