This Old System, what would you change out first: Speakers or amplification?
James Mitchell -- Tue, 07/07/2009 - 21:29
I've been listening to the same combination of a Denon DRA-625 receiver and Celestion 100 speakers resting on very solid Chicago iron stands for the past 17 years, and am now seriously working to upgrade my system. I love my Celestions and my old reliable Denon receiver (purchased for $500 in 1989, when $500 meant a lot to me). I especially like the Celestions' great ability to image and create a holographic soundstage, as well as the way they reproduce a solo voice. But they do have their limitations, particularly on big groups and massed sounds (one voice = great, symphonic choir = mushy).
One impetus to upgrade my old reliable system has been my purchase of an Olive Opus No.4 and a Cambridge DAC Magic, which have upped the ante on the quality of sources I can now listen too (i.e., hi-resolution downloads). This has got me thinking. Although even my current meager (but beloved) stereo ensemble is very definitely able to resolve clearly the differences between standard CD and hi resolution material -- which might encourage some to just relax and enjoy the improvements in sound -- there are some remaining sonic issues that have motivated me to upgrade SOMETHING in my system. These are (1) boomy, flabby sounding bass ... and by this, I mean, e.g., plucked bass violin just sounding like an amorphous "whoomp"; (2) tinny-sounding high end, that makes things like cymbals and triangles and sound out of this world, but seems to add a "shine" like an aluminum Christmas tree to the harmonics on most instruments. I also don't like the way the string section sounds through this system on most symphonic recordings.
Anyway, I can't afford to chuck it all and start over, but I could afford to replace either the Celestion 100 speakers or the Denon DRA-625 receiver. With a budget of $2,000 to $3,000, which one would YOU replace first, and with what? One last note, it's a small listening room (10 X 20, with 9' ceilings). Just for a reference point, on the amplification end, I've been looking at the NAD M3. Thanks for your thoughts on this, folks.
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1999 - 2011 NextScreen. All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
I strongly suggest replacing the Denon with a good integrated amp such as the Vincent SV-236 (my first choice) or one from Naim or Simaudio. Doing so will give you the biggest bang for your buck. Don't forget to upgrade your speaker cables also - some Kimber 8TC or Mapleshade Double Helix models will make a world of difference also.
Do you mean the Vincent SV-236 MK II (150W model), or the original (100W model)? I've seen the original used for under $800, which is encouraging, if that's what you meant.
Either one would make you very happy, but if you can find a good used original model then I'd go for that. I'm running the original model and absolutely love it. The only modifications I've made were to replace the stock Chinese tubes with Telefunkens and installed brass tube collars from Mapleshade. There are several good integrated amps out there, but to me the Vincent is the way to go because it offers a tubed pre-amp section and a solid-state amplifier. The best of both worlds!
James in the last 20 years I have had 2 systems that I kept for about 10 years each. And recently started auditioning and upgrading my system. the new stuff now is phenomenally good as technology is light years ahead from 20 years ago. If your budget is $2K to $3K each for Speakers and Amp, you can build a pretty fantastic sytem with that. DONT rush into it and do some research even if you will buy one component at a time. The last few years TAS has had a few issues that build entire systems for you from low to mid range. I think the most expensive one they made was a 5K system for the entire system. I would Highly recommend that you replace your entire system with one of those "recommended systems" which from memory I am guessing were from 1 to 5 K range......I can look it up and let you know if you want. Kimber 8TC and Kimber Hero interconnects are excellent, I have used both. One other way is to purchase last years editors choice awards issue and search there. some products that I have heard at great lengths are B&W, Magnepan, Rotel, NAD, Cambridge audio, Oppo, Wadia i transport, all are good. I would give my highest vote to Magnepans that give lots of technology for very little money BUT they require very careful and powerful amplifier match, and space to breath. The combos they made in TAS recommended systems issue are great and you cant go wrong with it, just go by that IMHO.
James,
I would order the back issue of TAS from September 2008 issue 184 (I think you can even purchase a PDF version to read online). They have made up 7 complete systems with alternatives starting at $700 to $6K for the whole systems. The components match really well as well as tested by experts in the field. I wouldn't be surprised if you replaced your entire system with a $2k or $3K system from this issue that it will out perform your current setup by a huge margin.
If your total upgrade budget is $2k to $3k, I recommend getting new speakers and an integrated amplifier. The PSB Synchony 2B or Paradigm S1 Signature (both are priced at $1500 the pair) are excellent choices. They will give you what you like about the Celestion but with much greater fidelity.
The Vincent SV-236 that someone mentioned is a great integrated, as are the Naim Nait 5i and the Cambridge 840 (the latter has quite a bit more power: 120Wpc vs. 50Wpc in the Naim).
Replacing just the receiver or speakers will improve the sound, but not to the same degree as replacing both. Today's products are considerably better than those of 20 years ago, particularly loudspeakers.
Thanks; I always like being told to buy more stuff for the same money. (Has anyone ever told you, you are an enabler?). But seriously, a question; which Cambridge 840 are you recommending -- the current, 840AV2 (retailing at around $1,600) or the model 840A it replaced, which folks like AudioAdvisor are selling for about $900? Thanks - Jim
Many here have pointed out that replacements are in order. I agree, but have a couple of other options. If you are handy, DIY stuff (kits) can give you a lot of bang for the buck. Regarding power, that is relative...if you have super efficient single driver loudspeakers , then the need for a large integrated amplifier may not exist. Amps are tougher than speakers to DIY , so you may consider building a pair of loudspeakers, but buying the amp. Also there are excellent high power digital amps that have been well reviewed (whether in TAS or not...). I guess the first question (one I often ask) is: what are your listening tastes and how large is the space you generally listen in?
I've made my bed on the amplifier; I bought a Cambridge 840A V2 at a bargain price ($1200) and am looking forward to replacing the old Denon receiver with it in a couple of days. So, that leaves the speakers. Given the huge break I got on the price of the amp, I'm feeling flush and could probably edge the price up a bit on the speakers. In any event, I'd like to ask folks' opinion about electrostatics. I've always liked the imaging, as well as the basic coolness factor, of this design, but ultimately am seeking the best sound. Would I be barking up the wrong tree to look at Martin Logan or other electrostatics? There are scores of good deals on used ML speakers out there. I am beginning to think I should start spending more time at Audio Consultants or one of the other stores here in Chicago, and do some of my own research, but I would welcome whatever advice folks here could offer on my next step. Thanks - Jim
You should consider the advantages and disadvantages of electrostats (wonderfully articulated by Jonathan Valin in his review of the MartinLogan CLX in the February, 2009 issue) and then listen for yourself before deciding.
Spending time at a dealer is a great idea, and Audio Consultants is one of the country's best retailers.
So, end of story, happily ever after. I wound up buying a pair of PSB Synchrony 2's (the towers, not the 2B) from Saturday Audio Exchange here in Chicago. Couldn't have done better; a whole world of sound (mostly at the lower end of the frequency spectrum) has been opened up. Here's one very enthusiastic vote for a Cambridge 840A v2 driving the PSB Synchrony 2 loudspeakers. Beats the heck out of my old system, which by the way is now set up in a back room for listening when my wife needs the living room for other purposes. Thanks to all who helped out here; most important, thanks to RH for reminding me that you need to LISTEN to speakers before you buy them. I was very close to buying a pair of PSB Imagine T speakers until I heard them at Saturday Audio, played against the Synchrony 2's with the same music; there was no real comparison with respect to things like tympani and the sound of the string section, and it was worth the extra $1,000 or so to know that I bought the better speaker, one I can live with for some time. Those Imagine T's are pretty good, but I didn't think they were any better at all than my old Celestion Model 100s, especially with the strings and the sloppy, muffled bass ... deeper, but sloppy. Best comparison: tympani on the Reference Recordings Firebird Suite Finale, sounded completely "you are there" and raised actual goosebumps on my arms through the Synchrony 2's; sounded like muffled cannon shots through the Imagine T's.
Thanks for the follow-up. I'm delighted that you ended up with a system you like and that we were able to help.