OPPO BDP-83 Bluray Disc Player - plays SACD as DSD rather than PCM. DSD vs PCM question
david011777 -- Tue, 05/05/2009 - 07:37
I am awaiting the much anticipated Oppo BDP-83 Bluray Disc Player, which, among other capabilities, plays SACDs. Furthermore, it is one of the only SACD players which can output as DSD rather than first converting to PCM. Sounds great, I think - I've clearly heard the sonic improvement with SACD over redbook discs, but I'm also certain that every SACD player I've ever listened to has first converted the DSD signal - what sets SACDs apart from the pack - to PCM.
To accomodate the necessary bandwidth for DSD (1bit at 2.4Mhz) the output must be HDMI 1.3, but unfortunately my Anthem AVM30 preamp doesn't have that capability. Finally, my question: is conversion from DSD to PCM accompanied by a loss in sound quality? If the signal is sent as DSD to the preamplifier, won't it have to convert the digital signal to an analog one anyhow? I suppose there's an extra A/D-D/A step in there if I have to transmit SACD information as PCM, but I'm not sure what the consequences are of that. Thoughts?
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The advantage of maintaining a DSD bitstream to the DACs, and converting DSD to analog, is that the signal is never subjected to the low-pass reconstruction filter required in conversion of PCM to analog. This filter is a significant contributor to what we call "CD sound" (hard timbres, flat soundstage, for examples).
To answer your question directly, conversion of DSD to PCM does degrade sound quality.
The DSD-to-analog converter is extraordinarily simple compared to PCM-to-analog conversion. In fact, it is theoretically possible to convert a DSD bitstream to analog with a single capacitor. That's the beauty of DSD.
Anthem tech support responded:
When the player sees the handshake, it won't send DSD - it'll be multichannel PCM.
This is just fine because no processing can be done in DSD. For bass management, room correction etc it would be converted to PCM anyway (this also happens during SACD mastering but Sony doesn't tell that to just anyone).
There is not loss in converting DSD to PCM (though the same can't be said about the opposite direction - a sizable amount of noise that has to be filtered by the SACD player results).
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Is the statement that HDMI connections won't allow DSD transmission (and therefore must be PCM) a generally accurate statement or is it specific to Anthem processors?
Also, Mr. Harley - I've read in a few sources that nearly all SACD players output as PCM and so Oppo's claim to transmit as DSD is relatively unique. How true is this statement; and if it's accurate, how have you been able to hear SACD as a DSD (i.e., not converted to PCM) signal? Put another way, how can I hear SACD as a DSD signal and judge for myself?
Thanks as always for the insight.
Hi,
Which is better? (1) To use the bass management on the Universal DVD player or (2) utilise the facility provided in the HT DSP unit?
Regards
William
I bought one of the early Sony NS-500V's and was struck by the UTTER superiority of SACD. After a PS meltdown I bought first, a Samsung, and then an OPPO UDP. In both cases the superiority over Redbook diminshed markedly. To the point where DVD-A discs sounded much superior to both; more analog and "live". I am strictly 2.1 and have no wish to go "Surround Sound" ; especially since I run tube/hybrid ampiification. One question: if it so simple in terms of conversion why don't the manufacturers do it?
There are some processors which will recieve and decode DSD over HDMI - see Kal Rubinson's review of the Integra DTC-9.8 and the Oppo 980 at this link:
http://www.stereophile.com/hirezplayers/108mitr/index.html
You'll note Kal actually preferred transcoding to PCM first. RH is quite right that direct D/A conversion of DSD is theoretically superior to transcoding to hi-res PCM before D/A conversion. In practice, in your scenario, there are complicating factors. The reconstruction filter for transcoding from DSD to 88.2 khz, if intelligently implemented, need not be nearly as problematic as the reconstruction filter needed for, say, 44.1 khz Redbook format. And DSD conversion is sensitive to jitter in very different ways than high-bit PCM - and HDMI is not known for being a low-jitter transmission medium. So the final results will depend significantly on the quality of the DSD->PCM conversion, the jitter magnitude and spectra of the HDMI transmitter and reciever, the de-jittering strategies applied by the processor, and the relative quality of the PCM and DSD conversion sections in the processor. I'm afraid no generic answer will cover all of these variables.
Quite informative, thanks for the note Scott. Indeed it sounds like there won't be a clear answer to my scenario/question after all!
Perhaps a silly question, but would transmitting DSD over multiple digital connections (e.g., multiple digital coax cables to make up for the lack of bandwidth afforded by HDMI 1.3) attenuate the jitter issue you mentioned with HDMI? Secondly, is there a way to attenuate the jitter (some sort of clock between the HDMI leaving the source and before entering the processor) that you get with HDMI cables? I expect that such a clock would probably cost more than my source player and preamp combined...but now I'm just curious. Thanks again.
David, there are a couple of issues which tend to make HDMI exhibit lousy audio jitter performance, and they're unrelated to the HDMI cable per se. One is that the HDMI audio clock is not transmitted directly - it's derived from the video clock. Another is that most products which incorporate HDMI interface chips are highly concerned with audio quality, and the chip makers design appropriately. But it definitely is possible to reduce jitter over an HDMI interface - see the measurements in this link:
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=59207&page=2
And note the two orders of magnitude better performance of the Pioneer relative to the others. Pioneer, because of their mainstream associations, doesn't get credit for the quality of their digital engineering through the years. I'd bet very few "high end" processors with HDMI interfaces match the jitter performance from the Pioneer ... In any case, you clearly can engineer around the limitations of HDMI to a significant degree, it's just a question of how many products currently do so.
Also, here's a link to a PowerPoint speaking to the issues of audio over HDMI generally:
http://www.aessf.org/meetings/presentations/AESSF_HDMI_Audio_Presentatio...
Oops, I obviously meant that most products incorporating HDMI are *not* concerned with maximum audio fidelity ...
True about Pioneer but Sony and Denon have similar solutions to jitter, Sony is PQLS and Denon is coming up with another one in their Denon Link IV, quoting "The 4th Edition of DENON LINK adds the exclusive Denon Flow Control feature; when using the HDMI interface for A/V output, Denon Flow Control takes over the Master Clock and Jitter control – a feature that will be especially useful when used with upcoming Denon A/V receivers. DENON LINK is a proprietary, high-quality digital audio transmission technology that utilizes a real-time balanced transmission system to protect the signal from external noise. With the new advanced DENON LINK 4th used in an HDMI connection, as well as for HD audio read from Blu-ray discs, the master clock that operates the D/A converter of the A/V surround amplifier is transmitted to the player, enabling the circuitry to be operated while sharing the same clock, thereby achieving digital audio transmission with virtually no jitter. Sound localization becomes more precise, and a greater sense of space is produced in the sound images. When combined with a Denon A/V surround sound receiver that supports DENON LINK 4th, users will now be able to enjoy the absolute maximum level of sonic quality possible with HD audio"
To david01177, ScottB is correct on all counts (as usual).
Indeed - thanks a lot for the thorough insight. Regarding Oppo players, does anybody have an idea of the jitter specs for these? I tried to look on the internet and was unsuccessful. Secondly, say you have a player that has horrible jitter measurements - is there anything a consumer can do to improve this (3rd party modifications to internal electronics etc?). As RH has mentioned routinely, #s aren't everything - but if jitter turned out to be the source of less-than-ideal sound, what could I do about it?
Version 1.2a HDMI is all that's needed for DSD output without the need for converting to PCM... Anyone with a Receiver with atleast 1.2a HDMI ports is set to go for straight DSD listening without the need to convert to PCM.Cheers.
I have the BDP-83 installed in my system now. I am not using the HDMI, but instead using the 7.1 analog outputs, which according to user guide provide the same output and quality as the HDMI cable does.
On the last point, can anyone confirm that is the case, meaning has anyone tried this via HDMI and via the analogue outputs and compared?
I have switched between the DSD and the PCM setting in the oppo SACD setup menu, and I can hear a distinct improvement in quality when I switch the output to DSD. While I have heard this in most cases, it has not been true of all the discs I have tried. There are a few that to my ears sounded better via the PCM setting. Not sure why that is.
Last point, though not directly related. I have a 500-GB hard drive connected to the oppo as it has a USB port and software for this. The menu navigation of the HDD contents is very limited as are the supported formats (only MP3 (yuk!) and WMA that I can see), but the WMA format is ok. You can output as PCM or bitstream from the digital out. I am using the latter as the digital out is fed into the digital in and DAC of my Cambridge Audio 840C.
While I am going to allow for player burn in for a month before making final judgement, at this point the HDD to Oppo, then digital out to the 840C, does not sound as good as a cheap Iomega Multimedia hard drive that I connected exactly the same way to the 840C.
I am wondering if the digital outputs on the Oppo are an afterthought and perhaps not the best quality? The same music in WMA format fed from the Iomega to 840C sounds much better than from the Oppo to the 840C. I am using the same model of digital cable from both sources, so it is not a cable difference that I am hearing. On the Oppo the music from the digital outs lacks air and ambience and sparkle.
Hey Paul (and anyone else curious),
I just heard back from Oppo's tech support regarding the option to select between DSD and PCM for the SACD setting when using the 7.1 analog outputs, since this seemed impossible (i.e.,DSD would have to be PCM before sending the signal to 7.1analog ouputs); however they told me that if you select DSD then it directly converts to analog without the PCM conversion which is great news (see Harley's comments on this issue above). If you choose PCM setting then you are adding this (unnecessary) conversion before going to analog out. I'm actually not sure why they even give the option, but whichever it's your choice.
As for your second question, have you tried playing the HDD files through the 7.1 analog outputs? Perhaps that'd be more tolerable. I'm curious what you find out because I really like your idea of using an external HDD as a media source that runs through the Oppo. Second question - are you playing the same WMA files from the external HDD as you've been playing through the Iomega MM HD? Perhaps difference in file quality are involved? Let me know.
Hi David,
Good news on the DSD via the analog outputs. Thanks for checking on that.
Re: the second question, yes I have tried the HDD files via the Oppo analog output, and it does sound not too bad. A little rougher in nature than via the 840C, but tolerable and for most listeners I think very suitable. Perhaps even a little better sounding than I was expecting. However, I am sure most hardcore audiophiles will want to play their files via the digital output to an outboard DAC. As I said earlier, I'll reserve judgement on the Oppo digital outs until the unit has at least a month of burn in and heavy use. I think anything less than 100 hours of burn in is too early to tell.
Re: the WMA files. Yes, I have the same WMA files on both drives, and they do sound better at this stage via the digital outs on the Iomega drive. I have a secondary problem via the Iomega Screenplay drive that makes me not want to give it a full recommendation. Any files that I burn from vinyl to the drive and then split into separate tracks, emit a loud audible pop between the tracks when played back. I notice on their forums that other users have this issue also, but not too many since I think few are using the drive in this fashion. Does not matter if I record as WMA or WAV, although for quality the latter is preferred. Iomega tells me this is an issue with their software and something to do with a frequency change when reading the next track. If you rip a commercially purchased CD to the drive there are no problems. The pop only occurs on music that is recorded to the drive from another source.
So I was hoping the Oppo, having a USB input, would provide me the solution I was looking for so that I did not have to use the Iomega drive. Oppo support has told me they are considering support for other lossless formats such as WAV, but they cannot promise this. If they do, that will make the Oppo a very good (but basic) music server in addition to being a very good universal blu-ray player. If they improve the file menu navigation for the USB source and build in lossless support, they will sell more of these units to audiophiles on a budget. For now I'm happy with the WMA support and will allow for more burn in time to evaluate better, but definitely hoping for more support of lossless formats.
DSD to PCM conversion does defeat the main propose of SACD... It degrades dynamic range, high frequency extention, tonal naturality, etc...
There is no independent DSD decoding engine in any OPPO; downmixing or downconverting to PCM is how they achieve low cost manufacturing.
To enjoy true DSD-SACD sound, nowadays with mid-fi consumer products, there are only SACD players from Sony ES, Denon 5xxxx and 3xxxx, and the top end Marantz.
Sony and Phillips never release the source code of DSD, thereby, there is no true DSD digital output... HDMI 1.3 does not convey pure DSD, it is less compressed PCM than the traditional digital outputs!!!
Being able to read SACD, and truly decoding DSD from SACD are two entirely different stories!!!
As the owner of the OPPO 83, the first thing I tried was to connect the 5.1 analog cables from the OPPO 83 to my Sony P9000es pre amp and the hdmi cable from the OPPO 83 to my PIONEER ELITE VSX 03TX reciever being used as a pre amp, then 5.1 cables from the PIONEER ELITE 03TX to the same Sony P9000es PRE AMP. The analog cables I use are monstercable m950i and monstercable hdmi m1000hd.
After setting all the speaker distances and delays and volume for each channel of the analog outputs for the OPPO 83 then all the same adjustments in the PIONEER ELITE VSX 03TX, it was time to go back and forth to see if I could tell which was best or the one I liked most. In all fairness, the PIONEER ELITE can do a lot of processing to the sound. I used the pass through mode in the PIONEER to keep this as even as possible.The sound of the analog outputs from the OPPO 83 was more smooth than the hdmi making it seem as if the hdmi had a lot more detail. The analog sound seem to have a smoother transition between octaves in balance top to bottom while the hdmi seem to have more separate parts one could pick but the same top to bottom balance one would look for. For some strange reason the hdmi sound seem to have a bit more deep bass and more definition to it than the analog sound. The analog outputs smoothness sound closer to live music while the hdmi output sounds more like a fine studio recording. What I came to is different recordings benefit from the use of each one. Pure SACD recordings sounds best from the analog outputs and dvd-a and converted catalog sacd sound best going through the PIONEER ELITE hdmi. Thats my 2 cents on this subject. By the way the OPPO 83 plays all the small silver disc except hd dvd and it is a wonderful player. If you can get one, get it. The OPPO 83 sound I compared to my Sony DVP 999ES DVD player is really close. Both are wonderful players.
The hdmi output in the OPPO 83 is set to bitstream and the PIONEER ELITE VSX 03TX reads sacd on the display.
MQ - there are numerous devices on the market these days that allow for native DSD output.
The Oppo Blu-ray player and the 980H universal player allow for DSD output across HDMI or direct DSD>Analog conversion to output through the analog outputs. If there wasn't, there would be no difference between outputting DSD or PCM if, as you say, it goes to PCM anyway. There IS a difference, DSD direct usually sounds superior.
Pioneer also have several players that allow for DSD output natively through HDMI. I have used both the Oppo 980H and Pioneer Elite 48AV and they both have native DSD output. The PCM1796 DAC's in my receiver recognize that they are receiving DSD over HDMI and when I select DSD>PCM conversion on the player the receiver changes to read "PCM" instead of DSD. There isn't an in between, it's either DSD or it's 24/88.2 PCM...with the exception of the PS3 which does DSD>PCM conversion at 24/176.4.
There are plenty of receivers as well that support receiving DSD data across HDMI in addition to Sony, Denon and Marantz. Yamaha, Integra, Onkyo, etc., all state whether or not the receiver supports DSD decoding and in addition whether or not it supports direct DSD>Analog conversion when DSD is present.
The statement "truly decoding DSD makes all the difference" doesn't make any sense either. All DSD has to be decoded to be heard. Whether it's kept as DSD or converted to PCM makes the difference. If you can't decode DSD you can't convert it to either analog or PCM so you'd be stuck with a device that makes no sound.
Steve - Which midprice A/V Receiver/s (brands/models) with the capability of receiving DSD via HDMI would you recommend using with the Oppo Blu-ray Player? I'm planning a HT setup with the best quality audio possible within my restrained budget. Since I own quite a few classical music SACD discs I would like to hear these rendered as well as can be. Your advice will really be appreciated, thanks!
Do you know that sony vayo computers pay SACD, and is converted to PCM, because any computer audio card transform digital to analog using PCM ?
And, exits very good chip DAC that use DSD or PCM as input, but have more advantages if use transform digital to analog using PCMmethod instead DSD.
As soon as I can afford it I plan to buy an OPPO universal SE player so that I can hear my classical SACDs in DSD. If I were a financial colossus and bought a far more expensive player there would be the danger that 3D movies might make it obsolete in a couple of years.
Hi Paul,
"However, I am sure most hardcord audiophiles will want to play their files via the digital output to an outboard DAC. As I said earlier, I'll reserve judgement on the Oppo digital outs until the unit has at least a month of burn in and heavy use. I think anything less than 100 hours of burn in is too early to tell." - Paul
Any verdict on the digitial outputs of your BDP-83?
Paul, any verdict on the OPPO BDP-83 digital outputs?
I wonder if anyone else has this general impression about the SACD format. I'm currently using a OPPO BDP-83SE to spin discs. I'm strictly 2 channel for music and home theater. I'm using an older CJ tube amp(MV52) to drive a pair of Mythos STS's. I listen to classical music. After listening to a SACD recording I generally come away with two impressions about the format. The high end usually sounds a little more open and natural vs. the redbook layer and the body of sound produced by the various instruments doesn't sound completely solid. This effect is more pronounced when the player is in DSD direct mode. Does anyone have a similar impression about the SACD format when decoded by this particular player?