Magnepan MMG/MG12 Question
-- Wed, 01/14/2009 - 11:43
I have a question about room size and Magnepan’s. I would like to hear the MMG and know how it compares to a speaker like the Paradigm Studio 20. I currently own Studio 100’s in my theater room and I have heard and love the Magenpan 3.6 but do not have the room, amp or money for them. I have a Cambridge Audio 740A and my room is about 11x11 with an 8 foot ceiling. I have heard that Magnepans need a lot of room to breath. My concern is that if I have to place the speakers 2-3 feet out from the wall and in an 11 foot wide room that they will be 2-3 feet from my listening position. The MMG and MG12 seem small. Do they really need to be that far out?
Thanks,
As I'm sure you're aware, most speakers sound better out from the wall. A dipole planar like a Maggie or any electrostat needs to be further from the wall primarily due to the wave launch off the back being identical to the front. That back wave reflection off of the wall is made stronger the closer the speaker is to the wall and it's not time delayed enough (due to the close proximity) to provide the depth planars are capable of. The further you get them from the wall, the longer the delay of the sound you hear coming off the back of the speaker. That's part of the charm of a planar, a great, deep sound stage produced by that delay. I've have heard planars sound ok with highly absorbative room treatment directly behind the speakers when placed close to the wall but you still won't get the delayed effect you could in a larger room. That will cost additional dollars but probably necessary if you want the speaker to deliver it's best given your space limitation. Additionally, the MMG will play well with a decent receiver but really comes to life with a decent amp. If your amp is capable of doubling it's power as impedance halves, and at 4 ohms it's capable of 150-200 watts the MMG will really shine. An apartment dwelling friend of mine replaced his B&W towers with MMG and was stunned at the lack of "boxy" sound. In his words, "the sound just seems to be coming out of the air". He found a Sunfire amp on Audiogon which does 200 watts at 8 Ohms and 400 watts at 4 Ohms to drive them and is quite happy. He's also found out that an Earthquake sub isn't fast enough to keep up with the MMG's fast planar bass and is looking for a faster sub! Especially if you listen to any acoustic/upright bass or cello I think you'll appreciate the MMG over conventional box speaker in the price range you're looking to. Much lower moving mass, much faster, much lower distortion in mid bass and lower midrange. Loud rock might be better suited to the Studio 20.
I don't think I can do better than quad just did--and I reviewed the things! He's 100% correct. If you have "enough" room (you don't need a giant listening space, but you do need to pull them away from the walls) and a good powerful amp that doubles into 4-ohms (like one of the Parasounds) and you don't listen to stadium rock at very loud levels, then the little Maggies are very hard to beat. (I would also listen to the 1.6QR, BTW, if it isn't too big and expensive for you--that is one of the truly great loudspeakers and one of the truly great--maybe the greatest--buys in high-end audio.)
I'm in full agreement with quaddahlqulstrep and JV.
Try out the Maggies and be prepared for two things:
1. rediscovering every recording in your collection
2. doing a lot of smiling
One thing to keep in mind, regardless of your choice in speakers is that a square room is going to have issues in the bass.
In your case, an 11 x 11 room is going to have its main resonant mode around 100 (or ~102 Hz). You're going to hear a *lot* of energy at this frequency and the first couple of multiples of it. Without some sort of treatment, the room is going to boom.
In the absence of full room treatment or if commercial products exceed the budget, I recommend trying the following:
1. Gather a lot of those brown cardboard cartons products get shipped in. Try for boxes ~ 15" x 15" x 20" or a similar size. Get enough of them to stack in columns in the corners of the room, floor to ceiling.
2. Gather all the newspaper you can find and crumple the pages, one at a time, as tightly as you possibly can. Stuff the cardboard cartons with the crumpled newspaper, as tightly as you can. Tape the boxes closed.
3. Stack the boxes in the corners of your room, floor to ceiling. You can cover them with an attractive fabric to make them more palatable to the eye.
These will act as "econo" bass traps, absorbing much of the room's resonant modes, smoothing out bass response and cleaning up the overall sound.
Have fun!
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
I have a pair of Magnepan SMGc's (sort-of predecessor to the MMG) which I have never heard optimally because they are being powered by a 60W Rotel integrated. Lots of 4 ohm output is critical to getting good dynamics, as well as inner detail during complex passages. Maggie's tend to sound compressed at very low volumes, but when I crank the volume a bit, they still sound somewhat compressed because they just aren't getting the juice. Compressed dynamics subtract a lot of magic from the recording. That Cambridge amp you have should drive them no problem, but it may not be enough to hear them at their best. I am using the SMGc's in a small room, and they sound pretty good, although like quaddahlquistrep mentioned, the difference between Maggie's being too close to the back wall vs. being 3 ft+ is critical, in my case night-and-day. Even small Maggie's will dominate a room if that room is small, but if it's dedicated then who cares? One other thing, and I don't know if others have had this problem, is that I have found the Magnepans to be very difficult to position. This is most likely because of their excellent resolution and midbass clarity. I still can't seem to find a position that gets everything right, tweeter inside/outside, toe-in, distance apart, etc., I find it to be very very tricky.
Hi EasyBigFella,
In my experience, Maggies are no harder to place than any good speaker and the demands are actually quite similar.
See if article at this link helps:
http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Hi Barry, thanks for the information. I'm going to have to re-examine the article because there is a lot of useful information in there. Last night I think I actually fixed part of the problem- I eliminated the toe-in and now they seem to have disappeared a bit compared to the previous position. Before I was getting a sort-of "cross-eyed" effect which indicated improper positioning. In fact, I've seen a lot of pictures of Magnepan setups and it seems as though they shouldn't be toed in much, if at all. Thanks for the help, I'll have to take another look at the article.
Dave
Hi Dave,
I've found the amount of toe-in with Maggies will depend on whether you use them tweeters-in (my preferred positioning) or tweeters-out.
Tweeters-in requires a bit more toe-in than tweeters-out. The article will give a good starting point.
Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
Thanks to everyone for the excellent informational responses. You have given me a lot to think about. One of the dealers in my area has the MMG. He is a bit aloof but I will ask if I can hear them in my room. He also has the Studio 20s. If he will let me demo them both that would really be great. So far I have been using the Cambridge Audio 740A part time with my Studio 100's in my theater room and I have to say that I am extremely impressed with the difference from my Pioneer Elite Home Theater receiver. I am new to all of this and if a little Cambridge 740 can make that much of a musical difference then I can not wait to see what the future holds.
Thanks again to everyone.
Greetings! I hope resurrect this thread with a quick question. I'm trying to decide on the MMG and MG12. I've heard the MMG and 1.6 and I love the Maggie detail. I had a Dynaudio 52Se which sounded great but boxy and I wanted "more". I auditioned the 1.6 in my room for a week from a friend and loved it but the WAF killed it. So I was thinking the MG12 might be a winner based on performance and size. My wife has seen and liked the MMG. I've heard the MMG on nearly the exact setup as mine and liked it fine, but not as much as the 1.6.
So which is a better buy? The MMG is SO affordable that I could buy them and walk away with cash. The MG12 is a break-even for me. My room is 15x25ft placement on the long wall. The ceiling is 8-10ft vaulted with placement on the short side. Rogue tube preamp, Quad 909 SS power. 140 into 8ohms. 250 into 4ohms with "current dumping". Seems close enough to the "doubling" rule. I believe I have enough current/power and big enough space. Is it too big for the MMG?
I've read all the professional reviews and forum reviews and I'm at a loss without the ability to do a direct comparison of both in my space. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Dave
daveed,
Speaking as an MG 1.6 owner, I think the problem with Maggies is typically not having enough amplifier, rather than too much. Thus I wouldn't worry about using the 909 with the MMG or any Magneplanar.
Regarding the potential for overpowering the MMG, let me quote an old motorcycling buddy of mine who once quipped, "remember, the throttle twists both ways." The same is true for audio volume control knobs. Just use common sense and I think you'll be fine.
Question: Was the WAF problem with the 1.6's mostly to do with size, or perhaps color? I found that one way to get better 1.6 acceptance factor was to order the speakers in a light beige/off-white color, which subjectively makes them look smaller (my listening room walls are a similar shade of beige, too, so that the 1.6's sort of blend into the background--at least to a point). Note, too, that you can push the speakers back against the walls to get them out of the way when not listening to them. I mention this because, like Jonathan Valin, I think the 1.6's are one of the great deals in high-end audio, so that I'd encourage you to see if you work out an arrangement that would let you get the speakers without causing too much family strife.
For what it's worth, though, I lived with a loaner pair of 12's while my 1.6's were being built, and I can vouch for the fact that they aren't too far off the sonic profile of their bigger brothers. Given the size of your space (fairly large, actually), I'd go for the 12's or 1.6's.
Best,
Chris Martens
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Thanks, Chris. I wasn't necessarily worried about the amp being too much as enough. I was rather wondering if the MMG would be too small for the room.
As for WAF, we were auditioning the black ones against a pair for navy drapes behind them. And yes, I pushed them all the way back when not listening. I'll see what I can do about an arrangement. My 1.6 buddy recommends getting the MMG so she can get used to the sound and "look" while not being overwhelmed. Then later she may be more "into" the 1.6. Maybe if I simply communicate it correctly to her.
I appreciate the advice and will go with the 12 or 1.6.
Best!
Dave
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