My findings on Magico V2.....what now?
jtein -- Tue, 02/02/2010 - 10:23
Last week I drove 250km to audition the Magico V2. The V2's were driven by the awesome Soulution 720 preamp and 710 power amp. The source used was a Soulution 745 disc player. Needless to say, the sound was GREAT.....but I sat there in the auditioning chair like a rock. To my surprise, I found myself unmoved and unstirred. By the 4th CD, I started to get bored. I felt almost none of the wonderful emotions I got when I auditioned the Avantgarde Uno G2 driven by Audio Note Meishu SET amp.
Should this experience be conclusive and enough for me to make my decision to go for the Avantgarde? Should I further explore the V2 with other amps? Unfortunately the Magico dealer (the only one in my country) that I visited carries only a couple of brands of amps (which are not in my shortlist) so it's impossible for me to listen to the V2 with the ones I'm interested in - Pass XA.5 series or Spectral.
You are going to be dropping some big bucks there. Personally, I would do my due dilligence and listen to the contenders with a variety of amps. Mr. Valin describes Soulution as "transparent" to sources. Is this your cup of tea? Maybe not if you find the speaker unemotional.
One option may be to bring your amp there or borrow the amp you want from a dealer and bring it to the speaker dealer. The good news is you know what you like with the Avantgarde.
Great decision making is about looking for ways to prove your intuition wrong. Unfortunately, that involves hauling a lot of heavy equipment. Personally, I know I would shoot myself if I spent near $20K on a speaker and then found another speaker that is better.
Good Luck !
ITEIN,
goes back to what JV was referring to when he talked about different schools of music tastes.
My RULE: go with what your heart and head likes
Not surprising, and you shouldn't feel at all guilty. The electronics are fine, you just don't care for the speakers. That's why there are many choices.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ (773) 809-HIFI
"The electronics are fine, you just don't care for the speakers."
Hown do you know?
I think it is the other way around...
Could be, but I'll bet not.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ (773) 809-HIFI
Brian,
Leave out personal subjectivity/agendas here, both on paper, and to my and many others ears, the V2 are phenomenal. Do not know much about the Soulution, but I can't see how you would be so certain. Unless, of course, you are a Soulution dealer...
I too was a bit underwhelm by V2 that my local dealer just got in. the setup was in the same room with same electronics where I heard V3 many times over the past year. What I love about the V3 the most was the rich, full midrange that was just so amazing on vocal and piano music. It just was not there in V2. However, the speakers really did not have much time to break in yet so I am going to wait a while longer before giving V2 another listen.
Ricardo, I am not a Soulution dealer, so no self promotion. If you like the V2, cool, but like Suteetat I have found them less than stellar while the V3 can be very good.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ (773) 809-HIFI
I am a big Magico fan and a V3 owner. While I love the V3 and yes, it is a better speaker then the V2 (It should for 50% more money), I thought that the V2 with the CAT electronics at last year CES was the best sound at the show. Even better, in many aspects, then the Soulution M5 combo.
I think I mentioned in a response to a previous post of yours that I had a similar experience. I listened to the Magico V2's with the Mark Levinson 512 and the 532, and, I mean it was excellent, but somehow I couldn't relate. My reference point was the Amati Anniversarios with Boulder 865 and Esoteric source, which I enjoyed much more, and ended up buying. I fully appreciate that the Magicos have gotten excellent reviews, but in the end it comes down to personal taste.
-- Daniel
"but in the end it comes down to personal taste"
Personal taste? Why would anyone prefer a flawed product over a proper one? I am sorry, but there will be nothing empirical to preferring an Amati over a V2. If it is all about "personal taste", why do we even bother to converse? You get 10 audiophiles in a room and you will get 10 different opinion. Yet, no one with a Mazda, will claim he prefers it to a Porsche. Tell us why, objectively, you would prefer the Amati. Look at JA finding. You have as much noise coming out of the port at 1K as actual output. Why would anyone like that? I can go on but I hope you get my point. Sorry for my bluntness. Nothing personal.
The problem is there is no 'proper product' - all products are ultimately flawed in one aspect or another. How the company balances those flaws out, and how those balances relate to your own tastes and requirements, reflects 'personal taste'.
This is not like comparing a Mazda to a Porsche, it's like comparing a Porsche to another Porsche. You are an excellent driver who wants to sprint down the Autobahn at warp speed - you need a 911. You want a more day-to-day version of the same that doesn't demand the same concentration, at the expense of the sheer power of the 911 - you need a Cayman. You want the rest of the family to have the same experience - you need a Cayenne. You want the same while being driven to work by your chauffeur - you need a Panamera. Each 'proper' solution is 'flawed' in other respects.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Being less than honest, are we Ricardo ? As a reader of TAS, I would assume you would pay more attention to the review rather than the measurements. If I remember correctly, JA said that the Amatis are as good as speakers get. He also reviewd the V3's, and while he loved them, his comments about that speaker were not as laudatory as his comments on the Amatis.
Food for thought ?
YOU'RE DEAD ON! it is about personal taste. It's like electrostat, planar vs dynamic, box, no box, processed, no process, solid state vs tube. This manufacturer vs. that manufacturer. It's like anything else, best quarterback, best player that sort of stuff. It's personal taste. It's like when I used to be a home theater installer in the 90's! The company I worked for liked NHT'S, energy loudspeakers and they were always trying to get people buy THEIR taste. Those boxed speakers didn't sound good to me whatsover. They even had the newer infinity's the mass production type. Didn't like them either. The vintage high end infinity was the one's I liked. I prefer electrostats, planars and ohm cls designs myself over typical conventional box design except on subwoofer designs. It's all about personal taste I AGREE!
Reviewers are paid to extend those one-word impressions into pages of text. But those one-word impressions count, especially when forming ideas about types of products, rather than individual products.
Your 'bored' impression about the Soulution/Magico system coupled with the 'emotional' impression you get about the Audio Note/Avantgarde system makes me feel that you would struggle to find any cone-and-dome speaker system to fit your particular bill. The other reaction is three or four discs into the tubes+horns system is 'coloration' where the alternative is 'musical'; in which case, you would likely end up with a loudspeaker system like the Magico. You could try a panel speaker system as well, but I suspect you'd find it 'sterile' instead of 'accurate'
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Jtein, I haven't heard the Magico V2's but the V3's/ Spectral/ MIT were anything but boring. My dealer had to make me stop as I completely forgot about time and it was really addictive. I don't know in what kind of room you've listened to that setup and/or if it was properly set up.
I have heard the Solution setup as you speak of with the V3's and it's REALLY transparent. Magico speaker boxes have very very little coloration so they're also transparent. I suspect too much transparency might not be your thing Jtein. If that's true then Magico speakers might not be your cup of tea. Maybe try Avalon Indra's or Eidolon Diamonds. They're more 3D and holographic but the speaker boxes 'add a little bit of their own imagination to it'. Some people prefer that while others do not.
I wouldn't pay 25k for speakers because some well known reviewer says it's the best speaker he's heard. In the end you have to live with it.
Give the Avalons a chance (because I think you might like 'em) and do what you feel best by.
Silence is Music
Whoa! This is so cool! Never expected my thread to elicit so many responses here in TAS forum, let alone Mr Sircom's! It seems that everytime Magico is the subject of a thread in various forums, it tends to get livelier. Wonder why......
Anyway, in reply to Mr Sircom's statement that I "would struggle to find any cone-and-dome speaker system to fit your particular bill," my present system consists of a pair of cone-and-dome speakers (the PMC FB1i's) driven by Primare I30 integrated amp with Esoteric X-03 SE as the source which I don't get bored with like I did with the Magico/Soulution combo. So perhaps a Pass Labs XA.5 series driving the Magicos might help?
Hey SnS, I was actually contemplating the Avalon.......you read my mind! But I don't think there's an Avalon dealer in my country.
I'm tempted to buy blind because auditioning electronics in my country is as good as buying blind. For example, if I want to listen to Thiel speakers, I'll have to visit a different dealer from the Magico dealer which means I'll be listening to the Thiels with a different set of electronics. Should I want to audition Sonus Fabers, I'll need to visit yet another dealer with yet another different set of electronics. Heck, maybe I'll just get my stuff from Audiogon!
The more info you give, the closer you get to the right result. It's like a differential diagnosis, only without the proctological examination.
Your enjoyment of the Esoteric/Primare/PMC system adds a lot to the mix. What do you think is common thread to this system and the Audio Note/Avantgarde system? Also, what do you think works in these systems that doesn't in the one you heard?
My gut feeling (and it's a large gut) is that you are probably going to find the speaker you like at the more 'exciting' end of the spectrum, rather than the 'beautiful' part. I'd say this means SF Amatis and Avalons - good though they are - will not do anything for you.
Changing amps on the Magicos might help (I tend to prefer them with something that has a bit more 'grunt' than the very neutral Soulutions - like Krell - so Pass Labs is a good option). Another lesser known (at this time) option is the Devialet D-Premier daclifier (it doesn't sit comfortably in traditional audio categories - it's sort of 'Audiophile 2.0'). I suggest a rematch with different electronics.
Rather than limit the options, I'm going to add another one or two. My one would be the Wilson Sophia II (the FB1i is like a teeny-tiny version of this) or the Reference 3a Grand Veena, which is a popular choice round these parts.
Of course, perhaps the best answer is the obvious one... what you need is a bigger set of PMC speakers and bigger amps to drive them.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Interesting, I've been wondering if my own (no doubt in Ricardo's eyes deplorable) preferences are consistent, could I ask if you could comment based on the following reactions:
Likes: PS Synchrony One, Sonus Faber Cremona One, Sonus Faber Elipsa, Neeper Perfection One
Loves: Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario
Appreciates but ultimately unmoved by: Magico V2,
Kind of indifferent to: Elac FS-247, Monitor Audio PL300, Focal Electra 1027 Be
Really indifferent to: Spendor S8E, Spendor S9E
I would also ask as to others I might like based on these preferences, but having bought the Amatis, it's probably best not to know!
Thanks,
Daniel
I think that list reads incredibly consistent. The speakers you like and love all have a clarity or even 'beauty' of midrange (even at the expense of frequency extremes). Those you don't are often praised for their frequency extension, and it's possible that detracts from the midrange for you.
The possible odd one out is your indifference toward Spendor, because the brand's speakers are also often praised for their midrange. Or perhaps not; the thin-walled British sound works to make the midrange 'neutral' and could represent a polar opposite to the 'enticing' Sonus faber sound.
I'm trying to find a way of identifying these traits in equipment design an matching them to the tastes in individuals. People have tried the first, like the 'sonic circle' idea proposed by SonicFlare.com (although that site seems not to be doing anything new and went down a peculiar audio-as-seduction-tool avenue), but I don't know if you can match it to individuals with any confidence yet.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Here's more information, Mr Plus. I used to have the Primare CD31/I30 combo driving the PMC FB1i's. I found the system a little too laid back for me. Two weeks ago I sold my CD31 cdp and bought the Esoteric X-03 SE. The results were immediate. Even without the Esoteric having run-in, the vocals are so much more fleshed out and palpable. The resolution and soundstage improved significantly. I think the common thread of my current system with the Avantgarde/Audio Note system is the palpability of vocals and the musicality. It just got much more involving.
Which was not the case with the Magico/Soulution. The vocals sounded rather thin. The piano played by T. Monk (Live at the IT Club) sounded hard. I couldn't hear the resonance/character of the piano that Monk used which I actually heard from the Avantgarde/Audio Note system. I have to add that both the Magico and Soulution have been well run-in.
Mr Plus
I will have to strongly disagree with you. There are compromises and there are flaws. The Amati set of measurements clearly indicates a "less than adequate" technical soundness. I can't imagine a speaker like that coming out from a company that has basic technical/engineering team designing products. Look at how both port output and nasty woofers break-ups are contributing to major suck-up in the midrange. Now it is still possible that some would find that sound appealing, but it will be hard to astutely support that notion. You will not see these kind of major flaws in products that are design by speaker designers. Companies like PSB, Revel and Magico will not put such a contraption out. It is rather a shame that reviewers like yourself are not willing to point these issues to the general public. I am sure that is the Amati was a car, it would not go very far and will clearly be unsafe to drive.
I can't really comment on the Amati (not having reviewed it), but it seems that JA did both listening and measurement, and likes the sound. I would assume that as we spend most of our time listening to loudspeakers and not measuring them, that's important.
Looking at the review, he mentions such limitations, but also says this is a good sounding loudspeaker. What is so wrong with this? Should we ignore our own listening because the measurements say something is bad when we think differently? If so, should we apply the same rubric to tube amps and turntables, because they do not measure as well as the alternatives?
Sometimes, the right things happen for the wrong reasons. Deal with it.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Hi Jtein,
Like I said in your other thread elsewhere, I'm rather suspicious of that 'full home brew' cabling+conditioner that particular dealer connected the V2+Soulution combo with during your audition (Hi-Fi Blog Avenue). As I have also mentioned, speaking from personal experiences--with equips as neutrally transparent as those, a 'single' cable can make or break the resulting sound (even more so when used throughout). I may be wrong, but I have this strong gut feeling (depending on your taste) swapping to cables such as MIT, Tara, Kubala or Siltech might well reverse most negative impressions you have had during your first audition, ie. unbored you---if that is possible at all.
I got your point bvdiman1. Anyway, I'm not looking to get the Soulution stuff as they are beyong my budget. I went to audition the Magico V2 specifically because I thought, from reading reviews, it could give me the kind of sound I was looking for. They just happened to be partnered with the Soulution. So there's no point swapping cables since I'm not interested in the Soulution. There's also no way that I can audition the V2 with other amps. What a shame.
Go for a vacation and audition over there heheheh. 2-3k is a joke for something that expensive. But if you're really in love with the Avantgardes I'd go for them. Could be the last speaker you'll ever need to buy. As for me I'm aiming at the V3's or Avalon Eidolon Diamonds. But I'm changing my amps, cables and source first.
M5's would be my dream speaker. But unfortunately I've never had luck with the lottery hehehe
Silence is Music
Mr. Sircom,
I'm not trying to knock on your opinion. Just want to note that over here in the Netherlands there's been a lot of Demo's with the Magico Speakers (M5, V3, V2, Mini 2) and most of them were done with Pass amplifaction. Most of the highend dealers were not convinced though. Everyone seems to agree that Spectral brings the best out of the Magico speakers and so does Solution. They really 'open up' the Magico speakers. These were some of the most heard opinions and I have to agree as I heard Pass and Spectral side by side driving a pair of V3's.
Silence is Music
That's very possible. Unfortunately I've not had a chance to evaluate the Magico products with Spectral. I have heard the Soulution/Magico package and heard good things from it. I'm not sure why the OP should find it boring; even if the room was 'off', you tend to warm to a speaker under those settings as you acclimatize, not find it less exciting over time.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
The room was definitely not "off" because the dealer does know his stuff. That's exactly the point, instead of acclimatizing to the system, I found myself getting more bored by the minute. Which really surprised me. Perhaps the reason is per what I mentioned in my reply to your suggestions in the above post. The vocals were rather thin and the instruments sounded hard. I just couldn't get into the music, even with my favourite CDs. As we sat there listening, the dealer pointed out to me how fluid and organic the sound was. I was like, "What? I thought I'm hearing the opposite of liquid and organic!"
Anyway, where do I go from here? There's no way I can get to audition the Wilson Sophia 2 an the Reference 3a Grand Veena you mentioned because no dealers are carrying them in my country. And the Avalon either. Woe is me!
I'd say no amount of box-swapping will make the Magico work for you. It sounds as if the Avantgarde is the better prospect. I might be wrong about the Avalons though, and might work well too (thin and hard instrument sounds are not something you could level at the Avalons). This might be a happy medium.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Ok Alan, I got you. As for the Avantgarde, I could wish the soundstage could be wider. It sounded a little closed in. Could be due to the demo room though. Besides a SET amp, what other amp would you suggest that would go well with the Avantgarde?
I'd like to check out the Avalons too if I can. Again, what amps would go well with the Avalons? How about the c-j ET2/LP66S combo? I see that their sensitivity rating is a lowish 87db with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms. This would mean they require quite a lot of power?
Avantgardes - try DarTZeel or David Berning (DB has a new stereo amp due soon, which is said to be remarkable). You could also try Devialet D-Premier. I suspect of these, the DarTZeel would be the combo you'd be most happy with, but you won't like the cost! The chances are the closed-in sound comes down to the room.
Avalon and c-j do go together well (the two are commonly demonstrated together here in the UK) but I think the weak link could be the LP66S; most of the times I've heard the LP66S used with Avalons, it's been with NP-series Avalons. The new mono versions (LP125M) might be better equipped, power wise.
However, I think the trouble is you are about to start going round and round in circles. This is a recipe for a very broken system. Explain what you didn't like about the Magico sound to the Magico dealer, see what comes up. Go back to the Avantgarde dealer and discuss options. Go listen to the Avalons with the recommendation of the dealer there. Then focus on the one you get the best from and fine tune the decision.
I could end up making a recommendation that involved amplifier from dealer A and loudspeaker from dealer B. This might work wonders, or it might not. If it didn't, do you return the amplifier or the speakers? Or both?
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
If the David Berning stereo amp is anything like his 200-Watt Quadrature Z mono-blocks, it will be worth writing home about!
Mr Plus,
I would like to know when was the last time JA, or any other reviewer for that matter, did not like the sound of whatever they were reviewing? The only real reference point to these reviews are the measurements…
Well, in the past year I've rejected several products that I did not like the sound of. Some of them, I have moved on to reviewers who did like the products and others I have declined to review in the magazine. I'm not the only person to do this. Most of us have a pre-selection process.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
I may have been over-zealous with my forum-cleaning skills.
Daniel wrote:
"Between 1985 and 2009, I read no audio magazines. But before 1985, I recall that the British magazines had negative reviews in every issue, and a manufacturer's response section; I always found the negative reviews and the irrate responses to be the most entertaining part of the magazines. I recall that TAS could also be quite harsh.
But that seems to be gone, the manufacturer's response section seems to be gone, perhaps because there is no longer much in the review to take exception to.
-- Daniel"
My response:
Yes, you are right, for two reasons. First, products have generally improved significantly since the 1980s. A combination of tighter legislation, a greater demand to play in an international field (local buyers will be more forgiving of a poor product made locally) and a smaller, more competitive marketplace has weeded out most of the bad products. As such the number of bad reviews goes down as the number of bad products goes down. That's the good news.
The bad news is more malign. British magazines were far more willing to publish negative reviews in the 1980s and early 1990s. Unfortunately a high-profile court-case (Walker Wingsail Systems vs Yachting World) took care of that. The result (more specifically, the payout) from that case meant calls for comments for manufacturers either began "Thank you for the wonderful review" or "My client requests that you cease and desist..." and nothing in between. Because the payout was so vast in this court case (the equivalent to $5m damages and $2.5m legal costs in today's money), some small companies would sue on review and legal departments would settle out of court rather than risk multi-million dollar settlements.
The payout to Walker Wingsail Systems was so important in magazine circles that it's 'the shot heard round the world', even to those who have no knowledge of the court case. Because we have so, so many magazines in the UK on any topic (no other country has as much newsstand trade, which is why we still have seven magazines dedicated to audio and home theater) the defanging of those UK magazines started a trend that was followed worldwide.
The days of manufacturers 'going legal' over typos have passed, but we are still left with a magazine culture more likely to pre-select and even reject a product than 'destroy' it.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
SlickenSmooth,
I agree on the Pass stuff. Not nearly the league of the Spectral or Solution.
heya BenY and Slicken,
re the pass vs spectral, can you guys shed some more light onto the subject please if you heard them? The pass xa.5 series got almost universal praise, worldwide. some magazines set the xa100.5 on the top of their reference class. bypassing more expensive krells and what not.
is it just an unfortunate combination with magico? but then again I dont think spectrals are the most powerfull of its kind either if magicos are starving for power.
cheers
M
Mr Plus
So reviewers will only review what they like? What are we suppose to take from that? Is a product you did not like is good or not since you have passed it on to a reviewer who liked it? Why are you dismissing JA measurement completely just because he said he liked what he hard? How is it that an experience listener like JA like such poor measuring products? Why bother to measure at all then? Why there are no "guide line" for quality in this industry? The slightest amount of intellect can come up with them, yet no reviewer is willing to do that.
This thread neatly explains why a set of guidelines for quality would be absurd. Let's go right back to the OP's statement. From a measurement standing alone, there should be no way a person would choose the Avantgarde over a Magico and yet the OP at this time clearly does. If there was some set of measurement-led guidelines for quality as you suggest, chances are that the Avantgarde would fail to pass that standard and that would mean the OP might spend their audio life listening to products that were 'right' but not right for them.
This also highlights why if a reviewer rejects a product, there should be a second pass to see if there's another reviewer who can see what's good about the product.
An experienced listener is generally someone who knows that measurement counts, but in listening often doesn't count for much. This does not undermine measurement, but places its importance in context.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Why is it that almost every time somebody did not have anything favorable to say about a Magico product, some people get all flustered. From the reviews, I have high regards for Magico products. I love the way they look and the technology and engineering that have gone into it. In fact I had hoped that the V2 might end up in my living room. Which was why I held out on the Avantgardes until I heard the Magico. After listening to it, I just found that I just cannot part with $18k for what I've heard. Which is a shame because I really love their design and appearance, much more than the Avantgardes!
Matt,
It's not that the Pass is bad. In fact it's outstanding. It's rather the combintaion. It's a little bit too dark sounding for the Magico's. It's not all about power, it's just that imo the 30-SS pre is a little further than the XP-20. I've heard there's a 40-SS pre in the making! (they were flyering it at the CES 2010) CAN'T WAIT!
Silence is Music
Slickensmooth, you went to the CES?! Anyway, shouldn't that be a good combination? Something warm and dark to complement the very neutral and transparent Magicos?
No Jtein I didn't went to the CES! But my dealer did.
As of the combination. Yes that's what you'd normally think (the + and - thing) but sometimes what it does is that it magnifies the strong points of a speaker and how it's intended to sound by the creators.
My dealer prefers Avalons with Soulution (very organic) and Magico with Spectrals (more of a "sting").
Silence is Music
The Soulution is beyond my budget. Any other amp your dealer uses with the Avalons?
Slick, do you know what class the Spectral amps are? A or AB?
He likes Pass with Avalons also. The XP-20/ XA100.5 combo or the Audio Research Ref 5/ XA100.5 (very musical as he describes it).
Silence is Music
Mr Plus
Again, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you. I am pretty sure that if educated and informed, many people will choose differently than they do now.
So, are you saying the OP is ill-informed or uneducated because he doesn't like the Magicos?
Good luck with that!
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
No, that is not what I am saying. Obviously, he thought the Magicos will be IT based on all the reviews he read, right? Don't you see the irrelevancy of all that without any reference point?
Post new comment