Oppo BDP-83 vs Samsung BD-P3600 Blu-ray Player - A Comparison

stereodaves -- Sat, 06/13/2009 - 19:34

0

Dear AVguide,

 
We were planning on posting an evaluation in March of the new Oppo Blu-ray Player (BDP-83), but unfortunately the Oppo player was not available to listen to until just recently. Oppo has had quite an extensive customer evalation period before releasing the new player. Luckily for us, a friend and customer of ours was among the few people who participiated in this evaluation. He liked many things about the new player, but  was not totally satisfied with it. On some discs, the player seems to present a highly detailed presentation with a very pinpoint sound stage and superior dynamics, but on other discs, the player made his CDs seem almost unlistenable; in his words being much too "dry" (We will get to our theory about this later).  As he knew we do modifications to receivers, players, and Blu-ray players, he wanted us to take it home and evaluate it ourselves on our system and see if there were any improvements we could make. As it happened the new Samsung Blu-ray player BD-P3600 came out just a month before this player (in Oregon) and we have not had a chance to evaluate this unit either.
We were able to evaluate both players side by side and came up with some interesting conclusions. The Oppo right out of the box, has stunning Blu-ray video, with some of the deepest blacks we have seen so far. The Samsung right out of the box was very excellent and is far better than its earlier model (BD-P2550), but we found at first it did not have quite the black levels or three dimensionality / detail, as the Oppo unit, which we were very impressed with. Later, we discovered that the difference in between players was mostly able to be adjusted out with black corrector settings on our TV; the Oppo player itself boosts up the black levels internally. But even with these adjustments on the TV, while playing the Samsung player, the Oppo was just a bit better in three dimensionality and detail when both units were factory units and not modified.
 
As for the sound of both units, the Oppo boasts the ability to play most any format available (Blu-ray, DVD, DVD-audio, SACD, HDCD, CD, etc), while the Samsung is strictly a Blu-ray / DVD / CD player. You do pay for the extra formats on the Oppo player, though, with the Oppo being reported to be around $600 and the Samsung being $375. The sound of the Oppo is greatly improved from previous Oppo units we have tested, which always had a characteristically brittle top end and shallowness of bass response. The unit appears to have been completely redesigned, with a completely different sound characteristic and much better build quality than previous players from Oppo. We compared theOppo to our reference player, which is a Modified Pioneer Elite DV-48AV Universal Player.
 
At first, we were very impressed with the Oppo player (BDP-83), as it has a very transparent mid range / lower top end range, but then on other CDs we started hearing some things that were not quite correct. For instance, on a Shirley Horn CD, there was a harmonica that just sounded hollow, lacking the usual body / tone of the instrument, which we thought was rather strange. After testing various formats and discs we started to see a pattern. The transparency of the Oppo in the mid-range and lower top end was due to a lack of very bottom end frequency extension and thinness on the very top end frequencies. Especially, with less bass extension, you will get the feeling of more transparency / a lighter feel to the sound, as there is less lower bass to mix in with your mid range frequencies. On the top end, the lack of extension at certain high frequencies, will tend to help with accentuating certain frequencies and give you a greater degree of transparency, as well, in those frequencies. But as stated earlier, this can lead to certain aspects of the sound that may be impressive, but not necessarily correct. I found the Oppo tended to sound better on CDs that had a warmer characteristic to them, than on CDs that tended to be a bit cooler/ neutral. The warmer CDs would sound cleaner and less warm and the cooler discs would tend to sound dryer / more analytical. This happened to several SACDs / DVD-audio discs, where the stage would sound larger, but at the same time, the instruments had lost their fluidity (became rather analytical) and the ambiance in the recording venue, was not as transparent at the very top, with the overall performance taking on a slightly unnatural characteristic. On DVD-audio the Modified Pioneer Elite unit, had more texture to the voice and more detail, as well as lower bass levels. These same characteristics seemed to follow the Oppo player into every sound format we tried, including Blu-ray high resolution formats, with the bass not extending as low and being thin on the top end.
 
The latest stock, unmodified Samsung Blu-ray player (BD-P3600) out of the box had it's own particular characteristics. The bass right from start had lower bass extension than the Oppo (not quite as low as the Modified Pioneer). There was no thinness to the top end as we heard with the Oppo, but in our opinion, it could get a tad harsh on some frequencies (for classical music mostly), as it did not extend as high as the modified Pioneer player. An interesting observation is that on music CDs the player tends to favor rock / jazz much more than classical music, as classical music is often more difficult to play well. On our test of Jack Johnson on CD, it played it sounded rather remarkably good. It was quite a bit better than how the Oppo sounded on that disc, being thinner and shallower on the bass. On classical music, the Samsung did not fair as well, sounding a bit harsh and constricted.
 
Blu-ray playback was very good, with the video being quite excellent and an improvement over Samsungs last model, in terms of sound and video. The unit did not have built in boosted black levels so one had to adjust the TV to get near to how the Oppo looked, but for comparing unmodified units, I would still give the slight edge to the Oppo in detail and three dimensionality. Samsung's Blu-ray audio was very excellent. It had lower bass levels than the Oppo player and also lacked the thinness, which plagued the Oppo. With the Oppo player this thinness at times seemed to give the sense of more immediacy, but it cut back on the extension of the unit, leaving you with less ambiance and presence of "air" on the top.
 
We then modified both units to see how each took to the modification. The modified Oppo (BDP-83) player was definitely much less thinner. The thinness did not totally vanish (and I doubt it ever will), but it was greatly improved. The bass extended to a lower frequency, adding some warmth to the sound, but it was still not as low as the modified Pioneer player on many formats. In terms of the video, the playback for the Oppo was noticeably improved in terms of three dimensionality, and color balance.
 
The modified Samsung player (BD-P3600) took to the modification quite a bit better than the Oppo player. It's bass extended to an even lower frequency than it had originally been across all audio formats. And its highs extended higher as well, giving it more of a sense of air and being much less harsh. I would say that the modified Pioneer still has a slight edge in CD playback, but the Samsung player was greatly improved in audio playback after the modification. As for Blu-ray video playback, the Samsung caught up to the Oppo (with the proper TV black level adjustments) and in my opinion, was a bit more detailed / three dimensional after being modified. We did try to play the modified Oppo player at identical black level adjustments on our TV as the modified Samsung player, but found that it became too dark. Blu-ray audio on the Samsung playerwas also greatly improved, with the frequency levels going lower and extending higher as well, giving the player a quite stunning Blu-ray playback package.
 
As for conclusions, we would say that the Modified version of Samsung's latest Blu-ray player (BD-P3600) is a superior player than even the Modified Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray player, especially when it comes to the Blu-ray audio. The Samsung goes lower, is more dynamic, captures the highs better and has none of the thinness of the Oppo. The video of the Modified Samsung player, is also quite stunning when the TV is properly adjusted and slightly edges out the modified Oppo player in terms of clarity and three dimensionality. We are not saying the Oppo Blu-ray player is a bad unit, in fact we think very highly of it as a very good effort by Oppo and a great improvement over their earlier generation units. The video is quite frankly stunning on the Oppo.
As this is a non-commerical forum, we will not post prices for modifications, but we will say that modifications for both players will be available shortly, as we know a fair amount of audiophiles will purchase the Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray player for the multi-format playback capabilities and may have issues with a certain thinness or analytical quality on some recordings. Our friend had ribbon tweeters, which seemed to magnify these flaws to a certain extent. On our own speakers (custom single driver speakers and custom modified subwoofers), these shortcomings were even more evident. We hope this article has been both informative and interesting to those of you who have not got a chance to hear the new and much awaited Oppo Blu-ray player.
Thanks,
Sean and Rick
Stereo Dave's Audio Alternative

 

GuyR (not verified) -- Thu, 06/18/2009 - 11:45

You were using the 7.1 analog on both players, correct? Otherwise, if you were bitstreaming I wouldn't think that most of these comments are applicable in this case.

David (not verified) -- Thu, 06/18/2009 - 12:13

I plan to buy the OPPO unit because of the SACD, DVD Audio, etc, replacing my current OPPO unit.
I hope, by running all through bitstream to my receiver, the audio shortcomings would be minimal as compared to the review.
I'm surprised the review not cover a bitstream overview.

GuyR (not verified) -- Thu, 06/18/2009 - 12:26

I should add that I mean that  the audio comments would not be valid and that the bitstreaming I am referring to is over HDMI as a raw signal. 

SmartGuy (not verified) -- Thu, 06/18/2009 - 14:01

There are many discrepencies I see in this review, but I do not wish to get into that right now.
I will say this much though...
I have used Samsung and Oppo players for the last few years, and when it comes to customer support and service, there is no contest between the two OEMs.
I would rate Samsung to fluctuate between a 1 and a 6 our of 10. Sometimes their service is ok, most of the time it stinks. Their firmware updates are few and far between, and don't cure some of the worst problems even when they are revised. Trying to get technical answers or real world communication from Samsung is about as fun as pulling your own teeth out of your mouth with a pair of pliars.
OppoDigital on the other hand, is the most pleasurable company I have EVER had to deal with. There is no better service and support form any other etailer on the net than Oppo... period.
They are VERY quick to respond to emails and are always available for phone calls during business hours. 99.9% of the time they reply to emails within 24 hours, even on Sundays and holidays, I kid you not. A lot of the time emails are replyed to in minutes as opposed to hours. With Samsung, you're lucky to get a response at all, and when you do it's usually a "canned" response that almost never helps your actual problem. Oppo actually listens to their customers and gives real world support and personable responses. I would rate their service at an 8 on their worst day, and a 10 or 11 out of 10 most of the time. Yes, it's that good. Their firmware and hardware support and repair service is also top notch.
^This aspect of what the end user gets when making a purchase can make all the difference in the world. When you really need something that should be covered under your warranty or purchase agreement, and the seller or OEM does not come through, then you have a very serious problem on your hands that can potentially rape you of lots of money. These players and other components are costing more and more these days, and one thing the buyers can do to insure their invesment is to buy from a company that is reputable in their support department.

DAN K. (not verified) -- Thu, 06/18/2009 - 14:26

WHAT DO YOU DO TO "MODIFY" THE PLAYERS. How much does it cost?

stereodaves -- Sat, 07/04/2009 - 07:04

First off, our apologies for the lack of attention to this thread. We were under the impression that we would be notified in our email if there were any responses to our post. As we did not receive any such notifications, even though it is checked in our profile to do so (and we have received others prior to this), we were under the impression there was very little interest regarding our post / review. When we just checked the forum out of curiosity (as both of our latest posts seemed to generate no feedback), we were surprised to see the number of responses. 
 
 
Getting back to the post at hand, we would like to make a few clarifications. The testing of these two players  (Stock and Modified Samsung BD-P3600 and Stock and Modified Oppo Digital BDP-83) was conducted with pieces of well recorded classical and popular music on both HDMI and Analog outputs respectively. We did tests of two channel CD selections, as well as multi-channel and stereo high resolution (DVD-A / SACD) selections. We also played Blu-ray movies to test sound and video.  I should have mentioned this in the post / review. On both players, through HDMI, we did test out the Bitstream digital option, as we have found all of the Blu-ray players we have tested consistently sound the best through the Bitstream mode.  And to respond to GuyR’s comments, a difference can be heard between two players even on Bitstream. Maybe it’s the sound of the transports or something deeper…but the interesting thing is that we heard the same character of sound from both units on all outputs we tried, but this is not particularly surprising, as we have run across the same phenomenon in other players, Blu-ray and DVD alike.
 
Our modification to both players was done with our proprietary process, that has been at least 5 years and counting in the making.  This proprietary process began with our late friend and my late boss, Mr. David Herren.  This process is improved on a continual basis after many late night listening sessions.  By this proprietary process, we improve the functioning and efficiency of all the capacitors and other electronic components of the modified unit, affecting not only specific signal paths, but also improving the electron flow, functioning and performance of the entire machine. This change in facilitation of the electron flow results most often in the frequency range expanding on both ends of the spectrum, resulting in more “air,” clarity, wider staging, better location, deeper more tighter bass and an overall more musical, yet clearer presentation. Video is also improved, with the blacks becoming “blacker,” three dimensionality being improved, as well as clarity of picture and colors becoming more correct. With the Samsung BD-P3600, this is exactly what happened, as there was quite a substantial difference between the unmodified and modified units in terms of sound and video. The Samsung started off a bit softer looking in the video, with less three dimensionality and shallow black level  than the Oppo, but when modified, it is virtually identical, if not ever so slightly better. The Oppo player’s video  improved to a goodly degree, but it was at such a high level to begin with that it did not have as far to go as the Samsung player.  In terms of audio, the modification to the Samsung caused the unit to extend to a higher frequency level, giving it more detail, air, and better location and go to an even lower bass floor.  The Oppo became much more musical, with almost all of the thin sound we heard being mitigated.  The bass level on the bottom also was extended to a much lower degree, but not quite as low as the Samsung or on other formats our modified Pioneer Elite DV-48AV. In terms of price, as keeping with this being a non commercial forum, you can go to our site and take a look or email me privately.  As of yet, we have not had a person return a modified unit. Many times, we have had people email us or call us up to tell us how pleased they were with the modification or how much difference they heard.
 
Back to the Samsung and Oppo Post. We should also note that we tested in two rooms / systems. One system had ribbon tweeters and dual subs. I would like to say they were Thourough Bass Subs. At first, I wondered if it was his system, as the Oppo did very well on some CDs, sounding very clear and transparent, while on others, especially with a female voice of a certain frequency, it had this odd, rather unnatural “dryness” and certain strange sibilance. Some CDs were very unmusical sounding, while others sounded great. Then we tried it on another system that was made up of custom made single driver speakers / extremely low custom modified very fast subs on each channel to test it out. At first we too thought it was more transparent, until we played a vocal track with a harmonica and just heard a hollow sound to it and started hearing the lack of body. We also started to hear that dry, unnatural, analytical sound that we heard at the other system on a decent amount of our tracks. We then played some lower bass tracks and found the player was lacking low frequency response at a certain very low level.
 
And in response to “sf_doc,” the Oppo player we tested had the latest firmware and is the currently released player. And the bass that we are talking about is on the very lowest fundamentals. We could not hear this lack of very low bass the in previous system, but on our system, if a person listened carefully, the bass of the Oppo had quite a bit of “pop” to it (which we did not find objectionable at all), but at the very lowest frequencies did not have the same darkness, or as much feeling in the floor at certain very lowest frequencies as compared to what we were testing it against. And we did test this when it was unmodified, but burned in, and also when it was modified.
 
And in response to “Kelli’s Husband,” that was a very astute comment you made about rooms and equipment being a significant factor to how a piece will sound. That is why we wanted to listen to this unit in two different places and systems. And we do, to a certain degree, agree with your comments about matching up equipment and rooms. We do know and openly acknowledge that for some people who have rather warm (I will abstain from saying muddy :D ) bass / mid bass heavy systems, we think the Oppo with it’s slight lack of the lowest fundamentals will cause the person to feel the bass is being cleaned up because there is less of the lowest frequencies, while at the same time the top end having that “thinness” will tend to cause some systems to have an illusion of transparency, detail and openness / width to the soundstage. It is very seductive. But this level of detail / transparency (which is quite impressive at times) seems to come at the price of primarily a natural, musical sound. On many CDs there is almost a feeling like you are getting every single detail, but its like listening to your music through a fine toothed comb. A certain overall musical picture is lost in the process, with some instruments / vocals having a processed sound and we found lacking “air” on the top. For a few CDs we were taken in and really thought the Oppo had done a great job and still do to a certain degree. This is by far Oppo’s best player and we have been testing Oppo players from the beginning. We hoped they would come out with a good, musical player that did not have the characteristic brittleness we and others kept hearing from each of their players. This is definitely a new and much improved player over the older models. We do believe many Oppo customers will be very much pleased, once again, depending on their systems. We would also like to acknowledge, as others have on this board, Oppo’s very stellar customer service. They are very nice people to deal with and we would have had no problem if their player did test out better than the Samsung Blu-ray player or our Modified Pioneer player, but the problem is that just because a company is full of “nice guys” (who do a good job on packaging the unit), doesn’t mean this niceness is necessarily going to translate into the highest level of the excellence in sound. And on that note, I have updated firmware with the previous model and this model of Samsung and have never had any problems, albeit I did just burn a firmware update disc and stick it in the unit.
 
Also, we did notice that “warmer” recordings benefited greatly from the Oppo, whereas, more neutral recordings tended to become on the “dryer” side. And while we do acknowledge that much will depend on a person’s system, we would like to point out that in both systems we tested, we did hear many of the same characteristics to one degree or another. Some characteristics were accentuated in his system and others came to light in ours. And being in the modification business, if we didn’t think anything we did would make a difference in a variety of rooms and equipment, we would quite frankly not bother, but we do know that typically a neutral, musical, spacious piece, with tight low bass extension will sound very good in most every room and equipment combination (baring of course outright hideous rooms with strange anomalies).
 
Also in response to “markbsigler,” There are a few rudimentary tips to adjusting the Blu-ray players. First, off in terms of audio, always look to disable anything that says dynamic sound / compression, which will take away from frequency range and also turn off any “downsample PCM” setting. Also, as noted earlier, Bitstream setting on the digital out through the HDMI always sounds the best typically.  In terms of video, we did not adjust  the video settings of the Oppo or Samsung. What we have found is that a well adjusted HDTV will help out a Blu-ray player to a large degree. Particularly useful are the Iris adjustments (if your TV has an iris) and Black level settings (sometimes known as the “Black Corrector.” What we noticed is that most Blu-ray players can benefit greatly from these settings, especially the Black level settings, which give the player often an even greater degree of Three dimensionality and clarity.
 
In response, to “Steve Dollar,” the reason you might not want to get a “less expensive player” is that the audio and video on these two players (particularly when modified), is stellar. The video, in and of itself, is at a different level than even the last model by Samsung, which we thought was quite excellent. In terms of audio, a good DAC may be helpful on players that could use some help, but based on some of our customer’s experiences, at times it can be a limiting factor if the unit itself is improved substantially through modification. We did have one gentleman who ended up by not using his “thousand dollar” DAC on a player we modified, as it sounded much better without the DAC in the signal stream after the modification. Also,  one thing we have noticed is that with the right combination of Blu-ray players and HDMI receivers, the new high resolution audio formats (particularly DTS HD master), are stunning, and are worlds beyond 2 channel redbook CDs. Until recently, we were dedicated 2 channel audio guys, but DTS HD Master is stunning, especially on concerts like the “Berlin Concert” with Anna Netrebko or “Black and White Nights” withRoy Orbison.
 
Well, I hope this clarified a few things and thank you very much for taking the time to read our post / review. We hope it has been helpful. If you have any question feel free to post them or email me. Once again, my apologies for not  posting back here sooner and I will have to look into why I did not receive any notification of replies.
 
Thanks,
 

Sean and Rick
Stereo Dave's Audio Alternative
www.stereodaves.com

Jeff Rosen (not verified) -- Fri, 06/19/2009 - 11:31

Glad to see a similar reaction to the Oppo that I had. I have been using the Denon 3910 and was waiting for the Oppo since it handled all formats along with Bluray. I am using the 5.1 analog outs into an Outlaw preamp and amp and found that the Oppo lacked the body in sound quality that the Denon has. Yes the Oppo pix is quite good but having put my money (and Passion) into the sound side a bit disappointed with the Oppo. Was hoping to cut down on my playback units, probably will keep both "on line",

markbsigler (not verified) -- Fri, 06/19/2009 - 12:52

I have the Samsung BD-P3600 with a Samsung LN52A650 HDTV, Pioneer Elite VSX-84TSXi receiver and Boston Acoustics speakers.
My father just received his Oppo BDP-83, which he's using with MacIntosh components and other audiophile equipment.
I've been very pleased with the Samsung, although Customer Support is poor, and the PC Streaming feature is poorly designed and implemented. I have been using the Blu-ray player and the HDTV out of the box without significant adjustments in a large well lit room.
I would be interested in any advice on proper adjustments, and I know my father would be interested in learning more about the specific  modifications to the Oppo. Maybe you'll be posting more detail to your website? http://www.stereodaves.com/modifications.php

Kelli's Husband (not verified) -- Fri, 06/19/2009 - 15:33

There are so many factors that could influence the audio results in this comparison that without looking at them, the results are inconclusive.  What we do know is that as far as the reviewer is concerned, using the cables, speakers, etc. of their setup, the modified BD-P3600 provided a richer sound than the modified Oppo BDP-83.
I have enjoyed audio reproduction as a hobby and reviewer for over 50 years.  In that time I have learned that the even very best components can sound "thin, " "Harsh," "Analytical," "Unrealistic," etc., when they do not complement one another.  At the same time I have heard more modest components sound glorious when combined in a way that results in their complementing one another.
Everything in the equation, of course, depends on your live reference and your reproduction objective.  Mine has always been to reproduce the sounds as accurately as possible - given the limits of what I was willing to invest in the enterprise.  My reference is acoustic sound in Orchestra Hall in Chicago during the Fritz Reiner era.  If I could reproduce that sound accurately, I knew the other sources would be accurate as well.
So here we are debating the merits of two pieces of equipment, without any information on recordings used, pressings used (different issues sound different for a variety of reasons), recording engineer biases, cable characteristics, speaker characteristics, and the like.  This is all fun, but doesn't answer the question, "which is the better player."  That depends on what your other equipment is all about.  The Samsung may well be better in some A/V configurations, while the Oppo will likely be better in other A/V configurations.
Each listener/viewer has to trust their own ears and eyes, based on their own audio and video references.  I don't want my home theater to sound like the local cineplex.  They have mediocre speakers playing through maybe ok cables at volumes that frequently max out the preamps and amps.
I much prefer the sound in my home.  It is richer, fuller, with greater extension (most theaters do not use ribbon tweeters that reproduce all the harmonics out to 80,000hz), and has that quality of the equipment disappearing so that only the sound remains.  Of course not every recording is capable of producing that result because they are not mixed accordingly.  That is why, every year, some film soundtracks and recordings win awards for sound engineering excellence - while the vast majority are not nominated.
It is comforting to see that the same old debates are still with us.  A is better than B (or B is better than A) because I like it better.  In the end, that's all that matters to the person who prefers A over B and to the person that prefers B over A.
Regards to all.  Enjoy the hobby, and have fun with it.  And if your lucky, after a few decades you will achieve the reproduction of the sound you were seeking.

Styln (not verified) -- Sat, 06/20/2009 - 18:26

Here's the deal. I own the BDP-83, but not the Samsung. So no comment on how they compare. I do own a Musical Fidelity 3DCD and a Sony SACD player with heavy Modwright changes. I did extensive comparisions of the BDP-83 against these two older CDPs. There is no doubt that the Oppo is an audiophile quality player via it's RCA stereo outputs. As the previous poster statesYMMV (I would not categorize the sound as thin in any area), but the Oppo is absolutely "in there."  As with any audio purchase, you should try it before you buy it. Fortuantely, Oppo makes this simple and easy to do.
Enjoy whichever one fits best in your system. I'm sure they are both terrific.
Styln

Steve Dollar (not verified) -- Sat, 06/20/2009 - 22:33

I'm only interested in two-channel audio, and expect to add the new Music Hall DAC to process sound from whatever BluRay player I get. I like the Oppo for its versatility and the buzz about video quality. Although, all in all, I wonder if I'm just as well off buying a less expensive player since I'm gonna add a DAC anyway. I'm using a 2000/2001-era Toshiba SD9200 ... top of the line in its day, but it doesn't have an HDMI output even, rejects half the discs I feed it, and is easily bested on all ways by my MacBookPro used as a DVD source via HDMI/DVI cable into a Samsung flatpanel. I feel like I need to get something soon, regardless.

sf doc -- Sun, 06/28/2009 - 11:35

I'm an old geezer who just got the 83. I was using an old Elite 47 ai to play my discs. I am/was using the analogue stereo out on both players. I use 2 Genesis subs for my low end. When S_Dave stated that the low end of his 83 was lacking then I had to conclude that the prototype was sure not the same as the unit I got in June.
Ditto on Oppo's customer service. A real pleasure.
drj

Sam -- Mon, 06/29/2009 - 04:05

My oppo BDP83 died after about a week of use:( no power anymore. Went to standby mode then totally dead. Inconvenience sucks.

JimA (not verified) -- Mon, 08/10/2009 - 00:43

I just sold my Oppo 83. It is an excellent player with a great remote. I just tried out  a Sony, Pio 32 ans Samsung 3600. I was stunned how good the Samsung 3600 is for it's price. In fact, it does sound better than my old Oppo 83. I am waiting for the new Marantz UD 9004. But will be happy with the 3600 foe now. I need a player that has balanced out because my preamp (BAT 53SE) only has balanced out/in. I am very interested in Stero Dave's mods.

stereodaves -- Wed, 08/19/2009 - 13:07

 Hi Jim,
I just wanted to let you know that I was able to obtain the Pioneer unit you were looking into for at a decent price. Contact me if you are still interested. Thanks

Sean and Rick
Stereo Dave's Audio Alternative
www.stereodaves.com

stereodaves -- Wed, 08/19/2009 - 13:09

 hmm this forum seems to have some difficulty with using google chrome...

Sean and Rick
Stereo Dave's Audio Alternative
www.stereodaves.com

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