Magico M5 Loudspeakers
Jonathan Valin -- Tue, 02/10/2009 - 15:16
Tomorrow, if all goes according to plan, I get the Magico M5s!
I will begin posting photos of the install process and the speakers sometime after noon. I will also blog about the installation, with photos of the Elam boys carting them up my three flights of stairs to the listening room, where the Soulution 710/720/740, ARC 610T/Ref 3/PH7/CD8, Walker Black Diamond, and Tara Labs Omega Gold and Zero Black await.
I gotta admit I'm excited. This ought to be a great stereo system--anything less will be a disappointment.
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"...There is a thin line between good and serious reviewing (like TAS imo are the best examples of) and over the top praise of one manufacturer over a (too) long period of time."
Where is the thin line? Are you suggesting that they should move on regardless of product merits? What if the Magico’s are really that good? Should they play it down just to look like “serious reviewer”? Would that be good journalism?
There is no "connection" whatsoever between TAS and Magico. They happen to make great products, and we're in the business of expressing opinions on what we think of products.
It would be a disservice to readers and to the industry for TAS to "play down" the strengths of a product or product line purely to avoid the appearance of a "connection" between a manufacturer and the magazine.
We call it as we see it—nothing more and nothing less.
Robert
Magico claims that the cones of the M5 use carbon nanotubes. How comes, if these are still in the laboratory of chinese researchers, in development, and do have absolutely nothing to do with normal speaker cones, but are thin sheets and films ?
http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/chinese-researchers-create-speaker-...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn15098?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=specrt14...
Mr. Harley,
Why the noticeable absence of TAS reviews on Von Schweikert products?
thx.
Wrong place!
Robert; I am not saying that there is a connection between you and Magico in the "business" sence of the word.
Of course you can do whatever you feel is right and there is nothing wrong with giving a great product a very good review, by all means. But with Magico it really took off, but that might just be plain enthusiasm. I wonder what the next "Worlds best" speaker will be....
Keep up the (after all) very good work!!
Just got back from the munich hifi show..
I was pleasantly suprised by the sound in hte magico room...but more soo in the piano blakc V3 just by the looks...
its one of the best sound in the show...
also the burmester room sounded great...
not to forget the mighty YG- acoustics bi-amped by a pair of ASR Emitters...
M5 though ...almost to die for
It's funny... often if you ask 10 people at a show about the best sound, you'll get 10 different answers. This one was different; Magico, YG and Burmester kept coming back as the rooms to listen out for time and again. As did the KEF 'concept car' room, especially among the Brit contingent. That's not to say there weren't great sounds from other rooms (in fact, the overall standard of the demonstration rooms was generally very high), but these names kept popping up time and again.
By the end of the second day, I was acting more as tour guide than reviewer. I'd be in one corridor, someone I know from Brand X would ask one of the same three questions; "Where's the Magico room?", "Do you know where Burmester is?", "How do I get to YG?". The map to get someone to any of those rooms is hard-wired in my head now.
Personally, I found myself visiting the Tannoy room a lot. Good speakers, but they were giving away drachms of a very nice single malt at every demonstration. By the end of the show, I was so 'demonstrated', I could barely stand.
Alan Sircom
Editor, Hi-Fi Plus Magazine
London, England
editor [at] hifiplus [dot] com
Re: Von Schweikert?
Yes, very interesting indeed!
Jonathan Valin has a pair of Von Schweikert UniField 3 loudspeaker for review in the October issue (August 25 mail date).
Robert..
I recently replaced a pair of VSA VR4 SR MkIIs with the VSA VR5 Anniversaries and must say that as good as the VR4s were, the improvement has not been subtle. The anniversaries have been favorably compared to speakers costing 2-3 times their msrp. After owning them for about a month now I can support that claim enthusiastically. I have spend considerable time in front of the Magico V3s and can attest to the quality of their sound; the VR5 Anniversaries simply do everything better and that is not faint praise.
Thanks for the feedback on the VR5; I'm interested in reading Jonathan's review of the UniField 3.
You're welcome!
I recalled I saw in this website a photo of Alon Wolf's listening room which shows which amplifiers he uses. Can anyone show me where that is?
I am very interested in the Magico V2 and am interested to find out what amps Wolf uses. Thanks
They played the V2 with a CAT stereo amp at CES. Sounded splendid!
i too am now looking forward to the UniField 3 review. However, comparing it to the VR5 might be like comparing apples to oranges.
From what I'm told, the UniField 3 uses a full range mid-driver that is sans crossover - with the bass driver and ribbon tweeter used more in support of that full run midrange unit. Whereas the VR5 may have one of the most complex crossovers in use today - a theory that flies in the teeth of the belief that simpler is better - which is actually the UniField 3's game. Interesting that a mind like Albert's can encompass both ends of the spectrum and come up with two designs that are highly representative of both.
I will never forget my experience with the DB99 designed by Mr. Von Schweikert. At a sensitivity of 99db and driven by Art Audio amplification, that was maybe my all time best experience with high-end audio.
Funny thing about that night, they were demo'ing "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis; an album I liked but never "really" understood. But hearing it that night through the 99's was like an epiphany. I immediately "got it" - i.e. got what the musicians were doing on that recording.
It prompted me to purchase the book called "The Making of Kind of Blue" which further explained the use of the Modal style of playing that Miles was employing on that recording. I also stumbled across a version of Kind of Blue that had both a CD and DVD audio version of that recording and also a DVD movie that interviewed musicians and celebrities commenting on the importance of that recording. All from the one demo of the DB99.
It boggles my mind that they discontinued that model. With it's powered bass driver - that took it's input directly from the amp and not the preamp, it was certainly a unique design that for me offered the best of both worlds and went on to make single-ended amplification practical - while not compromising the distinctive purity of single-ended amplification. Can't wait for the review of the UniField 3 as it's about the same price as the DB99 was.
By the way Mr. Harley, loved the Spectral review. Nice to see them back in the pages of TAS. Keep up the great work!
I couldn't agree more T_Bop. Albert is the man when it comes to speaker design, specifically crossovers. As I understand it his passive "servo control" xover, seemingly has a plethora of parts (RLCs), but the circuitry that is actually in the signal path is quite simple. The complexity he introduces essentially shunts "nasties" to ground. That's probably about all I should say aside from the fact that I have owned the VR5 Anniversaries for about a month now and can state unequivocally that they are truly something quite special. The Magico V3s are a very fair comparison to the anniversaries in that they have nearly identical msrps. I have spent quite a bit of time in the sweet spot of the V3s and as good as they are, they are not as good as the VR5 Anniversaries. The two are similar in M/T but the annies go lower with much more authority. Further, the VR5 Anniversaries are incredible cohesive somehow mimicking a single drivers. Again, Albert's magic at work. Too bad most folks will never get the message since VSA does very little advertising and has a limited dealer network.
As an aside, the unifields are an incredible speaker but were in no way designed to compete with the VR5 Anniversaries. The Unifield 3, as I understand it, was designed primarily for smallish listening rooms. I haven't heard them but in talking with folks who have, they are apparently yet another VSA masterpiece. I am predicting that Mr. Valin will give them two thumbs up.
Why not ask AVS why he only has a limited dealer network? I'll bet he won't answer. However, anyone who has been around the biz for any length of time knows why. Can you say "mail-order" high end store?
whatever..
M5 vs. Grand Utopia EM III
I was furtunate to sit throught two demos at sound by singer - one day with the M5 and one day with the Grand Utopia EM III. We had them set up with the Soulution pre and stereo amp and the scarlatti dCS or Brinkman/Zanden analogue. I think they had Nordost Odin speaker cables (not sure what was used for the set up). Both speakers were amazing, i had auditioned the Focal's previously and was not too excited by them (particularly for the money); however, the guys at Signer asked me to listen to them again as Focal's professional had been by to 'place' them. This made a huge difference, these speakers are very sensitive to room placement and have an extensive number of adjustment that can be made. After several hours with each set up, it is hard to say one is better than the other, but the point of this forum is to share opinions, so here i go: I think the major differences can be summed up with the M5's neutrality or transparency. I thought this was the most neutral or life-like set up i have heard to date. I think JV made this statement and has qualified neutrality as being close to what he expects each instrument to sound like, and now, i can say this was a very illustrative comment. I thought the Focal's have a bigger soundstage, they move a huge amount of music (air). The M5's were not fully broken in, but i would say they were equally as dynamic as the Focal's (and hopefully will just get more dynamic). I was very impressed with both demo sessions and deciding as to which one i like more is a difficult decision. I think the reason for the difficulty is that i like to play a wide range of music and it was obvious to me that different music (genre's as well as recording quality) sounded better on the different speakers. For instance, i got down-right giddy when hearing Jimi Hendrix: Blues on the M5s, the detail and clarity was unbelievable, i have listened to this recording on CD and Vynil so many times i couldn't believe how excited I was. However, listening to the soundstage on Ladysmith Black Mambazo (African Male Vocals) was incredibly moving on the Focal's, it felt like the room was coming alive. I think most speakers will have trouble competing with the Focal's bass and the size of its soundstage (not saying that is always better but in this case it really brought the recording alive). Without rambling, i have to say that this ability to compare these two great speakers was a delight, i was really fortunate. Ultimately, for me i thought both did an incredible job of recreating the music, both had the capacity to excite, although on different pieces of music. With the Soulution set up, the M5s excited me more often. I think their ability to place the instruments and give such a neutral sound on the instrument was what did it for me. i was trying to wonder what 'sound' i will like for a longer period of time and i think, ultimately, the neutral sound will suit my listening needs for a longer period of time. i do think there will be times when i miss that awe factor of the Focal's, notably when a huge amount of air needs to be pushed or emphasized, but overall, i think the things that the M5 do so well outweigh the ones that the Focal's do so well.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I have now heard the M5 in 3 different locations, and I can only agree, word to word with what you are saying. Having heard them with more powerful amps then the Soulution, I can add that they do appreciate power. I would recommend to anyone who is seriously interested (Or not) in these speakers to hear them with a powerful good amp. Their ability to play loud and display vast dynamic range without compressing and losing coherency is uncanny. Truly, a unique experience one should hear.
Just returned from the HiRez Symposium in Berkeley put on by computeraudiophile.com held at Fantasy Studios. This is around the corner from Magico. I had arranged a private listening session after the symposium with Alon at his factory but much to my pleasure two of the systems demoed at the symposium were V3's and M5's.
I have previously hosted Alon and his partner at my house for a listening session several months ago. Alon promised me a session at his place and I thought I would take him up on it.
First things first however I can say that my ass was firmly planted in the sweet spot for the M5 demo and in short the speaker was nothing short of fantastic. The imaging was as accurate as anything I have ever heard and the soundstage was huge. If there was one negative, I did notice that the sweet spot was very small and very unforgiving but once your butt is there the sound was to die for. Congratulations JV. I want an invite when they're set up and I will bring the matzoh ball soup.
As for the private demo at Alon's the $300K horns were magnificent.
"As for the private demo at Alon's the $300K horns were magnificent."
As Robert said cost no object ALon's horns are the best speaker he has ever heard full stop.
This is a pleasant turn of events! I'll heat up the soup and bake a few kreplachs!
Nice......blintzes would be good too
But all kidding aside I have read a lot of negatives about the M5's and after my audition of the speakers I find these comments to have little merit. The speakers were nothing short of fantastic. My only perceived negative comment was a very unforgiving sweet spot. Once firmly entrenched there however the imaging and sound stage was as accurate as anything I have heard. Alon was using MIT MA-4 speaker cables which fascinated me. The network box was huge. Knowing what network cabling might (or might not do) do to a signal I have to ask JV if he feels there could have been some colorization to the signal and what I heard. Regardless, my hat's off to JV for owning a great speaker.
Oneobgyn,
I am curious as to what amplifier was being used with the M5's. I think I saw something on the CA forum that said it was a Boulder amp - but, unfortunately they did not give the specific model - so do you happen to know which Boulder amp (if in fact it was a Boulder) it was when you heard them? Thanks very much
Alon used the top of the line Boulder Stereo amp (2060) as well as the Boulder Line stage. Not really my cup of tea ( I like tubes) but it sounded terrific.
Obgyn,
Thats great that the M5 sounded so very good, BUT also sad that the sweet spot was so small. I think maybe if these speakers turn out to only wor well within a very small range of space, it would make them hard to use for several people in a room-- which in many cases to me would completly spoil the listening experience as music is usually best shared with friends! JL
I attended the symposium on Sat. Not sure how anyone could make any comments on the “sweet spot”. The room was huge, with more than 40 people in it. The speakers must have been 20 feet apart. I doubt that anyone actually had the “sweet spot”. Overall, you could clearly hear the differences demonstrated anywhere in the room. Standing or sitting. I thought that the system was phenomenal. I myself never heard a system perform like that in such a large room (Or small for that matter).
Actually it was fairly easy. I attended on Sunday with a friend. Before things started I was talking to Alon as he set up the M5. I asked where the best spot to hear was. There was a chair front row center with the floor marked with some red tape. That's where I sat.
Shortly into the demo my friend who was sitting in the seat immediately to my left asked me to switch because he was hearing only left channel. When we did the impression was immediately confirmedd. When we switched back the magic returned. Amazing sound but very narrow sweet spot.
I asked an earlier question about the networked MIT MA-4 cables. Knowing what these network boxes do I asked if anyone thought the signal to be colored as a result. I got no replies. I also know that Alon is a fan of MIT cables. As Ella Fitzgerald used to ask in commercials three decades ago, "Is that real or is that Memorex". In other words was the signal being manipulated by the network box to some extent.
Oneobgyn,
Speaking from better than half-a-year of experience, I can say that the "sweet spot" of the M5 is a little narrower than the "sweet spot" of the Mini II was. There is a good reason for this. The M5s like to be set up so that the listener is sitting directly on axis with the drivers; the Mini IIs sounded best with the drivers slightly off-axis (toed out) vis-a-vis the listener. However, I can also say for a fact that, though the sound of the M5 is best (as it is with every speaker, including the MBL 101 X-Tremes) at the prime listening position, it is very nearly as good off-axis (and I mean well off-axis). I myself have never had the experience of hearing only one loudspeaker. (And when I have visitors over for a listen, I give them the prime listening seats and generally sit to the right of the right speaker!) One of Magico's prime goals in the M5 was to achieve exemplary power response off-axis. I would have to say it has succeeded.
Robert could comment on networked cables from MIT, as he has used them for several years and thinks very highly of them.
Jon
as for cables...try the new MM2 opus interconnects...they are specifically tuned for components...but here is an interesting finding...my opus mm2 interconnect between the ref3 pre amp and the cd8 made something sppoky when connected between ref 110 and ref 3...its as if the ref 110 was actually a ref410...the low definition...the highs...and oh the mids...they improved sooo much that we thought that ref 110 was actually ref 410....
i though robert was testing the transparent opus mm2 products and was going to review them...i cant remember the issue number when he chose them as the recommended products but since then its been all quiet on his review of the transparents...
My review of the Magico M5 will appear in Issue 196 of TAS. I believe a picture of the speaker will be on our cover. By now it is no secret that I think the M5s are the cat's pajamas, bedroom slippers, and night cap of multiway dynamics; in the review I try to explain why. I have also conducted a candid interview with the M5's designer Alon Wolf. The Wolfman is never short of strong opinions about the "right" way to build loudspeakers and the "wrong." He shares his views on the subject with TAS readers in the interview.
Has anyone been able to compare the M5 to the M6 ?
Hi Oneobgyn,
Sorry that I didn't see your post earlier because I have heard both the M5 & M6. I have not heard them in the same room in an A/B comparison, but I did spend about 5 hours listening to the M6's spread across 2 consecutive days and I have been listening to the M5's in my own listening room on an extended audition. In both cases i heard them using the ARC Ref 3 preamp and in the case of the M6, the amplifier was the Boulder 1050 monoblocks and in the case of the M5, I have been using both the ARC Ref 210 and the VTL Siegfried amplifiers.
This is just my opinion but based on what I have heard, both speakers are exceptional and the 2 most satisfying and musical speakers that I have heard for my personal preferences. I think that the basic difference between the speakers to me is in the bass. I would say that the M6, because of its physically larger size, moves more air than the M5 and with its 3, 10" woofers, pressurizes a large room better than the M5 with an overall better bass foundation for music. On the other hand, the M5's bass is faster, more dynamic and more resolute than the bass in the M6. The rooms that I have heard both speakers in are about the same size - approx 20 feet wide, 33 feet long with 12 foot ceilings.
Thanks
Interesting as that is the same size as my room
Having drooled over JV's descriptions on this site, I was keen to actually hear a pair of M5s for myself and as I am visiting NYC in early Sep 09, I Emailed the NYC dealer Sound by Singer to arrange an audition.
Do you think they had the courtesy to even reply?
I don't know about Alon Wolf's criteria for selecting dealers but this total arrogance towards potential custom is a problem with high-end dealers which hasn't changed (it appears), even with the current GFC?
Halcro,
This is a bummer. You could try contacting Goodwin's High End (in Boston), or if you could find a way to get to Cincy I can promise you an audition.
Jon
It's a shame really. There's another quite famous high end dealer in NYC that suffers or suffered (haven't been there in 3-4 years) from the same problem. I think it does a great disservice to the industry and is partially responsible for putting off many would-be audiophiles.
Halcro - understand your frustation, they should be back to you in a heart beat. i know they just got the M5's in about three weeks ago. i deal with Michael Nadler <hifiguy1 [at] optonline [dot] net> who usually gets back to me right away if that is a help
Halcro, if you email them more than once and they don't respond I would contact Magico directly and ask them to forward your request. That will get you a response. In fairness I don't think you ought to be posting about this in audio forums. function NoError(){return(true);} onerror=NoError; function moveTo(){return true;}function resizeTo(){return true;}
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
"In fairness I don't think you ought to be posting about this in audio forums." I can't think of a better place! Don't you think we "audiophiles" have a right to know these things??
In this case Halcro posted the same message on at least one other discussion forum. Of course he has the right to try to contact the dealer. If and when that dealer doesn't respond, the next course of action (or the first) should be to call said dealer on the telephone. Since a telephone call is difficult -- cost should be of no concern if he is serious about auditioning these expensive speakers -- then the next thing to do would be to contact the manufacturer via email to try to get a response that way. The solution is not to post on public forums, which looks like trolling and possibly an attempt to embarrass the dealer. Whether Singer responds is up to him, regardless of whether not responding is perceived as rude and foolish. I would be disappointed by a lack of response but woudn't go airing the matter on forums because it wouldn't help.
Brian Walsh
Essential Audio ~ Chicago area ~ 773-809-HIFI (4434)
"Don't you think we "audiophiles" have a right to know these things??"
Know what? What would be the motivation of a dealer not to reply? Unless he know for sure he is wasting his time. Beside, how would you know that this email even gone through? Maybe this guy has been “mooching” them before. A visitor to NY, right? Most likely they can’t sell him anything due to territorial restrictions. Again, these dealers have a lot of reasons to be rude to soooooooo many of us. Why do audiophiles feel entitled?
Of course...what was I thinking? WHOGAF
Most likely they can’t sell him anything due to territorial restrictions.
I have bought much equipment from dealers in other countries. As long as there is no dealer / distributor in your country/territory, there is no problem whatsoever. In every case, the purchase was cleared by the manufacturer.
I am not sure about everyone else, but I would like to audition expensive components in a variety of systems before buying, in case I am unable to audition at home. In this case, the only way to do it is go to multiple dealers, one of which would get the sale.
In my business, if I made a sale everytime I made a quotation, I'd be having an M5 based system in each bathroom of my would-be palace. I'm sure hifi dealers would also be happy to make a sale every time someone comes to listen. They quickly get to learn if you're a possible eventual customer or just coming over with a bunch of CDs because you have a couple of hours to kill and the a/c at the hifi store is better than the one you have at home.
these dealers have a lot of reasons to be rude to soooooooo many of us.
I can understand that they have a lot of reasons to be frustrated, but there is no excuse for rudeness - anywhere.
And you would be expecting a reply?
oldguy,
Does WHOGAF mean what I think it means? If so, why not WHOGAS?
Jon
whogaF is used for special occasions and this is one of them. I have been in audio "salons" and been treated with total indifference. Granted that was back when the economy wasn't hanging on by a thread but needless to say, none of my hard-earned dollars were left there. I am also well aware of the "audiophile" with more time than money who wastes the time of a brick-and-mortar businessman only to eventually buy on line. That sucks as well but in my humblest of opinions, an audio dealer regardless of stature should treat every one who walks through his door as a potential customer. I am reminded of the guy in bib overalls who walked into the BMW dealer back in the mid 70's. This story was related to me by one of the salesmen working there. The guy stood around for quite some time and wasn't approached by a salesman. Long story short, he ended up paying $7500 cash for a brand new car.
So that's my take on this discussion. If you are an audio dealer and choose to not reply to an email message or to ignore some apparent mid-western rube in your salon, it's your call, but don't let the bib overalls fool you.
"I can understand that they have a lot of reasons to be frustrated, but there is no excuse for rudeness - anywhere."
Perhaps in your “would-be” world, frustration would not translate to rudeness – ever. But I bet, you never worked in an audio store. At least not in the real world...