Please help a newbie make better choices -- 2 channel preamp with HT bypass and source.
jv322 -- Mon, 02/01/2010 - 02:37
I recently purchased my first entertainment system. Prior to that, I had a 27 inch CRT and would occassionally listen to music on my laptop. I walked into a chain store that starts with a B and ended up with a pioneer pro141fd, and a definitive tech mythos ST based 9 channel DSX setup with a denon 4810ci. I bought what looked and sounded good to me at the time, and DSX seemed like fun. I got an oppo bdp-83 online, based upon a friend's recommendation. I intended to use the system almost exclusively for home theater, but much to my surprise, I've spent most of my time listening to music. I find myself sitting alone, listening to a CD and doing absolutely nothing else. I've never done that before. Ever.
Over the past couple of months read magazines and websites (including TAS and avguide.com), and visited a few high end stores. (I've tried to avoid catastrophically expensive systems ever since hearing a wilson setup in a beautiful room that sounded ridiculously wonderful. I don't want to get too tempted).
In retrospect, I would have made different choices. I'm quite pleased with the pioneer kuro and I'm glad I chose it over the samsung that was recommended to me. Even after hearing several different speakers, I'm also still quite happy with my mythos ST's for the price. I would have forgone the denon and DSX, though. I like DSX overall. Occassionally it can sound indistinct or odd, but I've had several "wow, that's cool" moments that have been really entertaining. However, I do think the money would have been better spent elsewhere, and I find the denon to be lacking in sound quality after hearing better gear, but what's done is done.
I've decided to improve my 2 channel listening experience. I ordered a few acoustic treatments online. Unfortunately, I've been unable to find anyone with a mythos ST hooked up to nicer separates (the ST's did sound noticeably better to me with an arcam avr600 as well as with a marantz av8003/mm8003). I was initially planning on getting a naim 5i or simaudio integrated or possibly a cayin. However, after speaking with Klaus at odyssey audio, I ordered a khartago stereo amp, sound unheard (great guy, Klaus). Now I'm stuck. For source, i was thinking about doing the nuforce oppo BDP-83 upgrade for 800 dollars based upon initial bdp-83 SE reviews, rather than getting a separate DAC (at least for now). Is that wise? I also need a preamp with HT bypass. I'm thinking about some kind of nice entry level tube but solid state would be fine, too. the khartago's have an input impedance of 22K and the mythos ST's are so sensitive; are most tube preamp output impedances too high? Is the arc sp17 a good fit? Would even entry level arc be wasted on the mythos st's and/or khartago's? can newbie me change out the tubes, or is it better to pay someone to do it? (a few tube manuals say that I can kill myself sticking my fingers into the wrong place and even if i lived, it might void the warranty). My room is about 15 x 26 with vaulted 12 foot ceilings. i've been listening to a little bit of everything so far.
Sorry about the long email, but I would so appreciate whatever help anyone can offer.
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Hi jv322:
Your situation is identical to mine. I too have the signature series pro-141fd (phenomenal) and the mythos STs (as well as a Mythos Ten for a center channel and Gem XL's for surrounds). Since my system update is only half way there, I too find myself listening to more music especially since I've gotten the ST"s which are truly great. I have an old Denon 3801 receiver hooked up to STs now playing music through a Denon DVD-2800 DVD player and it actually sounds pretty good in Direct mode
, but I think there is much more to be mined from those speakers with a new front end. I have also been considering going to a good integrated two channel amp with HT bypass like the Naim XS or Simaudio i3.3 (which is quite flexible depending on the options) and a new HDMI receiver to operate the surrounds and center and act as a switcher (mostly for convenience of the newer technologies). The other way of course is something like a one box solution (the Arcam AVR600) or a pre-pro (like the Marantz AV8003 you mention). Did you really like the improvement in sound with the ST's using these two in your setup (or did you just hear them at a dealer store).Is there one you preferred? I am very curious which way to go here (integrated/receiver, pre-pro/amp, or AVR600). Since the STs have a powered base section, the stereo preamp/amps should excel at driving the tweeter and mid range sections so that is my thinking on some of the options I take. I am also trying to figure what to do with the digital player part of the system and I too am wondering about getting the standard OPPO (and using an outboard DAC (as part of the i3.3 or standalone) to improve the sound through its digital outs or just ordering the SE upfront.
I'm not sure I'm helping you here but I'd love to hear about any more experiences you've had regarding getting the most out of the STs
Cheers
Lorenzo
hi, I'm so inexperienced, I feel inadequate giving you meaningful feed back. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to hear nicer separates with the mythos ST's. I really thought the avr600 sounded better than the denon, and slightly better than the marantz with the mythos. (I didn't compare the video side of things). I have to admit that I'm having trouble telling the difference between higher end separates (again, with different speakers than the mythos, different room, etc). Everything sounded better than what I hear at home. In particular, the different higher end solid state preamps/amps sounded quite similar to my inexperienced ears with the volume turned down to my normal listening level and comparing amps of the same power (as opposed to speakers, which sounded very different from each other, and for which I found myself having strong preferences almost immediately). My initial reaction was that I liked solid states slightly better; they seemed, i don't know, more exciting. But after a while, I flip flopped to tubes. In particular, an ARC setup playing art pepper, a love supreme, etc sounded absolutely wonderful. Kind of pricey, though; I can afford the low end ARC, but I feel they'll be wasted on my speakers. Also, on several tubes, I heard a low level hissing, some much more than others. Additionally, the bass and high treble seemed kind of anemic compared with the solid states(although when I commented on it, someone told me that it was because the midrange sounded so good. whatever.) Someone told me that the sensitivity of the mythos and the lowish input impedance of the khartago's i ordered, used in combination with a tube preamp, might exacerbate some of the tube issues I was hearing. So far, I've been focusing on comparing preamps/amps rather than different sources. If anyone with more experience can help me(us), I would be so thankful.
I think it is really important that you try the stuff at home in your listening room. A good dealer will let you do this. That is the only way to really see what you like better. I am going to try to do this with the AVR600 versus the Naim and/or Simaudio (might be more difficult). I know my two local dealers for Naim and Arcam will bring the gear over for a listen. Some say the Arcam is probably the only receiver around that can effectively compete with separates so I'm not surprised that you said it sounded really good. A recent issue of The Absolute Sound uses the Mythos STS's as the centrepiece of their recommended $10,000 2 channel system and used the Naim Nait 5i as the integrated amp to drive them. The amp you choose as a match for the ST's doesn't need to drive the lower frequencies as the ST's take care of that themselves. The ST's are also very efficient speakers so in theory, you don't need a high power amp to drive them which is good because many lower powered amplifiers are also very good sounding amplifiers as well. I haven't heard any tube amps but they might work as well as many are lower powered and interestingly enough, Sandy Gross (former Definitive exec and designer of the Mythos speakers) uses a Cayin tube amp with them.
I am going to be trying some of this stuff soon and I will let you know what I find out.
Cheers
Lorenzo
I think I'm doing this wrong. The reply I made to yours didn't get posted. (this is my first foray into any kind of forum). But thank you so much for the info and advice. I haven't wanted to take stuff home before getting the odyssey Khartago (it's back ordered). I probably should have taken a few amps/preamps that I favored home to try before ordering the odyssey, but I liked Klaus and wanted to purchase from him. After I break it in, I'll definitely take your advice and trial a few preamps and sources with it. I'd love to hear from you about your experiences.
There is one solution that you have not considered.
This is how I integrated my HT system in with my 2 channel system. I have a seperate HT reciever (a Sony, forget the model off the top of my head) and 2 channel preamp/DAC (EMM Labs DCC2). I run the EMM Labs via XLR (balanced) into my Gilmore Raptor monoblock amps. And I run the RCA Left and Right channel outs from the Sony receiver into the Gilmore Raptor amps (RCA inputs) as well. This combo give me the purest sound in both 2 channel and HT.
Hope that helps!
Keith Forrest
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No worries. I did get your first post. The Khartago got a really good rating as well from The Absolute Sound (issue 199), so hopefully it works well with your speakers. There's so much info (often conflicting) out there I just figure the only way to truly make a decision is to listen to the equipment in your own space. That's the only way you can be sure you are getting what you want these days. Let me know how it sounds when you get it.
Cheers
Lorenzo
To answer the main question the primare pre30 and the wyred4sound pre amp se are by far the best choices for preamps with ht bypass If its a price issue check out the parasound 2100 then the emotiva the limit on the emotiva is the pass threw only goes to a high pass and a sub out the full range out is the main and has nothing to do with the bypass in my opinion completely defeats the point.
I have the Wyred4Sound STP-SE Pre (incorporates HT bypass) and the integration with my W4S SX1000 Mono Bloc's works very well for me. I was able to use XLR cables to my Mono Blocs which I moved directly behind my Magnepan 3.6R's. My Maggie's really like the integration. I listen to Jazz, Classical, Easy Listening, Rat Pack type music and 60's Folk.
I can only only testify about my listening experience and others who have come by. I would generally put an accoustical guitar piece on for them and then go to Frank and female vocalists for an introduction and then play some of their favorites. They all were amazed at the clarity.
jv322,
Mapletree Audio makes tube preamps one at a time, with or without phono stage. Priced under $1000. Mine is being built now. Though it's not mentioned on the website, I asked for HT bypass and he is setting up one of the inputs that way. The pre works with input impedances down to 10k. Though I haven't spoken with Klaus, I suspect working with Loren will be similiar to your experience with Odyssey. Check the web site for more information and reviews.
http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/
You can send Loren your amp specs to verify compatibility.