Is Magico giving false measurements?
default -- Thu, 07/02/2009 - 19:48
I just took a look at Soundstages measurements of the new Magico V2 loudspeaker and I was a little shocked that there measurements where so far off from what Magico posts. Magico says they are 89db sensitive but they measured only 86db. They also gave their specified frequency range of 32Hz to 40KHz. I understand they do not list what db that is at but if you look at Soundstages measurements they show around 55Hz at -3db and a ruff top end. I am getting very tired of speaker manufacturers giving such misleading measurements in order to miss lead customers into purchasing their speakers. I guess my real question is: is it OK for a company to give such misleading measurements in order to make their speakers more attractive? And at $18,000!!!
Another disappointed audiophile.
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This is a truly bizarre and deliberately misleading misinterpretation of Soundstage's (which is to say, the National Research Council of Canada's) measurements of the V2, which were extraordinarily impressive across the board. That astonishing THD+N chart (#3) really stopped me cold. Good Lord, man, this speaker has lower distortion than many phonostages! The distortion numbers are literally "off the chart." In addition, you're completely ignoring Doug Schneider's (the reviewer's)--who is a hard-sell when it comes to expensive speakers--conclusion: "It may carry a five-digit price tag, but the V2 is more than a mere status trophy--it’s a true audiophile-grade performer with an overall sound quality that makes it the best passive loudspeaker I’ve ever reviewed." (See soundstage.com/equipment/magico_v2.htm.)
who gives a rats ass about the measurements... stop staring at the specs of any component and listen and hear for yourself...i have the v3 and it sounds much better than anything that i have heard...truth of the matter is we LISTEN to music...not to the specs...listen and enjoy instead of comparing specs....
This is clearly some sort of provocative remark. Kinda funny actually. It seems like Magico is stepping on many toes lately. I found the review an excellent read. I can almost “hear” the Magico sound between the lines. The V2 sounded superb at the last CES. I actually do care about measurements, but if I was a competitor, and knew a thing or two about loudspeakers (What a concept…), I would not necessarily point out to these particular measurements. They are simply superb in just about all areas…
I'd like to add the V2s have excellent bass, much better than expected. As the reveiw points out, the bass is not as impactful as larger speakers within the $18k region deliver, but I'd say the bass is much more like a full floorstander than a monitor with "great bass". Plus you get bass that is incredibly articulated and not boomy at all.
One other comment, the highs are much like the bass, you don't get quite the extension, impact or ambiance retrieval of some larger more costly designs (ie. V3s). I think this quality makes the V2 a very well rounded speaker, and you get pretty close to the V3 for $9k less. Only in a direct comparison to the V3 do obvious differences start to jump out at you.
As far as the measured sensitivity is concerned, the review is spot on again, all Magicos like power. The V2 and V3 seemed comparable, so don't expect the V2 to be any easier to drive...
That astonishing THD+N chart (#3) really stopped me cold. Good Lord, man, this speaker has lower distortion than many phonostages! The distortion numbers are literally "off the chart."
Impressive? Maybe. Unique? Not by a long shot!
The PSB Synchrony Ones have even better THD+N measurements (also done for Soundstage by the NRCC) above 100 Hz:
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/psb_synchrony_one
at one quarter the price.
The YG Anat on the other hand measures a lot worse in the THD+N department (same Soundstage/NRCC protocol):
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/yg_anat_ref_main_...
at almost twice the price of the Magicos.
So let's keep things into perspective.
"Impressive? Maybe. Unique? Not by a long shot! "
It is actually quite unique considering the fact that these are a 2-way sealed design. Keep in mind that these drivers are not “sharing” their output at low freq. with a port. They are working a lot harder (And going lower) than the woofers in typical ported designs. The other sealed loudspeakers THD measurements I have seen on SS site , the YG and the Paradigm Reference Signature S1 v.2 (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_signature_s1_v2.htm), both have MUCH higher THD then the V2. Regardless, the V2 THD is still lower than just about any other speaker, ported or not, on SS smeasurement site.
Impressive? For sure. Unique? By a long shot!
I hadn't seen the PSB THD+N numbers--they are impressive!
Roy Pan has probably not noticed that I very specifically stated "above 100 Hz" when referring to the PSB THD figures. So he chose to comment on the small part of the frequency spectrum I expressly excluded, and ignore the larger part of the frequency spectrum that I explicitly commented on. Of course it is his, and anyone's, prerogative to comment on whatever crosses their mind, however irrelevant.
He is correct nevertheless in pointing out that, generally speaking, reflex alignments result in lower excursion demands around port resonance and this usually translates to reduced harmonic distortion. Driver linearity in the bass is obviously a far more complex issue, and it's a pity that more NRCC measurements are not available so that many different models may be compared within the same protocol. This way it could be ascertained whether his bold claim about the Magico's uniquely low distortion in the bass is true or not. ATC, for one, have been on this very matter for decades, with pretty darn impressive results. It's not rocket science after all. It can be somewhat more expensive, but not outrageously so.
When all things are considered, the prerequisites for low bass distortion from an electrodynamic woofer are a large radiating surface, a strong magnet and a large volume of air behind the driver. The laws of physics say as much. Precise and consistent manufacturing is also paramount. Sigfried Linkwitz has a comprehensive yet terse analysis (and synthesis) on his website.
spaNNer,
You are right, I missed the "above 100 Hz" part. However, I would not dismiss my comment as “irrelevant” mainly because the "above 100 Hz" is the easier part to get right. THD, above 1.5K, have a lot to do with the type of tweeter used. It does not necessarily has much to do with the “design quality”. Silk domes tend to have higher THD then metal, but at the same time their breakups are much more manageable. Still, I do not believe I made any bold claims. I simply pointed out to the fact that the “the V2 THD is still lower than just about any other speaker, ported or not, on SS measurement site.” I said on “SS measurement site. You are welcome to do a quick statistical analysis of their findings. Unique and impressive for a 2-way sealed loudspeaker. Indeed. I do agree on one point, “it's a pity that more NRCC measurements are not available so that many different models may be compared within the same protocol.” I also wonder, why Stereophile is not publishing THD measurements, as I would think they are just as (maybe more) important as anything else they are measuring.
Yet no one seems to have addressed the main point the original poster raised, namely that sensitivity measured a full 3 dB lower than specified. This 3 dB discrepancy is not unimportant at all, and it means that the speaker will need roughly twice as powerful an amplifier than one would expect from the published specification.
This thread prompted me to read the SS review of the V2. I called my local dealer for a demo and they were kind enough to set up a system which included my front end (SME 10) and Spectral SS 100w/ch electronics. It was the single most impressive dealership audition I've ever had. Hard to say if it was the room, electronics or speakers, but I was more involved with my five LPs than I've ever been. The V2 must have been a big part of it. My only concern after reading this thread and the SoundStage measurements (86dB not 89dB) is whether or not my Pass Labs XA100.5 will have enough power to adaquately drive the V2 in my small room. Short of trying my own (heavy) amps with the speakers, does anyone care to comment? Thanks.
This thread prompted me to read the SS review of the V2. I called my local dealer for a demo and they were kind enough to set up a system which included my front end (SME 10) and Spectral SS 100w/ch electronics. It was the single most impressive dealership audition I've ever had. Hard to say if it was the room, electronics or speakers, but I was more involved with my five LPs than I've ever been. The V2 must have been a big part of it. My only concern after reading this thread and the SoundStage measurements (86dB not 89dB) is whether or not my Pass Labs XA100.5 will have enough power to adaquately drive the V2 in my small room. Short of trying my own (heavy) amps with the speakers, does anyone care to comment? Thanks.
The Soundstage review prompted me to call my local dealer to arrange an audition. They were kind enough to set up an SME 10 (which I use) and Spectral SS 100watt electronics which should be similar to my Pass XA100.5. It was the single best dealership demo I've ever had. Truely impressive. I was more involved with my five LPs than I've ever been. Incredible coherence, detail and pressence. I'm concerned with the 86dB spec., though. Short of trying them with my own (heavy) amps, does anyone care to comment about the V2 power requirements and my Pass XA100.5. I'm worried they may not have the necessary current. The Stereophile measurements of the V3 also stated 87dB rather than the 89dB specified. Thank you.
If you're serious about buying them, the dealer should arrange for a home demo!
Just did a quick comparison between some of the SS sensitivity measurements and manufacture claims. I was not all that surprised to see a discrepancy of 3 and more dbs between most of the measurements and the claims. Here are some example:
Verity Parsifal claim 89db measure 85db
Kef 201/2 claim 86db measure 83db
YG claim 92db measure 89db
Dynaudio C1 claim 88db measure 83.5db
I could not even find any sensitivity rating on any of the Wilson products. It seems like they have learned their lesson.
These discrepancies have been going on for years. Almost all JA measurements reviews starts with this line: “My estimate of the X12 voltage sensitivity was XXdB(B)/2.83V/m, slightly lower than specified.”
What is the big deal suddenly?
Many Stereophile measurements start like you say. Several find that measured sensitivity matches public spec very closely, and a few exceed it, sometimes remarkably so. Therefore it is not a case of everyone doing it. It is a case that many are, and a sizeable portion are not. Even if everyone did it, what difference would it make? It's still wilful misinformation. Or sloppy manufacturing, which is worse. Or both. All athletes try to cheat, and many do. Does this make doping ethical?
spaNNer,
I didn't see Doug Schneider showing the (mock) outrage that you are showing about a sensitivity number in a 4-ohm loudspeaker that is off by 3dB, as it also is, BTW, with the Magico M5 and the Magico Mini II and as it has been, in my past experience, with every 4-ohm loudspeaker I've reviewed. (The trouble is that manufacturers of 4-ohm loudspeakers tend to "cheat" on sensitivity numbers by measuring at 2.83V/2W into 4 ohms which will give you a 3dB higher figure than measuring at the standard 2.83V/1W into 8 ohms--as if you didn't know.) What I did see Schneider saying was (and I repeat): "The V2 is...the best passive loudspeaker I’ve ever reviewed." "Impressive? Maybe. Unique? Not by a long shot," my ass.
BTW (and don't take this the wrong way because I've enjoyed your posts), are you associated with any audio company or any retail or wholesale audio concern, spaNNer? If you are, you need to openly state your industry tie--that is our policy. If you are not affiliated with any audio outfit, you're fine to continue anonymously.
JV
As JA says, it is his "estimated" measurements and they are different then SS anyway . I can’t imagine these companies “cheating” as you imply. I am not a speaker designer but perhaps their sensitivity criterias are different then SP and/or SS? Would someone buy or not a speaker because it sensitivity rating is +/- 3 db? I think not.
No, Jonathan, I am not affiliated with anything even remotely associated with any kind of audio-related business, never have been and never will be. I hope that this black, menacing thing that is somehow perched on your head is now at ease. On the other hand, why do you think that your ass is worthy of mentioning in public? Has it accomplished anything significant of late? And who is Doug Schneider?
Uh, Doug Schneider is the guy who wrote the review in Soundstage that you've been making such a fuss about, remember?
I am actually relieved to hear that you're a civvy. And, yes, my ass was well worth mentioning in that particular context.
Good. I 'm not particularly keen on remembering audio writers' names. In the grand scheme of things, they are rather trivial. There are more important people one ought to recall handily, like the one I'm studying now (Livy). That said, I'm happy for you and especially so for your ass, which I, to my eternal misfortune, will never meet in the flesh. Such are the wages of triviality.
Livy, huh? Are you a classicist?
More of a mediaevalist, but don't worry, I'm not a Tarantino fan.
Many, many years ago, when I was a grad student, I gave some serious thought to becoming a medievalist. In fact, an old friend of mine, who was also a grad student at the same university, did that very thing and is now a well-known medievalist.
I take it the Tarantino quip was to indicate that you won't "go medieval" on me. Let me assure you that it wouldn't bother be in the least. Are you a Chaucerian? Or do you specialize in the Gawain poet or do you go back earlier?
Your scope of the Middle Ages is rather narrow. Try Migne's Patrologia.
Then you are studying the writings of the Early Church fathers? Are you a medievalist or an ecclesiastic or both?
I study a lot of things and I'm as secular as can be.
Migne's Patrologia
A sure way to spice up any conversation…
It was meant as a discouraging snub.
And I was deeply hurt.
Meanwhile...if we've got the sensitivity issue settled to everyone's satisfaction, let me alert those of you who are interested (and can remember my name) that I will be reviewing the Magico M5 in our October issue, No. 196. No measurements (save for an RTA) but a lot of observations about big multi-driver dynamic speakers and this particular big multi-driver dynamic speaker.
JV,
that comes with the job........it helps to balance those enlightened moments that you as a reviewer are previleged to enjoy when you sit in that sweet spot to listen to such incredible products from companies such as magico, etc............i know you wouldn't trade that for anything under the sun........no matter how hurtful and even downright disrespectful some of our comments can be at times.......not to mention that some of us would suffer from withdrawal symptoms if you chose to do anything else under the sun. But then again its a crazy hobby.........you of all people should know. Crazy folks have some crazy and disfunctional ways of showing their love.............but its still love JV
I'll survive, Zead. But thank you for the sweet note and the encouragement.
The sensitivity issue is not settled at all. The Soundstage chart states clearly that it was measured using a 2.83 Volt signal, not a 1 Watt signal.
Spanner, JV is correct regarding eficiency calculations.
Most loudspeakers manufacturers specify the speaker efficiency at 2.83 volts input signal, which is equivalent to 1 W ONLY when driving an 8 ohm speaker.
Power = Vsquared/R (ohms).
On a 4 ohm speaker 2.83*2.83/4 = 2 Watts
On an 8 ohm speaker: 2.83*2.83/8=1 watt
Since power doubles for each additional 3 db and very few speakers are actually 8 ohms, manufacturers got used to quoting efficiency at 2.83 Volts input, it inflates the numbers nicely...
I do not consider this to be a Magico-only sin, it has become mostly a "de facto" industry standard way of publishing effficiency specs.
Also, a typical speaker has an impeadance curve that is all over the chart; as high as 30 Ohms in the bass, as low as 2 ohms in some cases. Who is the arbiter that says the a particular speaker is in fact a 4 ohm or a 6 ohm speaker ? It depends on how you look at the chart: Mean impedance, average impedance, smoothed average impedance, or impedance at 1 Khz????
I believe we need some kind of standardization and rule enforcement, similar to what happened when the highly inflated amplifier IHF power ratings were dropped in favor of RMS power specs.
In the meantime, simply deduct 3 db whenever you see an efficiency spec quoted at 2.83 V into 4 ohms.
I hope this helps clarify
BTW I have no affiliation with Magico.
For being taken at the NRCC, I'm surprised the measurements are of such low resolution and limited range. The NRCC has much, much better equipment than that. Those look more like LSPCad plots. I noticed it said independant, which leads me to believe SS rented the anechoic chamber (NRCC does rent it out) and used their own equipment.
For some impressive measurements; look at the NS-1000M. -65dB (0.06%) THD in the treble, -70dB (0.032%) in the midrange, and -50dB (0.32%) below 100Hz. The worst case scenario was -45dB build up THD below 80Hz. These were made in the 1970's and the mid and tweeter still have faster settling times and lower distortion than electrostatics. The problem was that the woofer carried well into the midrange and the woofer did not settle as fast as the mid. The mid and tweeter also had a narrow and very tall impedance peak with no impedance correction, and exciting the driver's Fs at moderate power could cause the suspension to permanently stretch and no longer meet compliance specification, then the driver would become metallic sounding as they could no longer settle fast enough. The tinsel leads then would become fatigued and noisy, and eventually fail. The later NS-2000's tweeter and midrange exhibited -80dB (0.01%) THD with a faster settling time and the new tweeter had a wider bandwidth.