MBL 101 X-treme Radialstrahler Loudspeaker

Hey Zeb, I got Continuo and I took the disc over a freinds house who has a Scarlotti and OMG!!! The first track is a amazing, great tune and terrific recording as well. I know since I am a dealer I have to be careful in what I say since I sell many of the products I mention however the Scarlotti set up with an upsampler at 176.4 with my odin balanced interconnects as dual AES/EBU cables is just INSANE!!! We added to max the thing out a Quantum 4x also from Nordost on the dac and I have to say this was the cherry on the top of the Sunday. If you have not tried one of these toys you should find one and give it a listen.
In full disclosure for Jon I sell all of these pieces and I am not offering it for sale to anyone just reporting my findings! My disclaimer is over. The combination with the dCS stack is just frightening. I think Jon needs to get an upsampler for the stack he has and try it! We listened for over 4 hours and were fighting over what to play next. It was a shame to stop but alas tommorow is a work day.

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I received another e-mail from Juergen Reis, the designer of the 101 X-Tremes, elaborating on his earlier note. I'll reprint it below with a bit of added translation of Juergen's English by me (any mistakes are mine). I believe Juergen is mainly addressing Rupert and my exchange about Juergen's "1.5dB tilt" comment, which I think both Rupert and I misunderstood:

Quote:While I was reading the posts on your thread, I realized that maybe the first explanation from my side was a little bit too short...So I want to clarify this point about the “tuning” of the system with a tilt of 1.5 dB per octave.

In the last 25 years, the AES (Audio Engineering Society) has done a lot of investigations into the designing of good sounding loudspeakers and which criteria a loudspeaker has to fulfill in order to sound homogeneous. There are lots of things that a loudspeaker designer has to take care of to make good loudspeakers, for example, good micro-dynamics and low distortion. But here, we are just talking about tonal neutrality.

The first point is the so-called "free field sound pressure" averaged over a listening area. When you measure a loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber in the far field (at a distance that is more that 3–5 times its dimensions) and average the sound pressure results in an area of 30 degrees horizontal and 15 degrees vertical, you must get a flat curve. Measuring the loudspeaker in the so-called "design point" is a good start, but not necessarily the complete truth. For example, every tweeter focuses sound pressure into a frontal direction the higher the frequency goes. And in order to get a flat average sound pressure in this listening area, you have to raise the level of the tweeter in the top octave when you measure frontally, in order to get enough “air”. This is also the case with “omnis”, that is, when you measure them “only” frontally (and anechoically), you must get a rise in the top octave [which I got, see p. 2--JV].

The second point is that a loudspeaker must have a smooth energy response of total radiated energy with a decreasing slope of 3dB per octave in the main octaves, without any sharp steps or irregularities. To illustrate this point, you have to measure the loudspeaker in a totally opposite way to the above; you have to put it in a reverberation chamber and measure the total radiated energy.

We at mbl have taken both points very seriously and are using a measurement technique that takes both points in one measurement into account, as the human ear does when the loudspeaker is in a living room. We are varying the length of the time window of the measurement with the frequency (in fact, this is done by varying the slope of the time window over time), which the human ear does automatically. So for higher frequencies, our measurement result is more orientated in the direction of free-field measurement and at lower frequencies we are taking more and more room reflections into our measurement results and are going more into the direction of the second point, total radiated sound energy. Only with this adaptive time window does our target measurement result in a smooth, but tilted curve, with a 1.5 dB per octave drop.

I hope I was able to shed a little bit light into this question of 1.5dB tilt. The sound pressure in the listening window does not have this slope [as I've inadvertently proven via my own measurements on pp. 1 and 2 of this thread--JV]; only the test we run with an adaptive time window--to ensure the smooth transition of sound pressure at higher frequencies to the sound energy at lower frequencies--has this target slope.

Best Regards
Juergen Reis
Mbl – Chief engineer

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Quote:Incidentally, how do you take conversations offline? I've tried sending a pm, but the board does not seem to allow it.

You know, kiddo, I have no idea why our PM doesn't work, but you're not the first to tell me that. I guess you'll have to communicate with Elliot the old-fashioned way, by private e-mail, or just start a new thread in the Music section about Avishai or whomever else you want!

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No problem, Elliot!

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I gather you're poking fun, but I'm not quite sure what your poking fun at, Mon.

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Wmcmanus,

Thanks! Even to an old audio hand like me, this has turned out to be a uniquely fascinating experience and a bit of a lesson in appearances and realities. As I noted a long time ago, the 101 X-Tremes are, if nothing else (and they are plenty else), the single most surprising products I've ever reviewed, in that they turned out to be the exact opposite of what I'd expected to hear (and what, in fact, I had heard at trade shows). You certainly do have a large enough room for them, and you already have the right amplification and a taste for Radialstrahlers. But whether you (or anyone in his right mind) can or should pull the trigger on a $200k omni is a question no one can answer but you.

If your travels take you through Cincy this summer, be sure to get in touch.

Jon

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I can't wait to read all about it Jon! All indications are that it should be a fascinating review at the very least.

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Syd wrote:I can't wait to read all about it Jon! All indications are that it should be a fascinating review at the very least.

Agreed, but as much fun as the review will be fascinating to read, I'll be looking forward to the pics and descriptions of MBL's production process with equal anticipation.

As for being able to afford to drop $200k for the 101 X-Tremes (let alone being crazy enough to do so)... nope, nope, nope, not at this point. Not any any foreseeable point! But they sure are fun to read about and drool over.

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Stein,

The piano movers were well payed, and they sure as hell deserved it!

They've moved a lot of expensive stuff in and out for me, and their general reaction is lively curiosity (coupled with a touch of shock and awe). As far as the speakers costing more than what they make in a year, hell, they cost more than what I make in two years (when you throw in the electronics, cables, and front end, in almost half a decade). So what, I say! I'm never going to be in a position to buy them--no one I know is. To me, it's just plain interesting to see and listen to what two very smart and gifted men, Wolfgang Meletzky and Juergen Reis, were capable of creating when costs were no limit. More than anything else, these things are heroic feats of imagination--fun to look at, marvelous to listen to, and a pleasure to write about, but built in very small numbers for very rich, very daring, and very dedicated audiophiles.

As for Product of the Year...well, we'll see. With Revel Salons, Magico V3s, Wilson Alexandra II Series IIs, Quad ESL-2905s, MartinLogan CLXes, dCS Scarlattis, TW Acustic Raven AC-3s, Clearaudio Statements, MBL and Spectral electronics (and, if I had my way, Symposium Acoustics Panoramas) in the queue, this is going to be a very, very, very competitive year when it comes to POY Awards. However, I think I can safely say that the 101 X-Tremes are highly worthy contenders.

Jon

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I'm sure the Spectral will be in the mix.

Happily, we give more than one POY award within component categories, which is going to ease the congestion in what was a year crowded with truly exceptional products. Unhappily, the room at the very top is SRO, but we'll find a fair way of acknowledging the loudspeaker competitors, which are (after all) very different in kind and in room/music/listener suitability.

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JV-

Great thread!

You should check out REG's comments about this thread on his forum:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/

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Hearing a unit at a show can only give one a glimpse of what it may or may not do. I have not heard the new cd player from Spectral so I have no comment to make about it. I am extremely familiar with the dCS Scarlatti and Paganini systems as well as many others and the dCS Scarlatti as Mr. Valin reported on is the leader in the clubhouse for me as well. It is the first digital device that I have heard that allows me to forget I am listening to digital and just get invloved in the music. I have had the pleasure of hearing it in my store and in two other really high resolution systems and was not disappointed in any of them. If the Spectral or any other device is in this league or even perhaps better than it deserves a lot of praise. I don't believe that because you heard something in some show environment tells you much and I can give you a lot of examples.
The MBL that JV has sounded horrible at CES, The VTL demo I heard at CES was nothing special however I have heard the S400 in a clients system and it is a world class amp. The Scaena speakers at CES don't begin to show the make up of it neither did the Magico exhibit yet these are both wonderful speakers. My point is do your homework!

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Jon,
I was only trying to point out that what you hear at a show is only an indication of what a product can do and sometimes not a good indication.
all of the things I mentioned did not sound as they are capable of at a show. My point is that to make a judgement of what is the best cd playback system based on a drive by at a show is just STUPID.
If you read what I wrote I mentioned that all of those products did not show as they are capable at the show. I don't understand your singling out the Scaena I guess there is something there I am unaware of. I did not say the Magico sounded horrible however I have heard them sound much better. That in fact is my point! A hotel room is a lousy place to judge the sound of a state of the art product BOYS!
A show is just that a show. Serious listeners try to have a good room, good electricity, low noise level, a time consuming set up and electronics, cables, and sources that weren't borrowed for convience purposes of sharing the cost of a room.
As a dealer you would be surprised how many people make a decision on the sound of a product based on a show. If you only heard the MBL based on this years CES would you buy it? Please !!!
I thought this was an open forum for differing opinions it seems sometimes that is only if we agree with you BOYS!

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Dear Jon,
I think that would be an excellent idea. As a dealer the crap one hears from attendees is just rediculous! Many speakers , especially those that are large or are not direct radiating suffer greatly at shows. It is much easier to get decent sound from smaller speakers at a show.
I also call it as I see it, Sir!
I know you are aware of the time and effort it takes to get a system "singing." The set up at most shows is at best 24 hours, really bad electricity ( this is an huge understatement) incredible noise and small hot rooms with terrible acoustics! Voila the ingredients everyone should have for a State of the Art demo.
I am now calm I guess I have real issues with the stupidity of people that pass off their ignorant opinions. Tell me you had both in your system, tell what that system is and tell me what you heard and then we can talk.
I can only tell you that the Scaena, like many speakers I have dealt with in the past like the Infinity IRS, BETA, Magneplanar Tympani's, Martin Logans etc take a lot of effort and time to make sound their best.
Keep calling it as you see it and treat them all with the same rules and I am behind you 100 percent.
Enjoy the holiday, we are moving into the new place next week and then the real work begins.
E

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Elliot Goldman wrote:
I am now calm I guess I have real issues with the stupidity of people that pass off their ignorant opinions.
E

I suppose that calling names is not part of reasonable communcation, but my opinion is not based on one show and one system. You could talk to dealers who have dCS and Spectral gear in Europe and their preference is Spectral.

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Mr. Valin,

"The fact that Robert currently has an entire system of Spectral gear is an astonishing coup. This will be the first time in better than a decade that Spectral has put its products in the hands of a reviewer. That Rick Fryer chose Robert only goes to show the high esteem he is rightly held in by everyone in this industry."

That Jon Valin will not be listening to this system, that can only be listened to correctly set-up, but for once in a decade, is very wrong. This goes beyond common sense.

Again we've been over this issue here for well over a year, and the excuses are wearing thin. Here was the last post on this:
http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=3633

If I were in your shoes, I would ask your parent company or Mr. Harley or Mr. P or somebody for money for a 2 day trip to his house. And if I could not get this money, I would put it up myself.
thank, JL

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Elliot Goldman wrote:Marba,
You keep doing the samething over and over, which is stating someone's opinion ( un-named ) as a an authority. This is nonsense sir.

Sergio Pozzi importer of dCS and Spectral, Harry of Rhapsody audio Nertherlands among others

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jvalin wrote:Fellas,

If you're going to continue this dCS-versus-Spectral-by-proxy debate, please move the argument to a different and more appropriate spot (e.g., DA Converters). This is the MBL 101 X-Treme thread, remember?

Jon

I'll second that motion!

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Quote:Do you think that 101X are to big for your room and that most of the reviewers have to small rooms for evaluating big speakers?

No and yes.

The 101 Xes sound better by far in my room than I've ever heard them sound in much larger rooms at CES and Munich. (And I believe that some of the folks from MBL would agree with that.) I think this may be because Radialstrahlers need to see room boundaries at some critical distance to function properly. (I'll discuss this when I review the speakers.) At the same time, there is no question in my mind that a bigger room would be better, all other things being equal. Indeed, the 101 X-Tremes were designed, in part, to fill bigger spaces than the 101 Es could (and can).

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Quote:101X-3me's have been played at volumes that are not suitable for humans.

Heh-heh!

Quote:Last year Munich show when speakers were close to the windows debacle was remedied this year with the divide behind the speakers.

Like I said, they need to see room boundaries at a certain distance (and some damping in between them), although oddly enough you can overdamp these things fairly easily.

Quote:I could only imagine what that speakers can do to your room/house when cranked above 9.

They are marvelous at medium-loud volumes. Best I've heard.

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One can always remove layers of clothing and stick a fan on if that's not enough. :) The 610Ts are worth it :)

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Quote:Elliot Goldman wrote:
Marba,
You keep doing the samething over and over, which is stating someone's opinion ( un-named ) as a an authority. This is nonsense sir.

Sergio Pozzi importer of dCS and Spectral, Harry of Rhapsody audio Nertherlands among others

While I truly hate to open this can of worms again on a thread that is devoted to an entirely different topic and which I myself have repeatedly asked be limited to that topic, I must report that I received an e-mail from dCS telling me, in no uncertain terms, that Marba is simply mistaken about Sergio and Harry's preference for Spectral over dCS. DCS actually contacted both of these dealers, and both of them replied that they have never said that they prefer Spectral to dCS. In fairness to dCS, I am making this post to clarify the matter; however, I do not intend this to re-ignite a flame war between Marba and Elliot. Once again, this is a thread devoted to MBL 101 X-Tremes. After this post, let's keep to the subject at hand.

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jvalin wrote:Quote:Elliot Goldman wrote:
Marba,
You keep doing the samething over and over, which is stating someone's opinion ( un-named ) as a an authority. This is nonsense sir.

Sergio Pozzi importer of dCS and Spectral, Harry of Rhapsody audio Nertherlands among others

While I truly hate to open this can of worms again on a thread that is devoted to an entirely different topic and which I myself have repeatedly asked be limited to that topic, I must report that I received an e-mail from dCS telling me, in no uncertain terms, that Marba is simply mistaken about Sergio and Harry's preference for Spectral over dCS. DCS actually contacted both of these dealers, and both of them replied that they have never said that they prefer Spectral to dCS. In fairness to dCS, I am making this post to clarify the matter;

Then I must be a darn fool to believe what they have told me in the first place. There is a show next week in Milan, please go there and talk to the guys in person.

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But for $35 fedex ground you could do so..... :)

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funny, how?
do i amuse you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_ff46b58Hk

Can we agree that it is a shame that the magazines do not have the power
found in, let's say, the auto pubs, to demand access?

hey back to the MBLs. Let us know how the 610's work.

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