poor musician building hi-fi with care from scratch
rob@lotel -- Fri, 05/16/2008 - 11:04
Hello all,
Thanks for all your helpful writing/info. Anonymous searching has brought me this far (and now I think I need more specific help). This is my first post.
I am an inner-city philly residing musician of modest means. I'm in the process of researching and putting together my first proper hi-fi. Because of budget restrictions I'm doing this with great care (lots of research, accepting that my purchases may need to be made piecemeal).
I've been reading Robert Harley's 'Complete Guide to High-End Audio,' hi-fi magazines (Absolute Sound- your 'Six Great Stereo Systems From $827' article is what got my whole search going- and Playback's been a godsend), and online forums. I've been focusing my attention on bang-for-the-buck components. I'm thinking about purchasing an integrated amp and speakers first (using pre-existing source components- turntable, cd player, ipod- that I will upgrade later).
Integrated Amp
NAD (C325BEE, C352) and Cambridge Audio (540Av2) keep coming up.
*challenge- I sometimes like to listen to music at high levels
Speakers
I'm looking at monitors by PSB (B1, B25), Usher (S-520), Paradigm (Titan Monitor v5), Aperion (Intimus 632-LR), and Focal (706V).
*challenges- the Focals are the only speakers I can audition (at my local dealer) without purchase. -I love bass (kick drum, bass guitar- stuff down to 40hz) and I've discovered that this means more money (for bigger speakers or for a subwoofer- something I may want to do at a later date).
I listen to a lot of different types of music (jazz, classical, americana, etc.) but my collection leans heavily towards rock (beatles, stones, and other classics through to modern and experimental stuff). I would like to find an amp/speaker combo that has enough oomph (power, bass extension) to fill my small apartment with sound, doesn't break my bank account, and leaves me plenty of room for expansion.
Do you have any advice? Do you think I'm looking at appropriate components? Where would you start? My initial investment would be in the $800-$1200 ballpark but music's incredibly important to me and I plan on continuing my hobby well into the future (bit by bit).
Thanks in advance,
Rob Jennings
Hello Rob,
I think you've narrowed down your choices to some excellent options.
I recently reviewed the Focal 705V's and I was very impressed by them.
If high SPL's is one of your criteria, I suggest you set up your system for near-field or even desktop (2 - 4 feet from speakers to ears) rather than midfield. This way you don't have to drive the whole room, and if you are in an urban environment, incite your neighbors into thinking about doing you harm :)
Also don't forget about your room. Speaker placement, listening position (height, distance from walls, back, front, and side) and absorbtion - diffraction can make as much, if not more sonic difference than component selection.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Thanks Steve.
My listening room (kitchen/living room) is fairly wide (25') but shallow (13'). The floors are wood (but a good portion of it is covered in area rug). The speakers would most likely be set up on stands about 2' from the long wall, 12' from one another, and about 12' from my listening position. Typical of an urban apartment I've got some things that will diffract sound (book cases, furniture of various heights) and some that will absorb (curtains, rugs, wall hangings). The room is fairly live but I don't get a lot of slap or bounce at high frequencies. On the low end of things the room does not seem to resonate too much (at least in an annoying way). I'm intrigued about your nearfield suggestion (this is how I mix my own music at home) but I have to admit that, however flawed, I like the sound of music interacting with my room for pure listening (much the same way I enjoy the sound of my acoustic guitar strumming open chords or my guitar amp placed in the sweet spot of my room). I'm blessed with forgiving neighbors and a 3rd floor corner apartment. I can turn up my guitar amp fairly loud, during daytime practice, without complaint.
I notice that the Focal 705V has a low frequency point of 57Hz. Do you think that that would be low enough to feel some bass impact (floor toms, stand-up bass, etc) with rockn'roll material? What sort of music did you find yourself gravitating towards while auditioning these speakers?
Also, do you have any personal bias with NAD or Cambridge integrateds? Are their sonic flavors comparable? With the equipment listed above do you see any good or bad matches?
Thanks again.
-Rob
especially for an urban environment.
For full range response (that bottom octave) the Focal 705V speakers do need a subwoofer.
But a small footprint subwoofer would most likely fit into your room easily and can deliver better bass response than the 706V's can. So given the price differential a sub might not be that much more and you always have the option of turning it off at night to keep the neighbors happy. You may also find that for some music that 57 Hz limitation may give you quite enough bottom end.
As for your two electronics choices, I have to admit I haven't heard either so I can't make any recommendations, but the Focal speakers are sufficiently neutral that I doubt either would be a poor match.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Sorry to keep comin' back at you Steve but...
Are there any subs that you recommend (to pair/trio with the Focal 705V's)?
In your experience is it important to match monitors and subs according to brand? Any versatile bargain subs you've had experience with?
Your thought about bass management options is appealing. Thanks again for your time.
I've done this rarely (my Genesis 6.1 system) but I've also added additional subs (JL Fathoms) from other manufacturers to this system.
What's most important are the controls on the subs. You want to be able to integrate them with your mains smoothly so better controls - such as a variable phase rather than 0/180 and a wide range for the high-end roll-off are important.
As for inexpensive subs - I've used the Axiom EP 400 ( $1100 ) and the Earthquake Supernova Mark IV 10" ($840), but these may be more than you want to spend. Axiom makes a $170 basic sub that may work (they have a no questions asked return policy).
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
I just checked out the Axiom Audio website (thanks for the heads up). The EP125v2 seems to be their lowest priced model ($430).
I've also researched Focal's SW 700V, PSB's Subseries 1 (and 5i), and Aperion's new (as of June) Bravus 8D subwoofer ($499). As far as I can tell, the Aperion is the only one with a variable phase adjustment (everything else in this price range is 0 or 180), so your advice about the flexability and importance of a sub's adjustments really helped.
I've suggested several systems for my musician friends.
I reviewed the NAD C352 and thought it was surprisingly good for the price. Depending upon the efficiency of your speakers, the C325BEE could be sweet. Unfortunately, I haven't heard the Cambridge integrateds.
I lived with monitors (ProAc, Wilson WATTs, Reference 3As) for some time and found I HAD to have a sub. If you like bass extension and slam, monitors are not the way to go, unless you piecemeal it and get the monitors first, save up some coin, and get the subs later. Integrating them with a sub can be a bit tricky to get coherence between the monitors and the sub.
You might want to check out some of the PSB floorstanders. The PSB Image T45s are outstanding values and get you into the mid-30s for low end extension. They work very well with the NAD C352s. If your budget allows, go for the larger T55s which go even lower.
Hope this helps,
Jim
Yes Jim it helps. Thanks for your input (and the nods to your good experiences with NAD/PSB pairings). I will add the PSB floorstanding speakers to my list of speakers to check out. I'm afraid (for my wallet) that you're right about the desire for bass extension and slam. It's part of what makes playing, and going to see, live rock and roll so much fun. This monitor/sub, floorstander decision (and the money issue it brings up) would be a lot easier if I were a chamber music junkie.
Thanks again.
Rob
If you're pinching pennies, you could go with used or classic components/speakers.
Some guys I used to play in rock bands with really like classic speakers from Klipsch and Altec, as they remind them of the sound they got from their PAs at concerts. These typically have horn drivers and can take up a lot of room, but there are much smaller packages available (with less bass).
Playback mag (www.playbackmag.net) did a review of the Klipsch RB-81 bookshelf speakers in the Feb. issue, I believe. Those babies aren't going to give you all the low end extension you desire (mid-40s), but they move a lot of air and may make you the least popular guy in the apartment complex. At less than $700/pair retail who might try them on a short trial and see if they work for you.
Happy hunting,
Jim
The NAD and Cambridge amps are both excellent choices. The Cambridge sounds very smooth and "tube-like" in the midrange. Since high playback level seems to be important, I would choose the loudspeaker with the highest sensitivity, if all other factors are equal. Remember that a 3dB increase in speaker sensitivity is the same as doubling the amplifier power (in terms of how loudly the system will play).
It's also worth noting that both the NAD and Cambridge have lots of dynamic headroom, meaning that they will reproduce short-term peaks beyond their rated power without clipping.
Robert Harley
Just to weigh in on system options:
1. I think both amps on your short list are good options--both offering reasonable neutrality with a desirable touch of natural warmth.
2. Given that it sounds like you prefer a comparatively full-range speaker, may I suggest an option that will be covered in greater depth in the upcoming Playback 9; namely, the new Aperion Intimus 6T floorstander.
The 6T is well-built, fairly easy to drive, offers great dynamics, and excellent bass for the money--much better (deeper, more energetic) bass than small bookshelf speakers typically can provide. Best of all, the 6T are not crazy expensive; they go for $1390/pair, which is pretty reasonable when you consider that A) you won't need a sub, and B) you won't need speaker stands either.
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
All this information to chew on. Thanks guys.
Jim- The Klipsch speakers look interesting (I wonder why they scored relatively low on the bass rating given in the article?). Sensitive for sure.
Robert- I appreciate the reminder about speaker sensitivity (plus 1 for the Focal 706V's, minus 1 for the Usher 520's). Also, I'm familiar with vacuum tubes and their 'magic.' Your reference to them in relation to the Cambridge makes me even more anxious to check it out.
Chris- Ah, the full range speaker. Money can o' worms for sure. Often reviewers write things like 'you can always add a sub later' but when recommending full stereo systems (outside of surround) subwoofers are conspicuously absent. Bass extension + musical cohesion= more $. However, I look forward to the Aperion review in Playback.
Everyone- I know a lot of musicians and music lovers of modest means who have no idea where/how to look for quality music playback equipment. Thanks for all the attention you give to lower priced components (and music lovers with limited budgets). Most people have no idea that the products you investigate even exist. Keep up the good work.
My search continues. If any of you have any other thoughts I'd love to hear them.
thanks again,
-Rob
Hello friend:
Have you thinked in a earphone system?
I resolved my own audio needs in my room, my office, etc. with my iPod (uncompressed files), an earphone amplifier and three good pairs of earphones.
My system sound very musical, detailed, complete dynamic range, speed, bottom and upper tones, etc.
A room stereo system that can sounds as good as my portable system cost many times more expensive.
And always you can travel with it.
I hope you find my opinion useful.
Regards
:)
Hello Musician,
I have a set of Sennheiser cordless headphones. They're great when walking around the house. I'd look at Meridians' digital technology, especilly the gear in the "G" line simply out of curiosity. Essentially, the speakers are like far-field studio monitors, sort of like Mackie 824 studio monitors, except much larger. It's a different technology than analog speakers. Room correction is getting much more popular, too.
Your choices are very good. The OPPO is a great bang for the buck player. Sorry, I can't comment on the Bryston/speaker match from experience. The efficiency/sensitivity of you speaker choices are important. A sub has to match the efficiency/sensitivity of your mains to blend in correctly.
Video switching may later become a issue. WIth quickly changing technologies, I have decided to completely separate audio and video signals. All video signals plug directly into my display monitor (One set of component cables, one HDMI connection, and one cable TV feed).
Only audio signals from cinema and music go to my music system. For fast on-screen adjustments, I have a small Sony Trinitron simply connected to a extra video out signal right next to my OPPO player.
Internet radio from a Squeezebox Duet can add a ton of new music to your main system, too. If you later need a FM tuner, I can recommend a Tandberg 3011A. Fabulous sound.
Here's some info on cables - http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/the-truth-about-interconnects-and-cables/the-truth-about-interconnects-and-cables-page-6
Enjoy!
Dan
Proceed Amp 5, Tandberg 3011A Tuner, OPPO DV 981-HD, REL Storm II, SVS Ultra 13, HSU MBM-12's (pair), Klipsch RF-7's with modified horns/Vifo Soft Dome Tweeters, Sony LCD 60
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