Magico Ultimate II Horn Loudspeaker- Following A Dream- Tom Martin
Halcro -- Sat, 10/24/2009 - 07:54
Having just received the Dec TAS issue I would like to thank and congratulate Tom Martin on his review of the Magico Ultimate speakers contained therein.
For many years, we readers of the Consumer Hi-Fi Journals have ben complaining about the lack of any real critical assessment of components which used to attract us to the original TAS and Stereophile reviews of 20 years ago.
Bland cliches and meaningless phrases are the general order of the day unless there is a 'rave review' for a product at the 'cutting edge' of sound (and price) whereby it is usually proclaimed "The Best' and 'Unrivalled' and 'Close to Perfection'.
Both types of review generally leave us readers with little real knowledge of the actual sound, its merits or any weaknesses.
Well Tom has ditched any mealy-mouthed pandering to Manufacturers and/or potential Advertisers with a review which leaves me with a distinct aural impression of the Magico Ultimate speakers which at almost $400,000 would have most reviewers (or listeners) shaking in awe at any thought of even a slight criticism.
One can ascertain that there are great aspects to these speakers as well as some limitations and compromises. There is no mistaking that it is a 'good' review and yet it also retains perspective.
If TAS has the guts to include more of these types of meaningful essays in their future issues (or at least give Tom more equipment to review), there may indeed be a bright future for TAS.
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Halcro
Do not be overly enthusiastic about the Ultimate. Magico Ultimate are very mistakably designed speakers and the whole stupid noise that industry rises around them (as well as around the whole brand) is juts solely based on the ignorance, incompetence and partially criminal intent of the industry’s pimps .
Romy The Cat
I was thinking of giving up the idea on that $1/2 mil home and invest in these babies. What an investment. Reminds me of that $80K+ Mercedes Benz ad where the family sleeps in the car at night. Hey who knows what will happen next...for all we know we'll see 15 people carrying these things up the stairs to JV's room. Although we would have a glorious review of it before its even heard by him. Hook it up with a $200K power amp, $100K CD player and Pre-amp, $80K of wire.....and you are there in the promise land. Actually initially I would drive them with $1K Odyssey Khartago...then upgrade to the $200K amp.
Sam, you need to learn to think about audio without reference to cost. It is irrelevant how expensive the solutions are. As I always say any technology in the hands of barbarian produces barbarian result and Magico Ultimate is a good illustration. Trust me, your JV with his $200K power amp, $100K CD player and Pre-amp, $80K of wire is very unfortunate person in term of Sound results. If you less pay attention to idiotic literature that those people dumps on the sackers, then you will feel how much lightweight and superficial those people and how primitive all those players are. In a few years when the stupid hi-fi industry saturate the market with Magico and move to sell to the audio-idiots another audio Messiah you go to CA, find those Magico people and ask then who were the people who were pinning for them their products in 2005-2009. What you will be able to hear will make you ears to fade. They all know each other value and they all know what they do. This play they is being played for the audio simpletons is truly amassing. Even your thinking about Magico Ultimate in context of Mercedes Benz is what they made you to think. Why? Well, ask your shrink….
The Cat
I generally do think about audio without reference to cost but some costs make my curious mind wonder. Like $24000 audio cables, like $400,000 speakers..and so on. Why I get curious or question these things rather than quietly accepting them.......may be I'll ask my Shrink whats wrong with me.
All: As long as the people have honestly earned the money, they may buy whatever they want irrespective of your view of value. Who cares what a company charges. I think it is great that people build these products. We don't teach excellence in our schools and now everyone gets a prize for attending. It is nice that audio has not followed that trend.
Romy,
But yet you use this platform, the one that was built by the " industry’s pimps" to shamelessly promote yourself, again. Some of us do know who you are. Some, unfortunately, even visited your pathetic installation and had to endure your delusional, somewhat sociopathic personality for couple of hours. It seems like jealousy still keep oozing out of you at an alarming rate. Such a pity. Imagine what you could have done with all this wasted hatred energy? Perhaps more attention to your setup so you can actually enjoy listening to music?
LOL! talk about difference of opinion. LOL......Where are all the Magico fans defending this speaker?
*** Where are all the Magico fans defending this speaker?
Ok, Sam, it is official, you are the Moron. Sorry I wasted my time on you.
The Cat
Romy, Everyone but you is a moron? hmmmm... so are you Romy or are you The Cat? and being a Cat means exactly what?
Mr. Wolf thinks that entry level price of a good loudspeaker is 28.000 $.
Mr. wolf is crazy or we have no money?
Vercesi Ferruccio, Italy
Some people certainly have that kind of money. I don't know the status of Mr. Wolf's mental health. I heard he doesn't sleep much because of speaker making.
Roman,
It was more fun to read your spews before you damaged your credibility once criticizing the Magico “port” design. It was quite clear that you have never even seen a Magico product not to mention hearing one. You most likely never even bother to read any of the reviews on the products if you didn’t even know the Magico’s have no ports. Non is worthy of your attention, I am sure, but nevertheless, here you are again (With your puppy FERRUCCIO). But this time, more pathetic then entertaining. What a shame...
....And I am sure that you will be able to point out where I made a statement that Magico is ported. My “damaged credibility” feels very comfortable against your lie and deception. Are you one of the people who “visited my pathetic installation” but “forgot” to let me about it?
Romy you are so excited and angry...not even typing completely. I had a tough time reading through one of your posts that blasted me. can you go back and edit them?
Sorry Roman but I do not keep bookmarks on all your “gems” but funny enough, one does not need to go too deep to read some of your imaginary spews. A quick Google search brought your new review of the Magico M6. You go in to detailing its horrible ribbon tweeter and the strange “flat” bass cones it uses for it’s bass drivers. Last M6 I have seen, has an AMT tweeter and regular looking bass drivers. Perhaps you are mixing the M5 with the M6? Or perhaps you can’t tell the difference between the AMTs and ribbons? Kind of difficult to keep track on all these imaginary friends of yours isn’t?
Wait a minute, I thought I was the only one advised to see a psychiatrist by these forums because I thought $400,000 for a speaker was a teeny bit too much. I guess someone else has bigger issues than I. Imaginary things and friends......sounds like delusion issues. Goodluck with your sessions.
Louis,
The different between my expression and your perception is that you look for more people to back up what you were sold into, to back up with no regards to legitimacy of claims. When I told about Magico M6 or about M5 or whatever it was I did not made specific claims about the topology of the tweeter but I described my dissatisfaction with the character of HF, the very same character that the smaller Magico and the very same smaller that the dummy TAS reviewers push to ignorant but gullible Morons as “industry absolute sound”. I very much stressed that Kaharma/Magico are very much panicle of this highly characteristic sound. Was the Magico use ribbons or Heils tweeters is absolutely irrelevant as I told: any technology in the hands of barbarian produces barbarian result - and Magico working on the demands of the dirtiest industry scams is an illustration of it. In my article I said:
“Model 6 has wrong HF. I know, I know, somebody see ribbons and they are driven immediately into multiple orgasms, feeling that ribbons do the best HF. They perhaps do but ribbons have extremely poor tonal quality. I do not know where and how Magico Model 6 employs ribbons but something that they do they do wrong as Model 6’s has too non-specific HF and the HF sound identically to all HF tones. It might be because ribbons used too low, or because the Model 6’s MF driver is too tonal-impotent at upper knee or whatever other reasons… I also feel that the Model 6’s output has approximately 2dB more HF out then it shall be… but it is the idiotic “Absolute Sound” and “Stereophile” approved standard – a playback shall shoot HF teeth-twisting amount of HF to a listener face, otherwise the listener will not recognize the “industry quality”
From what I say it is absolutely irrelevant what kind HF topology is used – they have tonal-less thin HF sound. I pay attention to topology if the demonstrated result deserves attention as far as sound concern. The sound that Model 6 demonstrated was below my interests and it was very identical to what Magico Mini had. It is below me to dig in the shit of Magico implementation and to look what was done in there. Pay attention: Magico Mini and Model 6 has absolutely different topologies for HF but identically horrible HF results. Did you think why? Read again my comments about the barbarianism of intentions – you will learn something….
Also, Louis, I did not come here to debate with you Magico 5, 6 – I have absolutely no insert about them. I made a comment about the Magico Ultimate that are ridiculously idiotically designed loudspeakers. If you look my “approval” for your Magico 5, 6 or whatever you would like to like then… I am sorry I do not grant “approvals”. Stick to the industry “reviewers” and to their crony-fools, those “advisers” will make you to feel “comfortable” with you own inadequate thinking and your own restricted feelings.
The Cat
Any bets on how long it will be before Romy is banned from this site?
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
He and his sock puppets are only "trolling thru the park."
If his English deteriorates any further, they won't have to. No one will understand him!
I think it's a case of "WOE TO THE HIGH END!!!" lol. Nobody else knows what they're talking about. It's all just one big conspiracy between "connected" manufacturers, their so-called "whores" in the industry, and well-heeled audiophiles who can't wait to open up their wallets.
EasyBigFella,
Sorry, you are wrong. I have addressed this subject multiple times: there is no big conspiracy and the concept of “conspiracy” not even close address the essence of the problem. In fact, a believe in “conspiracy” extremely simplifies the problems that lead to appearance of the Magico/TAS-type sound, but it is not the subject of this thread…
The Romy
What conspiracy? Wolf pulls the strings and JV Dances to the tunes. Wolf says Solution JV runs after that, Wolf goes oddysey JV goes yes yes I think it's great too. Every model of magico is flawless like Wilson, ARC, audio tekne....etc. When will we move away from brand worshiping?
Roman,
You sure seems to be wasting a lot of energy on something you have no interest in. Something really bothering you?? Did Alon Wolf beat you up in kindergarten? Daddy did not recognize your brilliancy? Hope you are not planning on entering politics. Lunatics like you have caused world wars you know…
Louis,
I do not see myself wasting a lot of energy; I stated my position that Macondo Ultimate is crap, not the crap for a lot of money but the caps even for $5.000 – they just an indication that the people at Macondo are absolutely clueless and with no ability of discriminate results. In response you feel a need to convince yourself and others that I was wrong before and presumably wrong now. I think you are wasting too much energy on something you have no interest in…
Yes, the lunatics like me might caused world wars but the lunatics like you have voted for them, sponsored them and made Stalin and Hitler possible – very much the same sponsoring that you do with your Macondo.
The Cat
I envy your position, Romy.
Tell me, what is it like to have designed your own amplifiers and loudspeaker system you claim better the supposed industry standards, whilst never having had those same components been subjected to any verifiable scrutiny other than your own? (Or having to make a living from it, or offer a warranty, or set up a distribution model?)
What is it like to believe you can have a valid opinion on something without ever hearing it?
And just how hard is it to throw rocks from an ivory tower which is solely the construct of your own mind, whilst spewing vitriolic rhetoric toward anyone who has an opinion that differs from yours (I think you call them "morons"...)?
I can only imagine. Living in the real world, I hope never to find out.
Hey to each their horns/ribbons/AMTs, what is your problem? that people pay good cash for "crap"? are you calling all magico owners tone-deaf idiots with more money than sense?
Somehow I doubt they are. There are highly experienced audiophiles who vouch for their performance. And you? Who are you but a crazy ranting idiot who cannot accept that we all have different preferences when it comes to the sound of music?
**** are you calling all magico owners tone-deaf idiots with more money than sense?
I do not think it did it even it is very much might be the case.
**** There are highly experienced audiophiles who vouch for their performance.
And your “highly experienced audiophiles” are mostly ignorant Morons in my book.
*** Who are you but a crazy ranting idiot who cannot accept that we all have different preferences when it comes to the sound of music?
And if you presumption is true then why do you feel that my assessment of Magico sound is invalid? If we all have different references then our preferences are inductive about our references. If we have a dinner and you eat a bowel movement as your main course then you would not be the person who whom I would talk about gourmet cooking. Still to the level of the “highly experienced audiophiles”, you are to lightweight to understand, not to mention to appreciate, my criticism about Magico.
The Cat
Romy,
Is some language other than English your native language?
I have a tendency to write you off as an either an idiot or mentally ill in some way, and unable to think, but it may be that you are thinking in another language, and having trouble translating your thoughts into English.
Am I wrong? I'm a poor writer myself, with far too many years as a "coder" and far too few years in university, but you have me flabbergasted when I try to comprehend your commentary and understand your motivations. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
If English is not your native language, perhaps you can use Google Language Tools or something similar to help you out.
Regards,
Staxguy
Roman,
Your assessment of the Magico sound is invalid due to the fact that you never heard them. As I said before, your credibility is down to zero. Go play with your imaginary friends and leave us alone. No one here care about what you have to say.
Post of the day!
Unfortunately, Roman will not go away by himself. These are the kind of posts he thrives on. The only attention he can get these days is by being as provocative as it gets. A total waste of time. Wonder who moderate this site.
Excellent , DonB, another excellent post from you. This is a perfects layout how “publicity” is crated in today’s hi-fi. As usually: no one of the local “intellectuals” are able engage the subject of the specific “Magico Ultimate” design problems but the same crony dirt is very egger to declare anything they do not want to hear as “anathema”. Very predictable patter and very recognizable…. A very good illustration of the Magico Club!
Romy teh Cat
>>A very good illustration of the Magico Club<<
Jealousy takes you nowhere Romy the deaf and dumb cat.
curious1,
It is exactly my point. Among all human sentiments you chose to blame me in “jealousy” as in your primitive audio mind there is no other spectra of feelings what you use what you think about audio. I am sure that if all your life you live as a rapist then you would perceive ported design only as a opportunity to exercise “naturalness”. I have finished with you. I also jealous of you – for the unique people like you life is easy to explain – no different than explain life to the above-mentioned rats.
The Cat
Dear Romy:
We try to allow many voices on AVGuide, guided by our general distaste for censorship and a conservative sensibility about moderating discussions. But you are clearly violating the AVGuide user policy, which you have agreed to, specifically:
"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any
messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful,
demeaning, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."
I'll put it simply: stop violating the user agreement. You are welcome to continue the discussion in civil tones. I would also suggest you start your own thread, since much of what is above it off topic.
Gadgetman
AVGuide.com moderator
AVGuide webmaster and general drudge
It seems to me that it is difficult to comment on the Magico Ultimate II because so few people have heard it, let alone own it. I have heard the Magico Mini 2 and the V2. The V2 was well set up and sounded incredible. I can only imagine what the company is capable of with little or no cost constraints.
Interesting how most conversations with Roman leads to Hitler eventually. All kidding aside, there are many signs in his behavior/writing that points out to a serious mental illness. Indeed a sad thing. Perhaps someone should get notified. We do not want to feel guilty for not pointing this guy out before hand once he goes postal somewhere.
Someone from TAS please take care of this guy!
well well
Roman Bessnow once again spreading his hatred and online terrorism, now here on AV guide forum. And one more time insulting people, and making his moronic criticism about speakers he has never heard by himself. It was BTW. sooo cute to see how touched he was , when someone at a Australian forum was talking about how ugly his horn speakers are, trying to defend its design, and explain, why he thinks they are beautiful ( they are actually a pile of ugly looking horns ) lined up with one main criteria, his time alignment paranoia. He thinks, if the channels are not time aligned, the system falls short, forgetting, that the whole horn philosophy has its physical limits, and there are characteristics and shortcomings of horns, that cannot be overcome. And these topology limits determine much more than time alignment or anything else the performance of horns. Someone can take the finest compression drivers, select the ones that integrate best, the best elaborated horn profile and material, do the right crossover choices and tweaking, and what you will get , is a typical horn characteristic. It is not better of worse than the one of direct radiators, its juts different, in the end a issue of personal preferences and taste. Since i have a horn system of similar topology, and almost identical drivers of his, and i heard the Magico Ultimos at Bob Nachtigalls home in San Francisco,
http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455
i may be one of the only guys that knows what i am talking about. What Mr.Bessnow has at his home, is NOT better than Magico Ultimo's ( and therefor does not give him the morals to think so high about his speakers and system, and when it comes to expertise of horn building, there are far more advanced designers with in depth knowledge around ) . Good Horn systems have tremendous clarity, authority, dinamics, some drivers good tone colors and precision, but are as a negative consequence more tiring after a certain time of listening, even if the upper range is not aggressive, and lack of horn coloration. That is why many people do prefer direct radiating speakers over horns.
What disturbs me most of Magico are the ridiculous prices, which are justified with arguments, that are made up. And it seems the reviewers of TAS do not bother. So i alerted Robert Harley at the M5 thread about the false propaganda of employment of Nanotubes at Magico cones,
http://www.avguide.com/forums/magico-m5-loudspeakers?page=4
Robert
Magico claims that the cones of the M5 use carbon nanotubes. How comes, if these are still in the laboratory of chinese researchers, in development, and do have absolutely nothing to do with normal speaker cones, but are thin sheets and films ?
http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/chinese-researchers-create-speaker-...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15098?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=specrt14...
but the information was not only ignored, but also published at the Alon interview of TAS October. That is a big question point about the seriousity of TAS , and Magico.
Angelo
I think you need to read again these articles. They are talking about a completely different technology, Nanotube sheets are generating sound waves,where Magico cones are imbedded with nanotubes to increase stiffness. Two completely different things all together.
Magico cones are imbedded with nanotubes to increase stiffness. Two completely different things all together.
So how do you know this, beside Magico propaganda ?
http://www.physorg.com/news10452.html
Nano has officially become the most misused word in the English language. Everything from the Ipod Nano to anything smaller than a Mac truck gets “nanoed” by clueless – or savvy, take your pick – marketing experts. It’s crept into everyday use as well: “I’ll be there in a nano.” Sure you will.
I would like to see something, that convinces, that Mr. Wolf does not use " Nano " just as propaganda tool........ specially from TAS reviewers. Otherwise, this is a indication that everything they are told, they do not check, and print it, if true or not, is not important.....
I think a reasonable price for the M5 is more like USD40,000 to 45,000. the rest is pure premium for the name. But who am I to argue with the market forces? Romy the Cat is just an ignoramus who hates to see others doing well. Lowest of the low!
For those who are interested in the stimulus for Halcro's OP, here is the origin of what I wrote in TAS about the Magico Ultimates:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/first-release-listening-horns-magico-ultimat...
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
Well ROMY,
i see that it took you a-while to get to AVGUIDE......i guess you're running out of forums eh! From Madisound to Parts-Express to Audio Asylum, etc you just keep spewing the same garbage ..never a constructive argument.
On the topic at hand i think that arguments about pricing and market forces are ambiguous in of themself..for the simple reason that within this capitalist structure we have agreed to subscribe to a concept of market forces and thus ALON, YG,Wilson, etc are free to engage in their pricing approach..what you as an audiophile has a right to do is decide not to indulge. Having said that i believe what gets lost when the voice of Monetary Value gets abnoxiously loud - as it has in this thread - is the issue of Product Value - not - Product cost.
i say this to lead in my argument. I'm going to use Magico & YG in my observation. I've had the opportunity to listen to both Magico's ang YG's speakers. Having owned quads, etc i know what transparency means ...but upon hearing both these speakers.. i admit that i had never heard truer transparency to sources in a speaker. These guys have literally opened up a new dimension in Audio in the area of reductionj of distortion in the speaker realm.....and that to me is no joking matter. What is even more important is the crossover topology utilized by these two companies. YG does things strictly by measurements whereas WOLF uses a mix of measurements and personal taste. In fact i thibk that's what seperates the two in how they sound..with YG you get a full-out transparent presentation which in my limited experience is excellent for a short time but gets a little in--your-face over the long haul..whereas WOLF sort of attenuates the transparency some.but i believe that given the latitude that his elliptical crossovers allow..he's able to achieve that mellowing of the presentation while still sounding highly transparent...Now ROMY if that isn't an achievement then i don't know what is. And so fo me...when an individual can achieve such advances in an art..i applaud their effort ..as to thier pricing..my only concern is 'CAN I AFFORD IT... if i can then that's great..if not then i'll just visit the dealer a lkittle more often to quelch my appetite. So! Do i wish YG and Magico were cheaper? Sure! But does their higher pricing mean that Wolf, etc are conspirators, etc..bullshit. The important thing to me is they've created a product ....that's good, that my friends..is good enough for me. As for ROMY..don't worry...you'll soon be moving on to some other forum.....its just a matter of time.
Transparency relative to what? Unless you engineered the recording, you have no idea how it should sound. Your notion of transparency is just a perception influenced by what you've read in magazines and on the internet.
I think he meant that since he owned Quads, he knows everything about transparency. And most magazines say that Quads are some of the most transparent. But Quads are Electrostats, owning them reflects what on the evaluation of Magico or YG? Zead are you an audio reviewer/writer?
Zead wrote: "But does their higher pricing mean that Wolf, etc are conspirators, etc"
No one really knows if there is any shady stuff going on. May be not, may be yes...who knows... But sure looks like Wolf has hit a gold mine with ALL of his products. Anything that comes out of his mouth is glorious in TAS weather its a $1K amp or a $400,000 speaker. And although the pricing is off the charts...they are surely building a strong resume specially with TAS.....Magazine adds, out of this world ratings on every produts Wolf points to or makes, and listed in the best of the best of shortlists, recommended products, POY, GE and any award you can imagine. It sounds like a breakthrough in speaker designs just like the switch to HD TV, or High Rez audio, Windows, cell phones. I hope they can continue this for many years to come and that its not a short lived quick in and out procedure of collect your money and run. I surely hope they can build a long lasting impression on the audio world. First the best box speakers, then the best horns, who knows next they might blow away the electrostatic world with a groundbreaking design.
Sam -- I suppose you wrote the above somewhat casually, but my read of Halcro's post is that he is commenting on the fact that TAS didn't give an unequivocal rave to the Magico Ultimates. On top of that, the review goes on at length about the idea of "the best" being bankrupt. My point is that your characterization of Magico's status in TAS and the world doesn't square IMHO with the review at hand. Roy Pan (below) seems to agree as he takes Martin to task for not raving.
Yes, my view was casually speaking in general of the brand. Also
"The Ultimate II s are completely
and utterly exceptional. If you
prefer they are revolutionary,
stunning, amazing. They do
things I haven’t heard any other
speaker do".
This statement raves just a little bit. unless the reviewer has not heard that many speakers.