My findings on Magico V2.....what now?
jtein -- Tue, 02/02/2010 - 10:23
Last week I drove 250km to audition the Magico V2. The V2's were driven by the awesome Soulution 720 preamp and 710 power amp. The source used was a Soulution 745 disc player. Needless to say, the sound was GREAT.....but I sat there in the auditioning chair like a rock. To my surprise, I found myself unmoved and unstirred. By the 4th CD, I started to get bored. I felt almost none of the wonderful emotions I got when I auditioned the Avantgarde Uno G2 driven by Audio Note Meishu SET amp.
Should this experience be conclusive and enough for me to make my decision to go for the Avantgarde? Should I further explore the V2 with other amps? Unfortunately the Magico dealer (the only one in my country) that I visited carries only a couple of brands of amps (which are not in my shortlist) so it's impossible for me to listen to the V2 with the ones I'm interested in - Pass XA.5 series or Spectral.
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Mr. Sircom,
What makes you think Magico is agonizing over this? I would not be surprized one bit if this was all deliberately orchestrated.
This is brilliant marketing: Create a "great", price no object speaker - the M5. Send it to a respected audio expert who raves about it on the web. Get a great review for further awareness. Create a speaker at half the price that is near that performance, that more audiophiles can actually afford. (Yes it's $50K, which is a few fancy trips, a nice car, or a modest home remodel job. But not the $100K everyone thinks is the absolute "best" - and look what a bargain it is next to the $100K speaker. This is the oldest suit selling trick in the world!). Then, stage an "uncertain" demo at CES to get people talking about you for months while your production is backed up (everyone wants it!). They sure know how to create a buzz. Superb case study on the use of psychological influence techniques.
Machiavelli is alive and well (and there is nothing wrong with it)!
Very powerful tube amps....hmmm.....should I give the V2 another go? To put things in perspective, a V2 in my country costs RM65,000.00 at the current exchange rate. A V3 will cost me RM91k. To further put things in perspective, a Big Mac costs $6.00 in the US and a Big Mac costs RM6.00 in my country. If only I live in the US of A, I would have snapped up the M5 without batting an eyelid. *Sigh*
GUYS,
it seems ALON gets berated for expensive products but now he makes an effort to give top value withthe Q-line i don't hear the naysayers coming out and giving the company any high-fives--------i wish magico all the best...maybe Dave Wilson, etc can learn a thing or two from this new company
but magico and alan wolf got lost in their own success story...
Judging from the blogs and from what my Magico dealer is telling me is a back log of an entire production year on the Q, some, apparently, are still very excited. I can't wait to hear it myself, and I have to say that to me, it looks like the most exciting product Magico has made for consumer thus far. BTW, the local Wilson dealer has a Sasha in stock. Not sure what it means, but either the demand is low, or Wilson capacity is really high.
"..but magico and alan wolf got lost in their own success story"
" I would not be surprized one bit if this was all deliberately orchestrated."
Come on guys, make up your mind! I must say, brilliant marketing or not, these guys usully deliver. I can't wait to hear these.
back log of 2 year in Q5...
what difference does it make...M5 was sold out for 1.5 years of production before it came out...alon and co claimed that they were tweaking the tweeeter for some time hence the delay...
the bottomline is this...I reckon it will be agreat speaker like most of magico speakers..i cant wait to hear it...but the problem is that once we were able to hear Q5...most likely they will introduce R5 6 months after Q5 comes out...
at the end of the day its all marketing...back in 1996 as Mr Sircom can recall, in london restaurants were marketing plain chicken as "corn fed chicken" as if it makes a difference...all of a sudden wild pigeon was delicassy and next thing we know people were hunting pigeons in trafalgar square..
the fact of the matter is....M5 has 3000 parts and a lot of research going into the speakers hence the price tag of 90k...
how many pieces are there in a brand new Mercedes SL 500 dare i ask....how much research oges into it? it sells for the same amount of money as the M5 in the states...common give me a break...
the price justification methods are just plain comical at best...Q5 is labelled as as good as M5 and half the price? M5 is dead before it makes and kills some of the wilson products...
lets admit it..what Alon and the co are doing is simply wrong for the establishment of the brand
Not following your logic Nazo. I just ordered the Q5. Will be delivered by summer. As a Mini 2 owner, I have been waiting for a full-range loudspeaker form Magico, at a price I can afford, for almost 4 years now. Magico had a huge gap between its $30K plus Mini and the $89K M5. It was only logical for them to fill this gap. I personally, could not buy the M5 but I can buy the Q5. I believe that they will be all that I am hoping they will. I do not really care if they are as good or better or not quite the M5. I can't buy the M5. My distributor is thrilled to have a full-range loudspeaker from Magico at $54K.
Errm Fred....isn't the Magico V3 a full range speaker already?
I suppose... But for that matter, the Mini is pretty full range as well. BUT I did hear, on the M5, what these 2 9" can do.
BTW, just saw this: http://www.magico.net/magicoq/magicoq01.php I don't think I seen it before, and yes, I am excited!
To answer original question:
Well-designed SET amp will always bring an emotional response you will not get in other amps, in my experience. I always thought speakers were the most significant part of the system until years ago at Las Vegas Show I heard good SET with average speakers and portable CD player. I was blown away with the difference when well known and expensive solid state amp was substituted. Everything was fine when you analyze it, but no life in ss.
Measurements, reviews can tell you all kinds of stuff, but follow your emotional response, not reviewers; you'll spend daily listening to your rig.
As for me, after years of experimentation and changes in system, I purchased Art Audio Adagio (which to my ears is by far the best amp in a relatively "normal" price category; I believe they are a bit over 20k now) and Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario. That's a music match made in heaven. I never looked back and itch for upgrades subsided. I had visited numerous shows and heard in many other situations the best of the best, but in a very few other setups I have experienced as similar emotional response as with Sonus Faber/Art Audio Adagio combo. I'm actually surprised that Art Audio is not a better known company, they must be the best kept secret in high end audio. If you buy Magico, combine it with SET like Adagio, and you'll see how they'll jump to life.
This thread has gotten ridiculous. Why is there so much skepticism and closed minded opinions in the high end industry? No one is making you buy anything. Yes, Magico is expensive but this is a free market. If people are willing to pay high prices for anything, let them. Regardless of whether or not the product is worth that much to you.
The fact that this thread has gone on so long over nothing is absurd. I'm ashamed that I've actually read through it all. The thing is, if you don't like the way a product sounds, just don't buy it. Don't badmouth something for the sake of starting an argument. Somebody else may have a completely different opinion on what they want their system to sound like. The point of this hobby is finding something that you can sit down and enjoy which is why auditioning products is so important. Everyone just needs to relax a little bit and keep an open mind.
Hehe, rich.maltz, it's because I mentioned that "magic" word that this thread has gotten ridiculous. I bet that if it had been any other product, this thread would have gotten 10 replies at the most. In my original post, I only wanted to know whether I should further pursue the V2 with other amps than the Soulution. It seems that my less than favorable comments of the V2 had provoked the hornets' nest. I noticed that this happened not only in this forum but in the Audiogon forum as well where someone else (not me) started a thread in respect of that "magic" word, a certain individual (who has posted extensively and agressively in this thread) became vexed and agitated in that thread.
I went back to listen to V2 at my local dealer today. Things improved quite a bit as the speakers have more time to break in. However, overall, my impression is that they are good in many ways but I am not impressed enough with it to think of upgrading my speakers (Usher Be-20, Usher over here costs significantly less than in the US). Over here my Usher is about 2/3 the price of V2 and a bit less than 1/2 the price of V3. If I have the money, I would not hesitate to get V3 at all. The V2 was on demo with Krell electronics/MIT Magnum cables. I heard V3 with the same electronics and also with Spectral electronics in the same room previously.
The V2 at the dealer has been there for 4 months so I think it was well broken in. Perhaps I'll give it one more shot. But this time I'll bring my own electronics along but the thought of lugging along my 40 lb amp and 52lb Esoteric X-03 SE is rather daunting. Plus I'll need to ask the dealer remove his home-made cables and power conditioner and let me use my own cables which is another daunting prospect given how proud he is of his stuff.
Sorry. It seems the comments were replies to a user that was identified (perhaps incorrectly) as a spambot. Our flood control works on repeated expressions from the same poster. Replies were caught in the crossfire, because if the main comment is deleted, our site also deletes all replies to that comment.
I think the same thing has happened at Audio Asylum, because that same post repeated again and again and again has been taken down.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
I believe AudiogoN has also removed the posts. Not surprising, given the annonymous nature of the accusation, and the attribution to Mr Wolf being unsubstantiated, surely that borders on libelous. But the broader issue, whether the posters identified were part of a broader vendor marketing effort, is troublesome, the content of the postings is at least consistent with such an hypothesis. I would imagine that this would also be troubling to avguide. Personally, I think avguide should require that all posters have accounts, have a policy that requires vendors or members of the trade to identify themselves as such, investigate if there is an appearance of abuse, and revoke accounts if abuse is verified.
-- Daniel
Alan is right, in part. I removed the posts because some were spammed. I removed others because they are in clear violation of our Community Guidelines:
http://www.avguide.com/content/community-guidelines
I could delete a lot more based on these, so I'd ask those truly interested in making this a good community to read them and try to abide by them. The big thing that happened here, which is mostly bright line stuff for us, is that users were directly attacking other users. The guidelines stipulate that bad user behavior be reported, not attacked in the forums or comments.
Daniel's suggestion is one we're evaluating. Registration, of course, isn't bulletproof, but with the right limitations it would help. Unfortunately, it also squeezes out some new users (we dedicated ourselves at the outset to being welcoming to new users and hopefully folks new to these hobbies). But at this point, I believe (and I think the bosses are coming around) that the ugliness of those not invested in making this a good place drives away more newbies than registration would.
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
Yeah, sorry... it's your avatar. Makes me think you are a robot, rather than a real person. In part because I live in a cartoon universe.
I'm sorry for any 0101110001001010101011111000101010010101 that may have caused.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
I am all for login requirements to post, and you should also consider exposing the IP address as audioasylum does
Gadgetman, I'm relatively a new user of this forum, having only registered a couple of months ago or thereabouts. I'm also relatively new to high-end audio and am fascinated by it. I love music and components that will enhance my love for it. I think only 20% of all the posts in this thread have answered my original post. The other 80% have been a crusade defending Magico products and anything ancillary thereto. Which is really off-putting to a new user like me.
You said: "(we have dedicated ourselves at the outset to being welcoming to new users and hopefully folks new to these hobbies). But at this point, I believe (and I think the bosses are coming around) that the ugliness of those not invested in making this a good place drives away more newbies than registration would."
Are you not concerned that the attitude adopted by Ricardo Meserri and Roy Pan is driving a new user like me away? I find it very rude that these people are using my thread to rally their products and vilify other products without even contributing an answer to my original question. It's like I'm invisible. Isn't this a violation of your Community Guidelines, albeit indirectly? Right now, I'm made to feel unwelcome by the remarks of Ricardo and Roy Pan. I would like to see how dedicated you guys at AVguide are in "being welcoming to new users and hopefully folks new to these hobbies."
Indeed, I (we) are concerned that thread hijackers drive folks like you away. And, to your point, it is a direct violation of the Community Guidelines.
There is, of course, a balance here. Sometimes what seems like hijacking turns out to be an interesting dialog on a relevant, if narrow, part of the broad issues originally raised. So, I've tried to take a light hand to the twists and turns of most threads (that and I have many other duties so I can't monitor every thread in detail).
But, since this is your thread in a way, I'd be interested in what would improve it for you?
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I do see your point that what seems like hijacking can turn out to be a beneficial and useful discourse. But it's all in the tone and manner in which the thread in 'hijacked'. The OP shouldn't be made to feel that he's become invisible and of no consequence. I belong to an auto forum where I don't feel like it's a forum but more like a family. We 'hijack' one another's threads but it's all done in fun and good-naturedly. We would meet up in person over meals, admire one another's ride, and go on convoys. We have a section where newbies introduce themselves and are warmly welcomed by the rest. Questions by newbies are treated with kid's gloves and not with a know-it-all attitude. They are immediately invited to take part in group outings so that they can feel belonged as soon as possible. If you can implement this kind of culture here, it'd be wonderful. Of course I'm aware of the geographical limitations so group outings and meet-ups are probably not possible.
As far as content is concerned, Mr Sircom has more or less adequately replied my questions. The 1st reply to my original question by anonymous_stat_lover was pretty enlightening. So were the responses by Slickensmooth, danielaparker, rajkoo and a few more others (can't remember their names). I'm not looking for people to agree with me but I would appreciate responses that would help me find a solution to my audio needs in a constructive manner. Of course, nothing can take the place of auditioning the equipment for myself. Thanks for listening.
Below is the post I placed on Audiogon, and been trying to post here for couple of days, apparently, contrary to some belief, the spam filter dose work against Magico fans as well.
Sorry, I was gone for a few days, but I am back, and there is a lot to catch-on-to. After all “John Dow” had accused me as a troll on over 50 posts all over the net (seems to be all removed now by moderators). Someone apparently is very angry. A "source of a source" ??
It is quite amusing/disturbing that some will consider it true to what seems to me a vicious attack by someone with clear agendas. Let the troll accuse the troll...
For the record, I am a pro-Magico troll, never hidden it, other than owning their products, I have no affiliation to them whatsoever.
Yes It may be odd that I do not talk about electronics or CD players much but speakers are my thing. I have also been a DIY speaker freak for as long as I remember. I suppose that if I was "clever", like I am sure Mr. Wolf is, I would talk occasionally about other things so to build a real decoy. But I do not care about other things and have nothing to hide. I own the same Spectral gear for almost 10 years now. Never cared to talk about it, mainly since my understanding of electronics is somewhat limited and I could not quite explain to any of you why I like it and not others. I understand speakers and I do like to talk about them, especially good ones, and try to explain why most are not. What is wrong with that? I enjoy these vocal debate, even though, I do not think I had ever manage to change anyone mind about their “preferences”. I usually piss people off. I do not see how I am helping Magico much, on the contrary, but that is not my job, I already showed my support by buying their products. I try to be reasonable in all my posts and explain why I like what I like, and not just talk about my "feeling", or show photos of my system. For those who find it annoying, please do not read my posts. I am not here to be nice or to make friends. I have opinions and I like to debate them. That is all. Now I am sure there will be more allegations and slandering, we all have agendas, after all this is a very "emotional" hobby. This will be my last post on the subject. I will, indeed, continue to rally Magico, until something better comes along.
I removed the posts because they were posted multiple times.
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
Your post doesn't make any sense to me - you claim to be "a DIY speaker freak for as long as I remember", but I couldn't find any post of yours on any DIY subject on any forum. Even if you dig up such a post from somewhere, it is very rare. Why is that?
What possible reason would there be for you to only talk about magico and nothing that relates to your DIY hobby? Also, why would you take every opportunity to attack magico-competitors like wilson, yg acoustic, sonus faber et al if you "have no affiliation" with magico like you claim? If there is a reason, then I missed it.
Oh, Johnny! Why do you take every opportunity, in violation of the guidelines, to attack Roy? Why do you not register? Why do you change your name? Why when I delete your attacks do you persist?
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
Guidelines you are violating (you're not alone, but it doesn't change the facts of your posts):
Don't hijack threads
Stick to the topic at hand. Don't kill the dialog on an original post, especially to float your pet issue.
Don't forget the Golden Rule
Don't hate, don't threaten, don't call people names, don't be angry and don't drown yourself in a sludgy cynical pool of death sludge. If someone is mis-behaving, report it to us, don't attack them. Enough said.
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
I would ask the dealer to lug the V2 to your house. It's nonsense that you have to take all your stuff to him when he is the one who should be wanting to make a sale. Even if you do lug everything to him, the most important factor, the room/speaker interface, is left behind.
I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a home demo when buying an expensive piece of equipment. If the dealer refuses, I would write to the manufacturer and complain.
Unfortunately, home demo is the exception rather than the norm in my country. Furthermore, I very much doubt that the dealer would travel 250km to my place for a home demo. Sad, but true.
why would they risk losing the 2 page Magico ad in every issue?
To be honest, I'm surprised this one hasn't been removed, if it was my site, I would, makes me suspect that kong123 must also have a 2 page ad ...
I've tried, as explained many times, to be very conservative about removing posts. Kong doesn't say anything that obviously violates the guidelines. I'm not sure who "they" are or what he's talking about. There's no guideline (yet) for posting coherent thoughts (or appropriate use of the "Reply" button).
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge