Magico V3's match with Naim Audio Supernait+ Hi-Cap?
tomertsin -- Sat, 10/18/2008 - 10:46
I think to downgrade my stereo system.
Can anyone tell about the match between the V3's and the Supernait?
Rest of my gear: MBL 6010D, Wadia 581i se, Plinius 301.
Thanks in advance.
Tomer
Dear Tomer
I own a pair of Magico's V3, and I can tell you they like all the power they can get.
I have no knowledge whatsoever about the Naim Supernait
Based on my experience driving the V3's with a Pass Labs X250.5 , I would recommend you to be very carefull in trying to drive the V3's with less power than what the X250.5 delivers. I myself am in the process of upgrading the X250.5 (heat problems in my room in summertime) and I am surely excluding anything less powerfull.
The only way to find out for sure, is to give a try at your dealer or at home.
Enjoy the ride
Dirk
P.S. the Naim Supernait was tested in Stereophile (as were the V3's) beginnig 2008 :
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/108naim/
I agree that the V3s need some power behind them to achieve their full potential. They are also extremely revealing of upstream components.
I found another test report of the Naim Supernait + Hicap in the german magazine Stereoplay
http//www.stereoplay.de/Produktdaten/Naim-Audio-Superline-Hi-Cap_4703559.html
The conclusion of the review in German is
So spielte sie auf dem Niveau der stereoplay-Referenz Aesthetix Rhea (10/04). Denn die etwas wärmeren Farben der Rhea konterte die Superline nebst Hi-Cap mit ausgeprägterer Dynamik, einer stabileren Raumdarstellung sowie etwas muskulöserem wie auch konturierterem Bass
(Free) translation in English
The combo plays at the same level as the Streoplay Reference Aesthetix Rhea (test 10/04). The somewhat warmer (sound)colours of the Rhea are countered by the Superline met Hi-Cap with outspoken dynamics, stable (solid) soundstage and muscalar and better defined bass.
Hope this is of interest to you
Dirk
P.S. You will need to copy the URL, I don't succeed in getting HTML ON
The link lead me to the Naim Superline phono stage :wink:
Thanks,
Tomer
ddetaey wrote:Dear Tomer
I own a pair of Magico's V3, and I can tell you they like all the power they can get.
I have no knowledge whatsoever about the Naim Supernait
Based on my experience driving the V3's with a Pass Labs X250.5 , I would recommend you to be very carefull in trying to drive the V3's with less power than what the X250.5 delivers. I myself am in the process of upgrading the X250.5 (heat problems in my room in summertime) and I am surely excluding anything less powerfull.
The only way to find out for sure, is to give a try at your dealer or at home.
Enjoy the ride
Dirk
P.S. the Naim Supernait was tested in Stereophile (as were the V3's) beginnig 2008 :
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/108naim/
Dirk,
Did you see the review on hifi+ (third line)?
http://www.absolutesounds.com/index.php?page=17
Would this be an appropriate combination or do the V3's need more power? Thanks.
peterayer wrote:Would this be an appropriate combination or do the V3's need more power? Thanks.
Hi peterayer and tomerstin,
I work for a Naim dealer. In my opinion, the SuperNait would not be an ideal match for the Magico. I've not heard the Magico, but given its sealed-box design and low-ish impedence (mostly below 4 ohms), I don't think the two would make the best combination.
The SuperNait is mildly powerful, delivering more than its rated output into 8 ohms (89W), and has a surprising amount of gain for a single-box amp. In John Atkinson's measurements from the Stereophile test, the SuperNait clipped at 140W into a 4 ohm load, and shut down producing 141W into a 2 ohm load. This is consistent with our experience that the SuperNait needs to be partnered carefully with speakers that don't tax its power supply.
However, it is not its power output that makes me believe that the pair would be mismatched. It's simply that in the time we've had the SuperNait we've found it to be one of Naim's least well-conceived products in terms of its sonic performance.
When driving difficult loads the SuperNait tends to harden and become coarse, particularly when pushed. It's slight forwardness is then exacerbated, and it loses its openness and becomes shrill. It's also one of the noisiest Naim products we've ever experienced, with mains-related hum ever-present, even when partnered with Naim's external power supplies. However, its biggest failing to us is that it lacks the 'humanity' present in models like the 122x/150 pre/power combo and the 202/200, which are placed respectively below and above it. (Please note that the pre/power combos don't offer anywhere near the features of the SuperNait, some of which a prospective buyer may find indispensable.)
From my understanding , the Magico is one of the finest cone-based loudspeakers extant, at least according to Mr. Valin, Mr. Harley and Mr. Atkinson. However, they've noted the Magico's tendency to 'brightness' when listening on axis, the flip-side to its considerable resolution and transparency, and I for one have no reason to doubt their assessment.
If this is indeed the case, and the V3 is extremely revealing of upstream components - and therefore, their foibles - I would be very reluctant to partner a noisy and somewhat forward amplifier to a speaker capable of such resolution, particularly if it was very demanding of the amplifier in question supplying clean power and current over most of its considerable bandwidth.
Unfortunately for the SuperNait, the V3's would only reveal that the amp is simply not in the same class as the speaker, and is better suited to speakers that will work with (mask?) its deficiencies, rather than expose them.
Of course, nothing will better a demo in assisting you in finding out for yourself wether your preferences are best served by the SuperNait or not.
Cheers.
Niner, thanks for your reply. I am specifically interested in learning if the Pass Labs XA100.5 amps have enough power to drive the Magico V3s sufficiently. They have 100 watts into an 8 ohm load and 200 watts into a 4 ohm load. They are pure Class A.
Dear Peterayer
As explained in a previous reply on this topic, I am driving my Magico V3's with a Pass X250.5 amplifier.
Looking at the specifiactions of both the X250.5 and XA100.5, I am pretty confident that the XA100.5 will drive the V3's at least as good as, if not better, than the X250.5. The maximum current output of the XA100.5 is 28A, which is in line with the X350,5, the bigger brother of the X250.5. The X250.5 has a maximum current output of 20A.
See thelink at http://passlabs.com/pdf/product%20lit/x.5-xa.5-amps.pdf
Kind Regards
Dirk
niner wrote:peterayer wrote:Would this be an appropriate combination or do the V3's need more power? Thanks.
Hi peterayer and tomerstin,
I work for a Naim dealer. In my opinion, the SuperNait would not be an ideal match for the Magico. I've not heard the Magico, but given its sealed-box design and low-ish impedence (mostly below 4 ohms), I don't think the two would make the best combination.
The SuperNait is mildly powerful, delivering more than its rated output into 8 ohms (89W), and has a surprising amount of gain for a single-box amp. In John Atkinson's measurements from the Stereophile test, the SuperNait clipped at 140W into a 4 ohm load, and shut down producing 141W into a 2 ohm load. This is consistent with our experience that the SuperNait needs to be partnered carefully with speakers that don't tax its power supply.
However, it is not its power output that makes me believe that the pair would be mismatched. It's simply that in the time we've had the SuperNait we've found it to be one of Naim's least well-conceived products in terms of its sonic performance.
When driving difficult loads the SuperNait tends to harden and become coarse, particularly when pushed. It's slight forwardness is then exacerbated, and it loses its openness and becomes shrill. It's also one of the noisiest Naim products we've ever experienced, with mains-related hum ever-present, even when partnered with Naim's external power supplies. However, its biggest failing to us is that it lacks the 'humanity' present in models like the 122x/150 pre/power combo and the 202/200, which are placed respectively below and above it. (Please note that the pre/power combos don't offer anywhere near the features of the SuperNait, some of which a prospective buyer may find indispensable.)
From my understanding , the Magico is one of the finest cone-based loudspeakers extant, at least according to Mr. Valin, Mr. Harley and Mr. Atkinson. However, they've noted the Magico's tendency to 'brightness' when listening on axis, the flip-side to its considerable resolution and transparency, and I for one have no reason to doubt their assessment.
If this is indeed the case, and the V3 is extremely revealing of upstream components - and therefore, their foibles - I would be very reluctant to partner a noisy and somewhat forward amplifier to a speaker capable of such resolution, particularly if it was very demanding of the amplifier in question supplying clean power and current over most of its considerable bandwidth.
Unfortunately for the SuperNait, the V3's would only reveal that the amp is simply not in the same class as the speaker, and is better suited to speakers that will work with (mask?) its deficiencies, rather than expose them.
Of course, nothing will better a demo in assisting you in finding out for yourself wether your preferences are best served by the SuperNait or not.
Cheers.
Niner,
Thank you very much for your excellent detailed reply.
Tomer
tomertsin wrote:
Niner,
Thank you very much for your excellent detailed reply.
Tomer
Tomer and peterayer,
You're both welcome.
It probably would have been more succinct to say that the old adage 'you only get out what you put in' is as equally valid in fitness as it is in high-end audio. If I was in a position to own a transducer as fine as the Magico, I'd want to partner it with as fine as front-end, amplification and ancillaries as possible.
All the best in your searches - let us know how it goes.
Cheers!
I've had the Magico V3 and the Pass XA100.5, but not at the same time. My best estimation is that the XA100.5s will drive the V3 more than adequately, but that the V3 would benefit from a higher powered amplifier.
There's a big difference between an amplifier like the Pass XA100.5 rated at 100W into 8 ohms and other amplifiers with an identical rating into 8 ohms. The Pass can double its output power as impedance is halved; it is conservatively rated; it uses 40 output transistors and a huge power transformer.
Mr. Harley: I currently own the Magico v3s and Spectral DMC-15 SHHA2 preamp and DMA100S amp. I am considering an upgrade to the DMA-360 for amplification, but I am trying to get a sense for what I will gain, given the considerable additional expense. I have seen you write that you think that this might be a near ideal combination. What in lay terms would you say are likely to be the biggest differences I would observe? The music I listen to is mostly acoustic and vocal/choral recordings. Many thanks and regards.
The DMA-360 is in a different league compared with other Spectral amplifiers. I've been listening to them daily for the past eight months, and can say that they are one of the world's great amplifiers. Their qualities are particularly tuned to the Magico V3, as I say in my full review of a complete Spectral system that appears in the February issue (which mailed to subscribers earlier this week). The DMA-360's soundstaging, dynamics, speed, and resolution of low-level detail are as good as it gets.
I'd been listening to the V3s for about a month before I drove them briefly with the DMA-360s. The Spectral amplifiers took the performance to another level.
Mr. Harley:
Thank you very much for the comments.
Has anyone tried Magico V3 with Ayre electronics? I have the K-1Xe and MX-R and wonder whether it matches the V3 (or the new V2 which I really would love to audition). Would Ayre be a bit too lean/clinical with Magico?
Thanks
Simon
Dear sims
Since about 4 weeks I am a very happy owner of the Ayre KX-R / MX-R combo, this in combination with the Magico V3's.
When I tested the Ayre amplifiers in my setup, the biggest difference were made by the MX-R, whilst the KX-R were delivering the cherry on the cake.
The Ayre combo is replacing a PassLabs combo existing of X1 pre-amp and X250.5 power amp.
So what are the main differences.
The Ayre MX-R's (supported by the pre-amp) are sounding very clear and very sweet at the same time.
This means they are absolutely the opposite of sounding clinical.
At first hearing one could think of this combination of sounding lean, but in my opinion this is absolutely not true.
It depends on your own musical taste and the music you prefer to listen to. If you are only listening to (hard) rock only and you really want to get a warm, deep sound (dare I call it bloomy ?) as you would hear it in most live rock shows, maybe, just maybe you can experience the Ayre MX-R / Magico V3 combination as sounding lean.
I can only say that I appreciate even more than before all the qualities of the Magico V3's and then some. For me the Ayre MX-R's are delivering as much bass (if not more) than the Pass Labs, but more articulated and far better controlled. I have to admit I have no real experience with the new XAxxx.5 amps of Pass Labs, since I excluded them due to heat generation of a pure class-A amplifier (I had already 'heat'problems with the X250.5 in summertime in my room) .
The only other advice I can give you is to make sure to pay attention for the cables (IC and speaker cables). I suppose you can not go wrong with Ayre's cables (as recommeded by Charles Hansen) because you can keep them very short.
I on the other hand, am using MIT Magnum MA cables both for IC's and speaker cables, and they make quite a difference with other cables I tested before, especially in bass extension (to lower frequencies and articulation).
As I reacted on Johnathan Valin's blog of December 27th "Transparent System: Further Thoughts on MartinLogan CLXes, Soulution electronics, Da Vinci turntable/arm", my new setup is sounding so musical to me that the system itself is not there anymore. There's music and only music, and that's what I have been looking for during the last 3 years.
Last but not least, if you are considering Magico speakers, give them a try in your listening room in your setup with your music. If the speakers have been played in before, you will know in maximum 10 minutes (if not less) if you like this combination or not. I guarantee you that your first impressions will not fail (fool ?) you afterwards.
Regards
Dirk
Hi Dirk,
Thank you very much for your comment. It was most helpful.
I will definitely get an audition from the local dealer and see how it plays out. Last time I heard Magico it was Mini 2 driven by FM acoustics, and I was completely mesmerised by the music that came out - unfortunately they were too expensive and too big for my room (only about 160 sq ft.). I am more keen on the new V2 given the size of my room and I really look forward to all the CES show reports and hopefully my local dealer will get a pair soon...
May I also know what kind of music you are in and how big is your room (and any acoustic treatment?). Seems like you put a lot of thought into system match (I heard Accuphase DP700 and Ayre KXR /MXR and KEF 207/2 and the balance was wonderful).
My email by the way is simshw [at] yahoo [dot] com and if you wish we can take this offline .
Thanks
Simon
I'm surprised that a Naim amplifier can't double its output at 4 ohms, considering how good their power supplies are supposed to be.
It's a rare amplifier that can double its output power into 4 ohms compared with its output power into 8 ohms. Some amplifiers that are specified to do so actually produce more than their rated power into 8 ohms. For example, the spec might read "250W into 8 ohms, 500W into 4 ohms." The amplifier might really produce 280W into 8 ohms and 500W into 4 ohms. The amplifier doubles its current delivery into 4 ohms (compared with 8 ohms) which requires massive power supplies, output stage (lots of transistors), and heat sinking.
Mr. Harley:
A follow up question on the pairing of Magicos with various amps. As I mentioned a little earlier in this thread, I am seriously considering upgrading my Spectral DMA100S amp with the Spectral DMA360 monoblocks. You were kind enough to give your advice to the effect that the DMA360s would be an excellent if not an ideal choice for the V3s. Your colleague Jonathan Valin has in the past said many very laudatory things about the Soulution 710s. Also, I see that in the CES 2009 Magico paired the M5s with Soulution electronics and this combination appears to have impressed both of you greatly. I have read that some people appear to be using Soulutions with the V3s and appear to be very happy with that combination. Do you have any observations about the Soulutions vs the Spectrals and in particular in relation to Magico V3s?
Many thanks once again
Hasan
My only experience with Soulution amplification is an audition through the Magico M5 at CES last week. From that limited experience, it's impossible to give you any meaningful insight. The two amplifiers appear at first listen to be similarly transparent and resolving.
Mr. Harley:
Thanks once again. I am listening to the V3s now with the DMA360s at home and the result is thrilling. The bass now sounds fully resolved and actually vocals in all ranges are sounding full, rounded and very real. Guitar, piano, rock bands and orchestras are highly musical - detailed and natural. You are right, the pairing of the V3 with the Spectral DMA360/DMC-15SS is unbelievably good. Huge improvement on the DMA-100S which I was using before although of course generally the same kind of sound.
Regards
Hasan
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