Quad 22L2 loudspeakers
UnclePandy -- Mon, 04/21/2008 - 11:19
For those interested, after auditioning B&W 683's, B&W DM's (I think - $2,000/pr.), MA Silver RS6's, & Paradigm Studio 60 v4, it came down to the Paradigm's & the Quad's. I ended up chosing the Quads. I absolutely love them. They are deep & wide and you can't beat the mids. The lows are tight & deep, rather impressive for a speaker of its size. It was the perfect choice. I would reccomend that anyone looking for a speaker in the $1K-$2K range that they listen, they are that good.
I'd love to hear the opinions of others who have heard them.
The TAS review of the original Quad 22L speaker is here:
http://www.avguide.com/products/product-3220/
I have owned a pair of 22Ls for about a year. I use them for HT and music. To tell you the truth, I have been very frustrated with them. If I move them out into my listening room about 4 feet from the rear wall (and onto a rug), they sound great, and have a deep, wide soundstage. But closer to the wall (maybe 2 feet away) the soundstage disappears, voices get a bit muddled, and they seem pretty ordinary. And since we are talking about a living room, it isn't really practical to have speakers set up 4 feet into the room.
So the bottom line is, I find them to be very dependent on room placement; I would try to get a demo of them in my home before making a purchase.
UnclePandy wrote:For those interested, after auditioning B&W 683's, B&W DM's (I think - $2,000/pr.), MA Silver RS6's, & Paradigm Studio 60 v4, it came down to the Paradigm's & the Quad's. I ended up chosing the Quads. I absolutely love them. They are deep & wide and you can't beat the mids. The lows are tight & deep, rather impressive for a speaker of its size. It was the perfect choice. I would reccomend that anyone looking for a speaker in the $1K-$2K range that they listen, they are that good.
I'd love to hear the opinions of others who have heard them.
Bob in NV
For reference, how big is your room?
tmartin wrote:For reference, how big is your room?
The room is about 19 ft by 25 ft, with the listening position about 16 ft from the wall. It is a "hard" room, with hardwood floors and a lot of glass on one wall. Maybe a bigger problem is I have a Salamander Designs equipment stand between the speakers (which are 8-9 ft apart). Placing the Quads two feet from the wall puts their grills about 6 inches in front of the Salamander; two more feet forward opens up the soundstage and improves spoken voices (when watching TV). We have a 9x12 rug between the speakers and the listening couch.
How much of the blame goes to the Quads I don't know; I do know that my vintage LS3/5a's are much less effected by the room and placement. I suspect maybe the rear firing port on the Quads is the biggest problem.
For what it's worth, I think TAS doing an article about speaker placement, especially for those of us who have to integrate our stereo listening with equipment racks and big LCD screens, would be great!
Bob in NV
I assume your issue with having the speakers away from the wall is aesthetic; clearly the room is big enough.
Good idea on the article. One article that may help is "What you should know about bass" which is here:
http://www.avguide.com/tech
I find that the deeper a speaker goes in the bass, the more room issues are present. Also, wide dispersion brings the room into play more. So does proximity to the walls.
I'm not an expert by any means, but all I've read and from personal experience is that your listening position should approximate the distance between the speakers. In most cases not to exceed around 9 feet or so if you set it up as a isosolese triangle(sp?). 16 feet back from the wall would leave 12 feet between you and the center horizontal axis of the speakers. Bringing the speakers out another 2 feet gets you 10 feet from them, which is why you get the better soundstage. I'm about 9 feet from mine (center axis), with 9 feet between them (they're about 2 1/2 feet from the wall). Same setup as my prior set of speakers (monitor audio silver 8s). Soundstage appears just fine with these Quad 22L2's (much better than the monitor audios...by that I mean it's more forgiving and a wider "sweet spot"...).
Sorry...after reading that I think my math is off based on the measurements you mentioned, but either case, you want to be within 9 feet or so of the speakers (their center axis to your position, equidistant from each speaker).
Hope that helps, but may not be practical for you to move closer to your speakers.
I think your basic point is correct. To sound their best, the Quads should be 3 or more feet from the back wall, and I should be sitting closer to them. Unfortunately, that is hard to arrange, since this is a living room, not a dedicated music room. So I am starting to consider speakers that are less sensitive to room placement - which I think might mean speakers with ports that fire forwards, not backwards, or maybe mini-monitors, like the ls3/5a.
I was certainly not trying to trash the 22L. They can sound really good - that is why I bought them. But I do think they are pretty sensitive to room placement, and you should take that into consideration when auditioning them.
mb9061 wrote:Sorry...after reading that I think my math is off based on the measurements you mentioned, but either case, you want to be within 9 feet or so of the speakers (their center axis to your position, equidistant from each speaker).
Hope that helps, but may not be practical for you to move closer to your speakers.
Bob in NV
When I reviewed the Quads 22Ls, I positioned them well away from the rear wall, roughly using HP's "rule of thirds." Unfortunately, I never tried them close to the wall. While these are some of the best "bang-for-the-buck" speakers out there, if the soundstage collapses when they get too close to the wall, they may not be for you.
I am looking forward to auditioning the newer 22L2 which supposedly has a better tweeter. Should I get them in-house, I'll try them close to the wall and report what happens.
For Quads for home theater/multichannel audio, you might read Chris Marten's review of the Quad L-lite system. Presumably, these were placed closer to the wall. http://www.avguide.com/products/product-3916/
While most loudspeakers sound much better pulled away from the rear wall, there are some speakers designed to be close to the wall. Long ago, the Linn Sara (?) I believe was such a speaker. These typically throw the image forward so you still have some semblance of a soundstage. I owned some wall-mounted Duntech's that did this quite well. Others may offer more suggestions, besides the usual suspects (e.g. Klipschorns).
Hello Jim,
That was a very informative review you gave (22L), and made me give a pair of the newer Quad 22L2 a listen. Thanks so much. These are the closest sound I've heard to the Quad ESL-57 (only with more bass and highs), that I heard so long ago.
I had a pair of 12L active and 21L, but the L2 series tweeter seems to sound so much better to these ears. I switch between the 22L2 and the NHT Classic Three with the NHT Ten sub. These are both in a small 9x12x7 room.
Thanks!
Music is the most wonderful noise.
Dear Mr. Moto,
Thanks!
What differences in the highs do you hear with the new tweeter in the 22L2, from the tweeter in the 12L?
As you might expect, I am anxious to hear the Quad 22L2
Jim
Hello Jim,
I like soft dome tweeters over metal ones. The tweeter in the L2 series seems to have the extension of a metal tweeter without any of the grainy or glassy sound I sometimes hear from metal ones. I felt like the older tweeter was slightly muted on the tail end. For my taste, this speaker now has the bottom and top end that match it's wonderful mid-range.
One of several CD's I use to evaluate a new speaker is the soundtrack to
"The Thin Red Line". Track 3 starts out with a clock ticking, and very soft taps on the drum head with sticks, both at very low volume. Most people don't even hear it until they listen with headphones. The L2 tweeter can bring this kind of detail out, where as some other speakers I've heard make it sound like there is a towel over the clock. You can hear it, but it lacks detail. The best thing about these speakers is how they sound the same no matter where I am seated in the room, and at every volume level. I paid under $1K for the pair new, and they seem like a hard act to beat. The best way I can explain these is like this. They are like listening to my AKG K701 headphones only with a soundstage. Does that make sense? Everyones taste is different, but for me this is the last word in speakers, for my needs anyways.
Later,
Moto
Music is the most wonderful noise.
Thanks for describing the differences Mr. Moto.
I thought the original 22Ls were quite the deal.
Have they changed the woofers, too in the 22L2s?
I tend to agree with your assessment of soft domes over metal domes. However, Canton has a metal dome that has tons of detail without ripping your ears off. There certainly may be others?
Happy listening!
Jim
I just moved from the Quad 12L2s (on sonus faber stands) to the 22L2s. You can imagine, a huge difference. I was totally impresed with the calrity and openenness of the 12L2s and was afraid I would loose this with the 22L2s --> I was wrong. For the money, these speakers are trmemdous - great, clear high and the bass is not muddled at all (I have them in a relatively large room with about 3 ft from front grill to back wall).
Question - I use these with an REL Storm III sub and am a little confused about the best way to start integrating this with the 22L2s. I know the 22L2s can dip to 35hz pretty easily and the REL 's range is from 18-100hz. Where would you suggest I start experimenting with the roll off of the sub.
thanks for your help. I enjoy getting TAS every month !!
Hello Jim,
They have replaced the phase plug in the lower woofer with a dust cap. The drivers seem to be the same, but the bass seems to be even more damped than before. It still extends to the mid 30/35hz in my room and sounds very tight. That's just an opinion.
I 've heard many good things about Canton speakers, just haven't had a chance to hear any.
Bob
Music is the most wonderful noise.
Unfortunately, the Canton 807DC speakers that I reviewed cost quite a bit more than the Quads (at the time, the 807s were $3500 a pair---dont' know if they've been able to hold the price there, given the sinking dollar). They have startling speed and transparency, and a more neutral balance.
My preconception was that they'd have a zippy top end, but I was wrong.
They have a neutral top end and surprisingly don't go to the yang side. You certainly couldn't call them dark or rolled off either. These speakers do require more careful amplifier matching.
Jim
I also own the 22L2 and love them. Heck of a break in period though at 200+ hours for all drivers to settle in.
I am a long time vinyl junkie audiophile. Speaker placement is a forte of mine and am called upon to place speakers for many a friend. I can hear 1/4" (or less!) differences and can lock in a sound stage. Not bragging just want to share some advice from my experiences.
Speakers should be about 8' feet apart regardless of where you sit, about 3 feet from the back wall and the more room to the sides the better. If you can't move them out into the room due to asthetics then time to come clean on your hobby priorities I say!! Find another room. Basements are perfect !!
Back to placement.... Start with 8' apart and then slowly move them closer and further apart about an inch at a time. Play something with nice vocals and listen for when the speakers disapper and the voice blooms and focuses at one spot (often hovering in the middle of the speakers). The distance between speakers has nothing to do with where you sit (so the triangle rule is good only if you place your sitting position appropriately and stick to the 8' rule...). I find that most speakers lock in at just about the same place with some variance on the physical size of the speaker. But even then it is close.
Other things that really help
- Place a soft cloth (felt is perfect) on the wall behind your speakers.
- Put the speakers on spikes and make sure there is no wobble. They should sit firm. On wood floors I often put a penny (or metal slug) under each spike. If you have carpet go through the carpet with the spikes. If wood underneath pull the carpet up and place something like a small tile so each spike can rest firmly on it and place the carpet back down. You'll hae to aim the spikes carefully but it can be done.
- slight toe in for the speakers
- Speaker phase varies on on each vinyl record and cd and if its not correct it can have you going in circles trying to place your speakers. Switch phase as an experiment. You're always listening for the speakers to disappear and a seamless soundstage.
- Clean your speaker binding posts and speaker cable connectors (in fact clean all your connectors). I use tarnx followed by a wet paper towel rinse about every 3 months. Makes a HUGE difference. Don't believe me? Next time you listen, after listening a while just disconnect and reconnet your speake cables and listen for a difference.
Music is FUN!!!
sud wrote:
Speakers should be about 8' feet apart regardless of where you sit, about 3 feet from the back wall and the more room to the sides the better. If you can't move them out into the room due to asthetics then time to come clean on your hobby priorities I say!! Find another room. Basements are perfect !!
This pretty much coincides with my experience - my Quads sound their best about 8 or 9 feet apart and 3 feet from the back wall to the back of the speaker.
If aesthetics don't matter in your house, I suspect you are single :-)
I am not using spikes.. maybe I need to experiment further.. I'll clean my connections, too..
Bob in NV
The exact distance between my quad 22L2 is 6 feet 11 and 1/4 inches measured from front inside edge to front inside edge. I keep them slightly toed in.
This is the spot where the Quad 22L2 speakers focus (and is within an inch of where my beloved but now replaced Kef 103.2's focused)
As for being single... No I am not, rather I took the basement as my listening room and have full control! Being an analog fanatic I try to optomize every aspect of my system (you should see my floating cables!!) concrete floors are they way to go.
When we looked at houses my wife would look upstairs and I would head straight to the basement. She waited for my basement report and we did pass on a few houses with "good upstairs" because the basement wasn't up to snuff.
I plan on keeping her P .
A followup to my previous posts: I have solved many of my previous complaints by exactly following the "rule of thirds" - the Quads are now 6 feet 4 inches from the nearest wall and from each other. This has removed the somewhat muddy sounding dialog in movies and tv. Following the rule of thirds in the other direction isn't really possible for me; the speakers would be 8.33 feet into the room. I do have them about 3 feet into the room, measured from the back wall to the grill, and toed in towards the listener. I am pretty happy with this setup.
This just reinforces for me the idea that the Quads can sound really good, but you have to be careful with placement to bring out their best.
sud wrote:The exact distance between my quad 22L2 is 6 feet 11 and 1/4 inches measured from front inside edge to front inside edge. I keep them slightly toed in.
This is the spot where the Quad 22L2 speakers focus (and is within an inch of where my beloved but now replaced Kef 103.2's focused)
As for being single... No I am not, rather I took the basement as my listening room and have full control! Being an analog fanatic I try to optomize every aspect of my system (you should see my floating cables!!) concrete floors are they way to go.
When we looked at houses my wife would look upstairs and I would head straight to the basement. She waited for my basement report and we did pass on a few houses with "good upstairs" because the basement wasn't up to snuff.
I plan on keeping her :P .
Bob in NV
Hi Bob,
I'm aware this is an old thread but I followed the conversation about placement of the Quad 22L speakers and was wondering if within the problems you were describing, your speakers were bi-wired or were you using a standard one wire connection ?
I recently bought a pair of Quad22L2 and found that indeed, when I use a standard connection, having them nearer than 2 feet to the back wall accentuates the bass too much and muddles things up. When they are bi-wired though, this all changes: the bass gets cleaner and less fat and the higher frequencies sound cleaner and more extended.... better separation overall. Interestingly, when bi-wired, I need to get them closer to the back wall (say between 8 to 12 inches from wall to back of speaker) to enjoy the same amount of bass I had with the standard connection (but with the speakers 2-3 feet away from wall) . I enjoy this because now it looks much better in the living room with the speakers closer to the wall (it's a room that is 12x12 in itself but open on two sides).
What are your thought on this?
John
Now that you've found a good location for the Quads, you might try moving each speaker very slightly to the left or right and see if you hear more clarity. This is a Wilson Audio set-up technique, and is based on the idea that you can slightly shift the frequencies of the nulls in the comb filtering caused by sidewall reflection. Shifting the frequencies slightly can move the nulls to less musically objectionable frequencies and improve clarity (particularly in the midrange). I heard this effect when Dave Wilson set up the X-2 Alexandria in my room about two months ago. It's the last (and smallest) tweak he did after two days of set-up and placement experimentation. We're talking a quarter of an inch left or right, which doesn't affect bass or soundstaging.
Robert Harley
Thanks for the idea, I will give it a try.
I am still astounded that the 'rule of thirds' placement made such a dramatic improvement, so I'm certainly willing to try further placement tweaks..
robert_harley6 wrote:Now that you've found a good location for the Quads, you might try moving each speaker very slightly to the left or right and see if you hear more clarity. This is a Wilson Audio set-up technique, and is based on the idea that you can slightly shift the frequencies of the nulls in the comb filtering caused by sidewall reflection. Shifting the frequencies slightly can move the nulls to less musically objectionable frequencies and improve clarity (particularly in the midrange). I heard this effect when Dave Wilson set up the X-2 Alexandria in my room about two months ago. It's the last (and smallest) tweak he did after two days of set-up and placement experimentation. We're talking a quarter of an inch left or right, which doesn't affect bass or soundstaging.
Robert Harley
Bob in NV
i have a question.......I would be highly obliged if anyone could help me with this. My room is 140sqft. I own a Denon 2807. I am planning to invest on a pair of 22l2s. the position which I have planned for them is 14 inches from the side wall and 10 inches from the back wall. I need to mention that i would be keeping them against a solid wall and parallel to each other. I also plan to buy a creek DESTINY which I will be connecting it to later on... I prefer a metallic edge to the sound of music which i listen to and cannot tolerate bass overhang. the treble according to my listening taste should be metallic, yet at the same time ruthlessly detailed,open and airy...it should float in the entire room....i am more concerned about the transparency and imaging factors rather than extra bass...the mids should be super fluid and the transmission between the different frequencies should be effortlessly seamless..the bass should be tight,might not be extended...the PRAT factor should not suffer at any cost... i am fully aware of the capability of the 22l2s.my question is would it give me what i want in my room dimensions according to the position which i mentioned....PLEASE HELP........
The QUAD 22L is a great speaker although I've just replaced them with the DALI HELICON 400 and put the QUADs as surround speakers.
In that price range ?
The QUAD is unbeatable if you actually hear them.
They need at least 400 hours to show what they've got. Tight bass, sweet mids but their Achilles heel are the damned tweeters. I didn't like their highs on several occasions. That's why I've purchased the HELICON 400, which are blessed with TWO tweeters that don't wage war at my ears.
I did not hear the QUAD 22 L2 model,though. It seems that its tweeter was tamed in this enhanced speaker.
is there any other floorstander as good as 22l2 ( at same price ) which does not entail such scientific positioning excersises now and then? Am sure some speakers would give their best irrespective of their "placement"
Speakers ONLY sound their best where THEY like to be placed, which is not necessarily where you, or your interior designer like to place them.
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