Mini 2 price increase?
Cemil Gandur -- Wed, 12/05/2007 - 11:37
The local dealer is advising that the US list is going up to $30000 as of 15 December.
Can anyone advise if they've heard this or anythign different?
Thanks
The local dealer is advising that the US list is going up to $30000 as of 15 December.
Can anyone advise if they've heard this or anythign different?
Thanks
Alas, it is true. The Mini II (with stands) is going up to $29,600 (from $26,400), due to substantial increases in the costs of raw materials and manufacture and the unfavorable exchange rate (many of Magico's crossover parts are made in Europe, as are its fantastic birch cabinets).
USD .... yikes... must hurt a lot of companies who source from Europe.
Ordered a pair before the price increase - will be delivered after the new year :)
Zeb wrote:Ordered a pair before the price increase - will be delivered after the new year :)
I'm really glad that you were spared the price increase, Zeb! Hope you can post your personal impressions of how the Mini 2 interfaces with your gear.
I am finding they are so responsive to any improvements in upstream transparency. They seem to keep begging for ever better ancilliaries.
I wrote a long addition to this thread last week, which somehow disappeared into cyberspace somewhere. Here's another attempt at conveying some impressions.
The Magicos finally arrived a few weeks ago. No doubt JV and rave reviews in TAS and elsewhere put some pressure on Magicos manufacturing capacity. Rest of system is EMM labs CDSD/Dac-6e, VPI SSM/Dynavector XV1s/ASR Basis Exklusiv, CJ LS17-2 and ASL Hurricanes. Cabling by Nordost and Kimber. Music, mostly jazz (of all types) and some rock/soul. Speakers now have about 70 hours on them.; they replaced Maggies 3.5, which have been my main speakers since 1994!
In no particular order:
1- First impressions were not positive. 20 hours later and I'm wondering if I've done a $26k mistake. Then I remembered that the CJ inverts phase, swapped the cables around and bingo!
2- They don't throw sound into the room as the Maggies do. You have to sit closer. I expect it's due to the different radiation patterns.
3- They don't have the same frequency integrity as you stand up. A bit obvious for those who use 'normal' speakers, but when you've lived with Maggies (or other large panels) for a long time, you get used to the sound not changing when you get up.
4- They need plenty of room around to sound great. Well away from walls and the listener also sitting with space around. Best position I found is a bit further back form the classic apex of equilateral triangle.
5- THey throw a HUGE soundstage, and I mean massive. I have about 3.5 meters space to the left of the left speaker and about 2.5 meters to the right of the right speaker. You can hear the soundstage being tighter on the right side. Sound comes from way beyond the speakers - it's quite amazing.
6- They disappear. Period. I defy anyone with their eyes closed to point correctly where the speakers are.
7- They are very very transparent. I fine tuned the bias on the amps during one session and could well hear the difference. I suspect it would be very easy to hear differences in the partnering equipment.
8- THis transparency is a bit ruthless sometimes. You can easily hear when engineers use different amounts/types of reverb on different instruments or usually the vocals. As a result, some recordings sound a bit disjointed, with the vocalist often appearing as if singing in a different space.
9- Micro-dynamics are amazing. The speakers preserve the initial attack envelope of instruments.
10- Bass is fast, controlled in a similar way to panels, but goes much deeper. Furthermore, it has oomph, which Maggie bass doesn't. I always prefer to hear bass notes than have oomph (hence panels), but in this case, I have both.
11- Highs .. I think it was JV who made comments on the 'whitish' quality of Maggie treble. I can hear that too. However, as far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on whether I prefer the 'whitish' Maggie highs or the 'Navy blue' Magico highs.
12- These speakers require power. They stay clean at loud volumes and convey well the size and power of a big band. You are therefore tempted to try match realistic SPLs. My 200W Hurricanes, erm.. lost their wind and clipped (admittedly at unsociable volumes). Oh to hear those speakers with a 610T!
13- Final comment is that Magico needs to be commended for the packaging. I've never seen anything so perfect, both in looks and in functionality. I know it probably cost a bit to produce this, but when you do spend this kind of money on a piece of hifi equipment, you do expect something special.
More to come after another 100 hours.
Hello Zeb,
Thanks for the comments. When I compared the MG 20.1 with the Mini, I observed the same differences that you described.
If you've just passed the 100 hour mark, there is still quite a long way to go before the "real" Mini 2 unveils itself.
After 300 hours, whatever reservations I harboured about the sound evaporated and the Mini 2 exonerated itself completely.
After 200 hours, the new levels of unveiling that unfold come like a series of pleasant aftershocks.
Then, there are the lovely surprises you get when you upgrade anything upstream, because the Mini2 let's you hear every ounce of improvement arising from any upgrade.
I upgraded to state-of-the-art Acrolink Mexcel speaker cables (7N s10000), Interconnects (DA6100) and powercord (PC9100) to replace budget-priced Harmonix Golden Performance interconnects, Au24 speaker cables and a Python powercord. The Mini 2's reveal the great extent to which these sensational new cables from Japan "un-choke" the musical signal, as it flows through more smoothly and unimpeded.
As heard through the Mini 2's it is as though the musical performances have been released from a paralyzing stranglehold.
Zeb,
You also need to look at your amplification. Sorry to critique, I learned that the hard way, but the inability of the Hurricane to deliver any meaningful current is detrimental. Especially in the highs where the Mini impedance is somewhat on the low side.
No problem Dan, I've already come to that same conclusion, that the Hurricanes need to be replaced .. eventually, when budget allows.
They're fine at average levels, then start clipping as it gets loud :(
Zeb wrote:No problem Dan, I've already come to that same conclusion, that the Hurricanes need to be replaced .. eventually, when budget allows.
They're fine at average levels, then start clipping as it gets loud :(
You must have hit the 100 hours mark by now, your concerns erased?
I did not write earlier because I believe your concerns will disappear once the Mini II settle in.
Should be around 175 hours, the minis sound amazing. The amps still clip at unsociable volumes, but the minis do encourage "realsitic" volumes :) I definitely think this is the weak link in the system right now. I still think I will have to sit a fair amount closer to them than I did with the Maggies - admittedly, I sat unusually far from the Maggies, but they managed that distance.
I am waiting for 200 hours to play around the positionning of the speakers in the room. They are presently put roughly where the Maggies were, with a slight toe-in as opposed to the Maggies shooting straight ahead. I've not done any extensive front-to-back positionning so far, as I am waiting for the 'full' break-in. I am getting excellent bass however (both extension and quality), so the ideal position might be close to where they are right now.
I might get a demo of a 610T in house. According to the local dealer, someone ordered a pair and might be backing off, after they have arrived.
If not, I will be trying alternative amplification to see - I really feelk that my ASLs are falling a bit short in this system.
Will post impressions with other amps when demo'ed.
A few weeks later, and the speakers get more amazing by the listening session. I really can't seem to find any issue with them anywhere. I've got plenty of bass, an amazing sounstage, superb dynamics and micro-dynamics (totally amazing), clarity, transparency (without sounding clinical), totally accurate representation of timbre, vocals etc..
My only issue is that many reviews I've read seem to imply that the Mini 2s are suitable for chamber music or small group jazz in small spaces. I've got them in a large room with a cathedral ceiling and they totally rock on Led Zeppelin and lift the roof with Buddy Rich!
The local Magico dealer came around today to install the 10.5" arm on the VPI, and was astonished at the sound and bass coming out of them. Other friends mentionned that that the Magicos lifted my system's sound by several orders of magnitude, that the system never sounded better, etc..
I will be testing a Ref 3/610T combo in my system in about 3 weeks and will report back. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the improvement on what I have is not too major .. In the meantime, if anyone is considering any speaker at a price close to or above the Magicos, you owe it to yourself to get a decent Magico demo before going for anything else.
Oh, and as an added bonus, they look as good as they sound - might not be important for many of us, but this is one speaker purchase that doesn't need apologising for :)
Had mine playing now for 2 months. Still improving. Especially in the highs. These caps they use seems to get more and more liquid as time goes by. I have heard the Ref 3/610T in HK few weeks ago. Very nice indeed, but not as resolving as other setups I heard. If you can keep an open ear, you may be pleasantly surprise with some of the better SS amps.
Ear is usually open :)
Any SS recommendations?
Spectral, Goldmund and the big Boulder.
Sacduser I am new to the forum and had read some posts from a few years ago when you were just getting the magico's. Did you end up with the Telos 400 and if so how do you like them?
I have been priviledged in having the Ref3/610T at home since Saturday. My kind dealer brought them over, hooked them up, left and told me to enjoy!
I have to say this has been a quantum leap for my system. CD after CD, I am continuously surprised at the level of detail (!), effortlessness and sheer musicality of this combo. I have been rediscovering my CDs and my LPs, with long late into the night listening sessions. In fact, I can hardly tear myself away !!
I have to retract some of the comments I made earlier about the Magicos. They now fill the room completely with glorious sound - it defies comprehension.
This combo makes every CD enjoyable, even the ones that sounded bad in the first place. I am not sure why, and it isn't coloration - in fact I've never heard anything so neutral. It just lets the music flow past the hifi.
Whereas I could try to describe the bass, mid and highs, response, attack, power, what Martin Colloms likes to call PRAT, etc.. the Ref 3/610 are beyond these terms. They just seem to get out of the way and let the music pour through.
They are absolutely amazing pieces of gear. Anyone serious about music should try to listen to them.
Thanks Zeb. Good (and bad) to hear that the Mini 2 blossoms even more beautifully with higher calibre amplification.
Have you tried upgrading the cabling? I had Au24 speaker cables and Harmonix Golden Performance interconnects which are widely acclaimed, so I thought they were good enough. After all, how much improvement can you get from wire?
Lately, I have auditioned some of the most expensive cables with the Mini. Sad to say, the Mini 2 has more than enough room (or resolution) to accomodate all the extra layers of low-level detail that these super cables allow to gush through, which good cables are choking back.
I ended up with the top-of-the-line Mexcel interconnect, power cord and speaker cable. Spectacular price but you forget that once you hear the performance. Developed in conjunction with Mitsubishi Japan, Mexcel really has a proper handle on what they are doing. I also considered the Stealth Indra/Dream. Auditioned Kubala Sosna, but they could not provide what I was after. Jorma Designs is also worth auditioning, definitely.
The Mini 2's can also make room for improvements from mechanical isolation. I'd like to share a hint: The TAOC platforms offer amazing performance for a very reasonable price.
majesticgiraffe wrote:Sacduser I am new to the forum and had read some posts from a few years ago when you were just getting the magico's. Did you end up with the Telos 400 and if so how do you like them?
Hello Majesticgiraffe,
In response to your query, I've posted a report on having lived with the Telos 400 for year in the Telos 400 thread. Hope you find it useful.
I have not heard as many high-end amps as a professional reviewer like Jvalin, but I've compared my Telos experience with a number of big names. I'm keeping them as i've not come across anything that provides that refreshing and invigorating sense of vivacity and engagement.
I don't mean to gush or to say there are no better amplifiers, but they are the best I've heard in terms of dynamism and presence.
If you prefer a gentler more soothing presentation, the Dartzeels are also quite stunning. I've not heard the Audio Research amps which Zeb and Jvalin have auditioned with the Telos, but the 610 is out of my range, and the 210 is underpowered for the Mini2.
My experience with the Magico V3 might not translate to the Mini II, but the Spectral DMA-360s were magnificent driving the V3. I had this combination for only three days, but the Spectrals "lit up" the V3s. The amplifiers brought out the V3's best qualities and revealed aspects of the speaker I hadn't heard before.
Thanks Robert. Unfortunately, Spectral doesn't have a local dealer :(
Quote:Whereas I could try to describe the bass, mid and highs, response, attack, power, what Martin Colloms likes to call PRAT, etc.. the Ref 3/610 are beyond these terms. They just seem to get out of the way and let the music pour through.
They are absolutely amazing pieces of gear. Anyone serious about music should try to listen to them.
As you know, Zeb, I couldn't agree more. In the Ref 3 and 610T, you've got the most lifelike preamp and amp I've heard--bar none. There are other combos that are faster, that have more control and definition in the bass, that reach higher with greater impact and speed in the treble, that have more detail and tighter focus and higher bandwidth and lower distortion, but none that I've heard in my home or at shows sounds more like the real things with the Magico Mini IIs or the Symposium Acoustics Panoramas than this ARC duo. It simply has the air, the light, the bloom, the density of tone color, the texture, the sheer incandescence of live music (certainly live classical music) heard in a lively hall.
Just the other day I heard, among other pieces, Barber's gorgeous (and heartbreaking) Knoxville 1915, and I swear to you the chamber orchestra and soloist sounded so much like what I'm used to hearing via the ARC Ref 3 and 610T that I actually said something to that effect (after the piece was over, of course) to my colleague Mark Lehman, and I never say things like that after hearing live music--ever. Indeed, most of the itme I come away from a recital or a concert thinking about the enormity of the gap between live and ersatz. But that afternoon, in that hall...
sacduser wrote:. Auditioned Kubala Sosna, but they could not provide what I was after. Jorma Designs is also worth auditioning, definitely.
What was wrong with K-S cables, or what you have missed with them?
Thanks all. The enjoyment (ie listening) continues (too) late into the night! It's no exaggeration to say that I am shaking my head in disbelief at every CD I put on - my record player, being out of commission right now due to interconnect issues.
@sacduser: I've not tried playing with cabling yet. I'm using Kimber Select speaker cable (the top of the range one), with good result. THe dealer left me a top-of-the-range Transparent cable to try, as well as a bunch of Shunyatta Annacondas power cables and balanced cables, but I'm sorry to say that I've not been able to bring myself to play around with these! It's just too much fun listening to music and I have too little time as it is.
I'll eventually get there. If I do psych myself enough to build the courage to blow a fortune on this (deservedly) gear, then I'll be in the market for a 4 meter balanced interconnect to go between Ref 3 and 610T. Any suggestions anyone?
Marba wrote:sacduser wrote:. Auditioned Kubala Sosna, but they could not provide what I was after. Jorma Designs is also worth auditioning, definitely.
What was wrong with K-S cables, or what you have missed with them?
I brought home a pair of KS Emotion (top of the line) speaker cables to audition. You can see in the spade lugs that they use extremely thick gauge stranded wire. Like the reviews report, they sound very even even in frequency response from top to bottom and very dynamic.
However, I am accustomed to a more fluid sense of cohesion at subtle low levels; something that solid core wire does so well. The music through the Emotions sounded a bit disintegrated and pulverised at the molecular level, which seems to be the classic sympton of the signal jumping from wire to wire in stranded cable.
Such distortion probably can't be heard in many good systems, as many people enjoy the good qualities of the Emotion without sensing these drawbacks.
But through the Telos and the Mini 2, I can hear the big difference comparing the KS emotion with just some generic silver solid-core hook-up wire.
sacduser wrote:Marba wrote:sacduser wrote:. Auditioned Kubala Sosna, but they could not provide what I was after. Jorma Designs is also worth auditioning, definitely.
What was wrong with K-S cables, or what you have missed with them?
I brought home a pair of KS Emotion (top of the line) speaker cables to audition. You can see in the spade lugs that they use extremely thick gauge stranded wire. Like the reviews report, they sound very even even in frequency response from top to bottom and very dynamic.
However, I am accustomed to a more fluid sense of cohesion at subtle low levels; something that solid core wire does so well. The music through the Emotions sounded a bit disintegrated and pulverised at the molecular level, which seems to be the classic sympton of the signal jumping from wire to wire in stranded cable.
Such distortion probably can't be heard in many good systems, as many people enjoy the good qualities of the Emotion without sensing these drawbacks.
But through the Telos and the Mini 2, I can hear the big difference comparing the KS emotion with just some generic silver solid-core hook-up wire.
I've been using Jorma Prime and No1 lately and considering the price difference Emotion cables are very good. With Prime you get resolution on whole new level and almost everything else that Emotion brings to the table (speaker).
A quick heads-up on this saga: since I couldn't face returning the ARC pair (Ref 3 / 610T) to the dealer, I sent him the first installment instead ...
Zeb,
You made a wise choice!
Try a 4 meter Odin and be prepared to be destroyed
I think most of parts cost increase and the diferential dollar-euro. Almost as a general rule, after a good to very good reviews (and prizes as "Golden Ears") the prices of equipment increases.
Sometimes the good reviews are a disvantage for the buyer who have to pay from 100 to x000 dollars for price incremental.
Any electronic part justifies the final equipment incremental cost.
In my own opinion.
You know many manufacturers or importers ask and insist reviewers to review his equipments. If it really likes reviewer or magazine, are buyed at dealer cost (more or less 40% lees). At less many of the times.
Congratulations for your buying. I hope you have time enough to listen a lot of music.
Tawalile
Thanks Elliot. I have gone for a 5 meter Transparent interconnect (Ref XL) between the Ref 3 and 610T because the one down from the range sounded really good in my system, and because the dealer gave it at what seems to be cost. Btw, the Transparent interconnect sounded better than the Valhalla (again in that system).
However ... I am getting a pair of Valhalla speaker cables for testing this weekend. That dealer is also insisting to send me a pair of Odins despite me telling him that there is no way I can even think of buying those. I am not sure whether I should hook them up. What you don't know, you can't miss ... right ?
Thanks Tawalile. Compared to most people, I spend an inordinate amount of time listening to music. By my own desires, it is not enough .. I'm lucky to have grown children, so my weekends are fairly music focused, but on the other hand, my job takes a lot of my time. Having said this, the ARC amps are for life really, so I'm looking forward to a long relationship with these babies (well, monsters more like it ..)
Zeb,
I want you to know that there is a huge difference between those two products. ( Valhalla/Odin). I am also not sure how mixing different cables will work out in the system but I am an Odin lover and have done a lot of listening to it in my system and my friend's ( who did not want to buy it but did as well). I have a Ref3 and Ref 210 with dcs front and Magico V.3 hooked up right now with the Odin. My friend's system is allso tube amp with dCS front and Scaena's.
I am not sure what the other person's point was in that last note but ARC has not rasied it's prices in a long time. The Euro/dollar thing is a problem but that is not any manufacturers fault. I just returned from France and it is really expensive to go there with US dollars.
I am sure you are enjoying the system and you should it's great gear!
Go ahead and put Nu Nu on and crank it and enjoy!
E
The dealer sent me a suitcase full of Nordost cables for the weekend: Odin Speaker cables and interconnects, Valhalla speaker cables, interconnects and 20A power cables (nice dealer!).
I had decided to try the Valhallas only, leaving the Odins to the very end, just for curiosity. As it turned out, he sent me banana terminated Valhallas which the ARC amp could not use, so, by default, I ended up hooking up the Odins ... WOW !
Had a session today with some friends, one of whom volunteered his own Valhalla speaker cables to the proceedings.
My Kimber Select speaker cable sounded totally flabby and confused compared to the Valhalla, so that was quickly retired. Moving on to the Odin from the Valhalla was a revelation. The highs became less aggressive, much sweeter and much truer to the sound of real cymbals (say). The bass was deeper, but much much tighter. Music flowed naturally, and however complex and busy it was, it never sounded congested. Each instrument was well separated with its own 'air' envelope. Attack was astonishingly intact.
Moving on to the Odin interconnects (replacing Transparent Refs) brought in more improvements, but in a more subtle form than the quality increase of the speaker cables. Putting in the Valhalla power cables on the Audio Research pair brought in more subtle improvements, mostly in the bottom end.
Recording after recording was astonishing in the way the music flowed totally naturally. The Mini 2s filled my cathedral ceiling room in an incredible way. Bass, mid-range, highs, dynamics, soundstage, imaging, timber etc.. were just so natural, unforced, unhurried yet supremely dynamic and realistic. This was truly the best reproduction of recorded sound I (and I think my friends) have ever heard. Absolutely ravishingly beautiful.
The Odin speaker cables are truly something exceptional (not heard the Tara Labs Zero). Unfortunately, I can't afford them presently at list price, but will have a talk with the dealer and see if something can be worked out. Otherwise, it will probably be the Valhallas, as it will be an issue going back to the Kimbers after this.
It is a real priviledge to be able to hear music reproduced that way. The Odins have been a revelation, the ARC pair is a tour-de-force, and Alon Wolf is a genius to have been able to get this incredible sound out of a pair of, what is after all, mini-monitors.
Hey Zeb,
We found that the Odin was a revelation as well. It is like some attachment on the music ( not in a good way) was removed from the signal. Everything seems to be better focused, faster, clearer and totally more realistic in its presentation. I am glad that you had the opportunity to hear them. I also found that my ARC amps ran with a greater sense of ease and seemed to work less hard. I have 210 not 610's.
Have a great weekend- ask your dealer to try a Quantum4 and try it on your preamp to start and see what you find!
E
Quote:The Odin speaker cables are truly something exceptional (not heard the Tara Labs Zero). Unfortunately, I can't afford them presently at list price, but will have a talk with the dealer and see if something can be worked out. Otherwise, it will probably be the Valhallas, as it will be an issue going back to the Kimbers after this.
Zeb,
You ought to try the Tara Labs Zero Gold interconnects and Omega Gold speaker cable before buying anything else. Did I steer you wrong about the Ref 3/610T?
Jon
You didn't Jon :)
My big problem is that Tara has no local dealer. Will see if I can arrange something with them direct.
Thanks
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