Kharma Grand Exquisite Loudspeaker
Jonathan Valin -- Tue, 11/18/2008 - 13:55
I just got back from a ten-day overseas jaunt that took me, first, to beautiful, richly historic Istanbul, Turkey, then to Amsterdan in The Netherlands, and finally to Breda in The Netherlands. (Those of you interested in seeing a few of the spectacular sites from these gorgeous cities, feel free to click on any of the following links, which more or less follow the course of my trip:http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p344622584, http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p948865592, http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p669467757,
http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p657138669,
http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p1050372240,
http://jlvalin.zenfolio.com/p940913383.)
I went to Istanbul to hear a rara avis, Kharma's $300k top-of-the-line loudspeaker, the Grand Exquisite. This giant, 1100-pound (per side), D'Appolito point source loudspeaker incorporates everything that Kharma's chief engineer (and chief executive), Charles van Oosterum, knows about making speakers. Charles, lest we forget, was really the first loudspeaker designer to make use of ceramic drivers and diamond tweeters. Though many others have now followed in his footsteps, it is my opinion that he remains the best at wringing the most out of these esoteric drivers. His speakers are seamless transducers, extraordinarily high in resolution and extraordinarily low in box/driver/crossover coloration, and none that I've heard (and I've heard a few Kharmas over the years) is as high and low in either as the Grand Exquisite.
We went first to Istanbul to hear the Grand Exquisite because there are three different pairs of them set up in state-of-the-art systems in Istanbul. The first belongs to Adnan Salihoglu, the warm-hearted man who distributes Kharma (and Audio Note, Japan) in Turkey. You can see a picture of Adnan's setup below:
The other two Grand Exquisite systems in Istanbul (pictured below) belong to two of Adnan's friends and clients:
All three sounded genuinely superb, with perhaps the best stage depth and imaging I've yet heard from a large cone loudspeaker and some of the most lifelike timbre and dynamics I've heard period. The Grand Exquisites give up nothing to their dynamic competition in resolution, frequency extension, soundstaging, dynamics, and naturalness of timbre. They are undoubtedly world-class transducers--the best that Kharma has to offer.
At Kharma's offices in Breda, I got to hear the Grand Exquisites for a fourth time, sounding just as extraordinary as they did in Istanbul:
It is rare (but highly preferable) to be able to audition the same loudspeaker in four different venues. The experience gives you a much surer sense of how the speaker will perform in different rooms. In this case, I can honestly say, that the room was never much of a factor. The Grand Exquisites strutted their extraordinary stuff with equal impressiveness in all four venues, which speaks to the fundamental neutrality of this transducer's drivers and the inertness of its cabinet.
Speaking of Kharma's cabinets, I got to see several of them being made at a high-end furniture factory outside of Breda. Van Oosterum uses unusually dense high-tech materials (formed from compressed paper and laminates to give it just the right stiffness) for the cabinet walls of his Exquisite Series speakers. In the near future I'll post some pictures of Kharma speakers under construction.
For the nonce, rest assured that the Grand Exquisite has joined my little pantheon of truly world-class loudspeakers, alongside the likes of MBL 101 X-Tremes, Symposium Acoustics Panoramas, Magico Mini IIs, Martin Logan CLXes, and Rockport Hyperions. That's how good I think they are.
In spite of their size and weight, it is my hope to review a pair in the not-too-distant future and report on them in depth with analog sources in addition to digital ones and my own preferred electronics. Those of you with the inclination and the money (and these days that is a very small few) would be well advised to audition the Kharma Grand Exquisites before making a final decision on your transducer in a state-of-the-art system. It may not be the only truly great loudspeaker in the world, but it is undoubtedly one of the foremost.
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Sounds like a fascinating and rewarding trip.
What are the nets protecting those gourgeous speakers from, in system 3?
Frank
JV,
I had seen the Kharma Grand Exquisites advertised on their website, and I'm been wondering if my favorite reviewer would get a chance to listen to them.
I know how much you loved the Ceramique 3.2's and the Midi Exquisites and the Mini Exquisites, so I was wondering how good the top-of-the-line Grand Exquisites might strike you.
Let's be clear: I can't even pretend to afford speakers in this class. But I LUV reading about them. Man, I would really lick my chops over a review of the Grand Exquisites, one in which you sort of compared them to, among others, the MBL X's.
I'm glad you were able to make this trip. And if you do get them delivered to your place, you've got to show photos of those muscle-men movers lifting them to the upper floor of your house. The photos of those guys lifting the MBL X's were priceless.
<<What are the nets protecting those gourgeous speakers from, in system 3?>>
Cats!
Jonathan
BTW thanks for the tour, slide show, and great photos
Loved the mosques and the mansion
Frank
Anonymous,
Thank you for the kind words about my writing. If I do get the Grand Exquisites for review, you can be sure that the Elam Bros. will be back to carry them upstairs. (And, yeah, I'll take pix.)
EBIT,
And thank you for the kind words about the travel photos. The mosques were extraordinary and extraordinarily beautiful. What a fabulous city, Istanbul. What an amazing trip!
Jon
Here are three snaps taken in the furniture factory in Breda that makes Kharma's cabinets. The first shows an Exquisite 1 E cabinet with a coat of primer in front of a CNC machine, the second a similar cabinet awaiting a second coat of paint inside a paint booth, the third the cabinet being painted. The enclosures are finished with many coats of high-end paint. The factory itself was amazingly high-end.
Stunning stuff!!
Really curious to know how the Grand compares to the Exquisite Reference and the Exquisite Midi.
That said though, I'm curious about Kharma's demo room pictured above - it shows a pair of $300K speakers needing to be augmented with an Exquisite Subwoofer?!! And the listening seats off-center?
And also in the 2nd picture of the Grand at an individual's home... notice a pair of Kharma subwoofers "a mile away", what's up with that?
Pity all the home systems seem to be using AudioNote amps. Not the most neutral amps around.
By the way, the gold painted Grands look cheezy IMO.
Blue,
I had the same reaction to the subwoofer as you did. But apparently it was there for show only. (It was a showroom, after all.) I can tell you for a certainty that the Grand Exquisites don't need a subwoofer!
I was also dubious about the Kondo electronics, but have to admit that they sounded surprisingly neutral in all three installations in Istanbul and in Breda. I heard the Exquisite Reference 1E at Munich with the latest Tenor electronics and the sound, though quite beautiful, was far more euphonically colored (and far heavier and more amorphous in the bass) than it was in any of the Istanbul Kondo setups or in Breda. Going on memory, I would have to say that the Grand stomps the version of the Exquisite Midi that I reviewed several years ago, in which the diamond tweeter stuck out like a diamond thumb and the bass was way too tight and overcontrolled. (The EM has been improved since.) The Grand is really a different animal than any other Kharma I've listened to--more seamless, far more full-range, higher in resolution and lower in any driver/crossover colorations, more neutral in balance, more natural in timbre, with greater dynamic range and higher transparency to sources. It also disappeared almost completely as a sound source and had, in two of the four installations, the deepest, most precisely defined soundstage I've yet heard from a large dynamic loudspeaker.
I guess I should also note that Charles is the Continuum importer in The Netherlands, and I listened to the big Continuum with the Grands for some two hours and came away convinced that I had never really heard that table/arm before, even in Munich where it sounded far better than it has in Vegas. This is an excellent turntable and tonearm that has been poorly served by its showings at CES (and judging by what I heard in Breda, to a lesser degree by its M.O.C. showing, as well). I listened to six or seven LPs I'm very familiar with, and it was quite impressively faithful to the way I know they sound.
Jon
<<By the way, the gold painted Grands look cheezy IMO.>>
They may look a bit gaudy in these photos, but in life I found them quite strikingly attractive.
Very interesting. Thanks for the response JV. Couple of additional question if you don't mind.
The Kharma 1E - Tenor 350M combination you heard in Munich, do you believe the sonics of the pairing you heard was specific to that place & time or you think it might be endemic to the latest iterations of both?
Have you heard the Lamm ML2.1 paired with any of Kharma's Exqusite range, and if so, how might it be different from what you heard with the Tenor and the AudioNote amps?
<<The Kharma 1E - Tenor 350M combination you heard in Munich, do you believe the sonics of the pairing you heard was specific to that place & time or you think it might be endemic to the latest iterations of both?>>
Probably a combo of room and amplification, although I have the feeling that the Tenor monoblocks (and perhaps the prototype Tenor phonostage) were the primary reasons the sound was so rich and dark and sweet and rather over-ripe. I say this because the Tenor 300Hp amp (the predecessor to the 350M), when last I heard it in my home functioning, was also dark and full and sweetish (a considerable departure from the naturally bright, lively, airy neutrality of the Tenor 75Wp OTLs that I once so adored). OTOH, the Kharma Mini Exquisite that my friend Wayne Garcia uses as his reference is a purely gorgeous sounding speaker that is inherently fuller and sweeter and darker than previous Kharmas, so I guess it's possible that the 1Es are also inherently darker and fuller and less dead-center neutral in balance than other Kharmas, like the revised Midi Exquisite, the Galileo, and the Grand Exquisites I heard on my trip. The only way to find out for sure would be to hear the Kharma 1Es with a different amp whose sound I am intimately familiar with (like an ARC 610T or a Soulution 710) or, contrarily, to hear the Tenor 350M with a speaker whose sound I'm more familiar with (like a Magico Mini II or V3). Happily, the latter combo--the Tenor/Magico--will actually be playing at this year's CES, I am told. So I'll be able to report more conclusively then.
<<Have you heard the Lamm ML2.1 paired with any of Kharma's Exqusite range, and if so, how might it be different from what you heard with the Tenor and the AudioNote amps?>>
Yes, I have. I used to use the ML2s with Kharmas (so, I believe, did Charles before he switched to Kondo and so, I believe, did Vladimir Lamm before he switched to the big Wilsons). The ML2s are one of my all-time-favorite amps. With a mere 17Wpc, they require a high-sensitivity loudspeaker, of course, but with the right speaker (like a big Kharma or Shun Mook Bella Voce or Avantgarde Trio) they were and are marvelous--somewhat more extended at both frequency extremes than the Kondo amps, at least as high in resolution and lower in coloration (including euphonic ones), very dynamic, and just a tad dark (like all Lamm gear). Those folks who bash SE amps for being highly euphonic and inherently bandwidth-limited have obviously never heard Lamm ML2s (or Kondo SEs, for that matter).
As for how Lamms compare to the Tenors and the Kondos. This is a bit apples to oranges to tangerines. (And it also depends on which Tenor and which Kondo amp you're talking about.) Lamm ML2s are dark (psychoacoustically, a bit weighted toward the bass), fast, extended, highly controlled, extremely highly resolving, and highly energetic, with superb soundstaging and tightly focused imaging. The Tenor 75Wp--my favorite Tenor amp and, also, one of my all-time-favorites--was lighter, brighter, more bloomy, and less dark than the Lamm ML2, with an extraordinarily lively and natural midrange and upper midrange (that could sound a bit too bright), somewhat more recessive bass, and bigger, less tightly focused imaging. (The Tenor 300Hp was an amp that I never fully cottoned to.) The Kondo Ongaku amp is like a cross between Lamms and the Tenor 75Wp--brighter, lighter, bloomier, airier than the Lamm ML2, but less bright, a bit more controlled, a bit more detailed, a bit more fully balanced, and a bit less bloomy and "alive" than the Tenor 75Wp. Frankly, I could (and have) lived with any of these three great amps.
Thank you Sir! Much appreciated :)
Dear Jonathan, I would like to correct the "spelling" mistake: The Kondo amps, you auditioned the Kharma Grand's with were Kondo Gakuon II, not Ongaku, which is an integrated amplifier by Kondo. Aydin
Hey, Aydin!!! My best to you and Gurur, man!
I stand corrected about the Kondo amp in your system. (Your system, unlike Adnan's, was also bi-amped with Gakuons, was it not?)
When discussing how Kondo amps compare to the Lamm ML2 and Tenor 75Wp OTL, I was thinking of the sound of the Ongaku, because the Ongaku and the Neiro are the amps that I've had in MY system.
Jon
Hey Jonathan,
What a delight you show a picture of one of my cats! The cat on the picture above does not go to any guest's lap. She felt that you are a loving person! Thank you for the beautiful words about our city, Istanbul. It is more the beauty of your looking! I notice that you are also a very good photographer. We would certainly be pleased to help any audiophile friend around, when visiting our city. Best,
Aydin
I don't know what to say, Aydin, except to thank you and Gurur and Adnan and Aisha (don't know if I'm spelling her name right) for the wonderful hospitality and wonderful music and wonderful food (and, of course, that Lion's Milk). Your beautiful city doesn't need me to extol its unique beauty and history and fascination. They were plain to see, as was the warmth and kindness of all the people I met there. Someday I hope Kathy and I will come back. We truly want to.
Is that an SME Model 30/2 I espy under its plastic cover it the third system (the one with the anti-cat shileding)?
<< Is that an SME Model 30/2 I espy under its plastic cover it the third system>>
Rich,
I don't know. We didn't listen to vinyl in this setup. But it certainly could be, given the very high quality of the rest of the system.
JV
Mr. Valin,
I know this will be posted in the incorrect thread but was wondering where VAC Phi pre/amp would fit into the spectrum that you described regarding Lamm, Tenor, and Kondo equipment.
Thanks in advance.
Yes, it is an SME 30/2. We did not listen to vinyl at that time because it was not yet set up. I acquired it very recently - I must say, upon recommendations and tests, not upon personal auditioning. I am so delighted with my mbl 1621 transport and Kondo KSL-DAC converter combination as (digital) source, which I attained after many trials, that I do not feel in a hurry to set it up; but I am sure it will be another chapter to return to analog.
Aydin
Mr. Valin,
I know this will be posted in the incorrect thread but was wondering where VAC Phi pre/amp would fit into the spectrum that you described regarding Lamm, Tenor, and Kondo equipment.
Thanks in advance.
<<I know this will be posted in the incorrect thread but was wondering where VAC Phi pre/amp would fit into the spectrum that you described regarding Lamm, Tenor, and Kondo equipment.>>
Music Lover,
Having only heard them at shows, I don't have enough experience with the VAC Phi preamp and amps to say. I did review a VAC integrated amp many years ago and found it a mixed bag. Though exceedingly rich, bloomy, airy, and beautiful in the midrange, the older VAC's ill-defined, over-ripe bass and rolled-off treble made it quite midrange-centric. The much more recent VAC Phi gear appears to be a different animal; for instance, this year in the Gershman room at RMAF (where they were driving the Black Swans to near perfection), the VAC Phi Alpha DAC, Phi Signature Mk II preamp, and Phi 200 amps sounded terrific--much more extended and better defined at both frequency extremes (and in the midband), while still quite beautiful overall.
Jon
JV in my hometown and we didn't manage to meet !
Glad you enjoyed this fantastic city, and hope you will visit again.
Charles, lest we forget, was really the first loudspeaker designer to make use of ceramic drivers and diamond tweeters.
I thought the first diamond tweeter was used in Yamaha's NS1000M, back in the early 80s. I still have a pair of those lying about somewhere ... am I wrong?
<<JV in my hometown and we didn't manage to meet !
Glad you enjoyed this fantastic city, and hope you will visit again.>>
Zeb,
Bummer! I take it your hometown is Amsterdam or Breda?
Next time that I visit, if (as I hope) there is a next time, I will let you know I'm coming to The Netherlands and we can get together.
Jon
Beautiful Istanbul !
Oh well, I'll catch you at CES - I think there was a drink going ? :)
Sorry, above post was mine - obviously not logged in the site.
Zeb,
My memory may be faulty here, but I thought the Yamaha NS1000M was the first to use beryllium dome drivers (midrange and tweeter). I don't remember them using a diamond tweeter. Indeed, I don't think diamond tweeters were around back then.
Jon
Hmmm.. I stand corrected; senility creeping in. It was beryllium indeed.
I should lug them upstairs and hoo them up to the 610Ts to see what they would sound like these days ...
i notice you listed the rockport hyperion as one of your world class speakers. i was wondering if you have had an opportunity to hear the newer offerings from rockport, the altair and the arrakis, and if so your thoughts on how they compare? thanks korgz
<<i was wondering if you have had an opportunity to hear the newer offerings from rockport, the altair and the arrakis>>
Korgz,
Not yet, although, God knows, Andy Payor has repeatedly tried to get me out to Maine to listen to the Arrakis. (They're just too big and heavy to ship to shows or to my house.) The timing of the trip hasn't worked out--yet. I'm a fan of Andy's speakers; listening to the Rockport Hyperion driven by two pairs of Tenor 75Wp OTLs was one of the true highlights of my audio-reviewer life.
As an aside, I have the feeling that the Magico M5, which will be introduced at this coming CES, will be another pantheon speaker, given that it is essentially a gigantic, full-range Mini II. I'm genuinely looking forward to hearing it.
JV
i heard the V3 M6 and rockport altair in boston. i liked the M6 and altair their built quality and sound were fantastic. i think worth your trip to hear the rockport. i see we are both walker black diamond/air tight pc1 owners. i use walker's phono stage as well, i love the direct conection. hope you get a chance to see the the altair soon i am considering a purchase. thanks koegz (type error first time)
Koegz,
You're certainly shopping for speakers in the upper reaches of the high end! Whichever one you choose from the bunch you mentioned is going to be a winner.
BTW, I'm currently using the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme in the Walker, a combo which I HIGHLY recommend to you. (There will be a review of the PC-1 Supreme in Issue 190.) As good as the PC-1 was and is, the PC-1 Supreme is considerably better in all respects.
JV
using my pc-1 only a year now, find it hard to justifie, maybe on the next cart upgrade. i believe i will go with the altair's. they go well with my electronic's, krell evo 600 mono's and krell 202 pre. the m6's while fantastic, were more then i wanted to spend. also i did not like the warranty and how it worked and besides there are so few great products made in america how do you pass it up when you find one. come to think of it, i believe with this purchase, it will al have been made in the USA, not a comon act for me. hope to see a review of the rockport's from you soon. koegz
for what it's worth
Best luck with the Altairs! Sounds like you have an excellent system.
Jon
I gotta say I don't see any aspect of these that would add more cost than say Mbl extreme. Not least by 140k. It seems rather indulgent of the maker. I assume the world of hifi have discovered what many other luxury industries have, if its very good, already has a market, and is of limited/and or special production; it can be priced within a range which is affordable to this client base. And these days your average super rich buyer considers a million about acceptable for any said item- car, boat, jewerly. Its the sweetspot number which not so much to affect their bank account, and just enough to declare they have the best. So its with this in mind that I say to this indugent hifi community for your top line stuff, your pricing is all wrong. The sweet spot for your customer base is really about 1 million for a pair of speakers. So go forth and charge you will most probably get it. I just wish you would give the profits to charity.
<< I gotta say I don't see any aspect of these that would add more cost than say Mbl extreme. Not least by 140k. It seems rather indulgent of the maker.>>
It isn't the way the Grand Exquisites look--it's the way they sound that makes them worthy of serious audition. Moreover, those diamond tweeters that Charles uses are incredibly expensive (and the Grand Exquisite uses six of them! three per speaker-side); so are the other drivers, the wiring (which is gold and gold-silver), the crossover parts, the enclosure materials and build. None of this is to say, that the MBL 101 X-Treme isn't a stunning work of industrial art or an incredibly lifelike transducer--in many ways THE most lifelike I've yet heard. But it is very large, almost twice the weight of the Grand Exquisite, requires two pairs of nearly-$100k-per-pair 9011s to function optimally, and (with four separate towers) take up considerably more real estate than the GEs. While the GE is scarcely a lightweight at around 1000 pounds per side, it is a single box speaker with a single-box footprint and a sensitivity of 93dB, making it more room-friendly and easier to drive. Add to this that omnis (like stats, ribbons, and even cones) aren't to everyone's taste.
<<these days your average super rich buyer considers a million about acceptable for any said item- car, boat, jewerly. Its the sweetspot number which not so much to affect their bank account, and just enough to declare they have the best.>>
A complete MBL 101 X-Treme system and a Kharma Grand Exquisite system don't cost a million; suitable systems based around either speaker would cost somewhere around half-a-million bucks. Of course, that is still a LOT of money, even for folks with lots of money. Which is why, even at this level of hi-fi, a purchaser would be well served to audition equipment at length with the kind of music he loves before pulling out the Protactinium MasterCard.
It goes without saying that I will never be able to afford either system, and even if I could I wouldn't buy them. For one thing, they're too big for my house. (Of course, if I were a multi-millionaire I guess I wouldn't be living in my house.) For another, they would be overkill for the music I listen to typically, which is smaller scale. But...they're both great. There's no disputing that. There's also no disputing that I've heard other great speakers that don't cost anywhere near this kind of dough (like the Magico Mini IIs and the MartinLogan CLXes). Of course, neither the Mini IIs nor the CLXes have the extended frequency response (particularly in the mid-to-low bass, which is the single most expensive item in the speaker shopping cart) or the nearly unlimited dynamic range and scale (the second-most expensive item) of these behemoth speaker systems; nonetheless, they will play most of the music I love almost as realistically for a fraction of the price (although, to be fair, neither is cheap).
John,
I repect your review and all the wonderful experiences you relate here. However do you really know the costs of the Karma hardware? Lets see two diamonds in there small model cost 30-40k? I mean if you do and indeed the diamonds and what-ever else really do cost x- amount leading to the manufacter needing to charge300k to make a decent profit, then indeed I do understand. But if we're all just guessing, then I'm going to stay with my original idea, that these speakers are probably priced way higher than the equipment and design warrant. And I will also remain with my prediction that soon enough such manufacturs will awaken to the very possibility of being able to charge many more hundreds of thousands of dollars based more on the buyers mindset and bank account than the speakers/equipment itself. JL
<<But if we're all just guessing, then I'm going to stay with my original idea, that these speakers are probably priced way higher than the equipment and design warrant.>>
JL,
I'm not defending Kharma's pricing. What Kharma charges is up to Kharma (and what the market it is aiming for will bear). What I can tell you is that a Thiel 30mm diamond tweeter costs almost $5000 as a raw part. The Grand Exquites use four of them, plus two 20mm diamond tweeters at roughly $2900 apiece. That's $25k+ for tweeters alone! Compare this, if you will, to the raw-parts cost of the tweeters in other ultra-high-end loudspeakers. A Thiel 6.5" ceramic midrange driver costs almost $600 as a raw part (not counting the laser-trimming that Kharma requires). The Grand Exquisites uses four of them (two per speaker side). That's $2400 for midrange drivers. Once again, compare this to the parts cost of the midranges in other ultra-high-end speakers. Eton's 12" Hexacone woofer costs $500 as a raw part. The Grand Exquisites use four of them (two per speaker side). That's $2000 for woofers; over $30k in raw parts cost for drivers alone. I can only guess at the additional cost of the double runs of gold-silver wiring that Charles uses (think top-of-the-line Siltech pricing), the top-of-the-line silver/gold crossover parts (the Mundorf parts in Magico speakers are hundreds of dollars apiece), the fine-furniture-grade manufacture and assembly. Indeed, in all fairness, I'd have to say that the Kharma Grand Exquisite is one of the few loudspeakers where you can actually see how much money has gone into it just by looking at it.
That said, I'd be the first to admit that super-expensive parts and super-expensive construction and a Ferrari paint job don't necessarily add up to a transcendent audio experience. Those parts have to work as a whole, no matter what they cost. Throwing money at a product doesn't mean you know how to successfully engineer a product. In this case, however, I can attest that Charles knows his stuff.
I am not saying, BTW, that the Kharma Grand Exquisite is the only speaker I would consider if I had a large room and oodles of money to spend. What I am saying is that it would be among a small handful. I am also saying that whether you think it is priced "reasonably" or not, it demonstrably uses unusually expensive parts.
JV
Very good points JV.
In any case, its well undertood that Vendors who've reached near the pinnacle of performance (on any product) generally have value based pricing rather than cost-driven pricing. Forget Audio, its pretty much the same for virtually any product segment. Theres little point in arguing about cost-based pricing when talking about such esoteric products.
To paraphrase the old saying: If you need to argue about the price...
I think JL is perfectly right in saying that there are some factors determining the price other than the production cost, and the know-how combined with trustworthy sonic preferences (which is probably the most important factor in this case). These other factors include, as JL states, the buyers' "mindset" and their willingness to pay this price. However, there is a limitation to this factor as well: If there were superior speakers with a similar (or lower) price, I would not purchase the Grand Exquisites. It does depend on what else is available on the market. Another limitation is again the buyer's "bank account" (even for this client group). I had to sell a house to be able to bring together my system. (I mentioned some of my criteria in chosing the equipment earlier on this page.) If the price of GE were one million, I would not buy them as JL claims. In that case, I would also have to sell the house I am living in, which I would not do!
Companies do have different marketing strategies for different groups. I know that Charles of Kharma is having appearances also in millionaire fairs, but with some "weird" products, not with his high-end audio products.
I hope my contribution to this discussion as a real GE customer (I have the third system with the cat shield on this page) is welcome on this forum.
As an aside, perhaps you could answer my question regarding your system. Is the turntable in the photo an SME Model 30/2? Just curious (not to mention, more than a little bit envious!)... :-)
"If the price of GE were one million, I would not buy them as JL claims. In that case, I would also have to sell the house I am living in, which I would not do!"
I wasn't alking about people who have to sell their houses- which I certainly can respect, to buy such equipment. I'm talking about the new world-wide "A" list of super rich. A relatively large gruoup- which posseses literally most of the worlds weath, of exceptionally wealty people who can afford just about anything. Manufacturers of all forms are begining to tap into this group and cater literally to their every whim. Indeed many of these people are the benefactors of the recent worldwide collapse in the money markets- where did all those tens of trillions go- well mostly to these people. I hope no one thought that the"trillions that were lost" were actually "lost"- nothing could be further from the truth. Anyway such people are willing to pay anything for the ultimate.
"I know that Charles of Kharma is having appearances also in millionaire fairs, but with some "weird" products, not with his high-end audio products."
What are "millionaire fairs" and what are "weird" prouducts? I have not seen such fairs here in nyc , yet.
Thanks, JL
<<What are "millionaire fairs" and what are "weird" prouducts?>>
I heard a little about this in Breda. Charles is very much of the mindset that you are, JL. He wants to cater to the ultra-rich, but he wants to give them, if not "fair value," at least a product that will look better and outperform anything else that is similar. One of the items that he's been showing at millionaire fairs in Europe and Russia and Asia is a kind of a latter-day JBL Paragon--a one-piece stereo system that uses deluxe parts (as, to be fair, Charles products always do). He also has in mind starting up a series of Kharma boutiques--like B&O boutiques for the ultra-rich--in which every product would be made by Kharma. I saw and heard an ultra-expensive and impressive home-theater system in Breda, complete with Kharma projector and electronics, that would be one of the items he'd market in these boutiques.
Let me repeat some things I said earlier. First, I've listened to most of the contenders for "best" loudspeaker (and reviewed a fair number), and the Grand Exquisite belongs in the select group that I consider worthy. It is not the only great speaker, but it is one of them. Second, regardless of the GE's pricing, which I am not defending, it is fair to point out, as I have, that van Oosterum uses parts that are much, much more expensive than most of his competition. As I also said, that doesn't guarantee anything when it comes to sound quality, but it is indisputably a factor in the way his speakers are priced (and in their sex appeal).
And let me be clear about something else: If I thought the Grand Exquisites were merely status symbols for the ultra-rich and ultra-loony, I wouldn't recommend them. For me and for all reviewers at TAS, the bottom line is always fidelity to the sound of the real thing. After listening to them for many hours in a variety of first-rate systems with my own music, I can say with confidence that the Grand Exquisites are exceptionally high in fidelity and low in coloration. Whether they are $300k high and low is something that a listener would have to decide for himself using the kind of music that he listens to most frequently, as Aydin has.
Charles has a "take" on the reproduction of music (and the voicing of transducers) that is reflected in every one of his speakers, which are uniformly high in resolution and low in distortion. They aren't warm and they aren't cold; they aren't opulent and they aren't overly lean (although they tend to be leaner than some). What they are is precise and controlled. This is not always viewed as a virtue by audiophiles. But that's what a market is for, even at this level of high fidelity, even at this moment in economic life. There are, as I've noted, other, less expensive, fully competitive options. Anyone shopping at this level of hi-fi would be well advised not to fall in love with diamond tweeters simply because they cost a lot, IF the sound of those diamond tweeters and ceramic midranges and Hexacone woofers (and like all drivers, cone or membrane, they have a sound of their own, individually and in combination) isn't completely and unmistakably to their liking. At the same time, I think anyone shopping at this level of hi-fi would be foolish not to audition the GEs. They represent a take on high fidelity that is distinctive and persuasively lifelike.
JL,
I totally agree about your remarks about a milieu among some super rich and the latest "crisis". Thank you for bringing up this topic, although it is a bit off the subject of this forum. Let's elaborate on this on other forums and websites, if you have any suggestions. We could also talk about these when I visit nyc next month.
What could be said on this forum, however, is that I understand the efford to cater to any group to keep one's company alive, but I would strongly encourage Charles not to neglect further developing also on the more affordable level.
My first Kharma speaker was around $15k (a Ceramique 2.3, which does not exist any more), which had replaced a twice as expensive speaker in my system. Most people did not understand my decision, even after listening to it. I had made a choice with some deliberate sonic priority, namely to reproduce lifelike the richness and multitude of different tone colors of different instruments. Everybody makes choices with different priorities and learns with time and experience to do fewer compromises on a specific price level.
This latest post was mine. Aydin
Could somebody tell me how to sign up with a name to this forum?
"Let's elaborate on this on other forums and websites, if you have any suggestions. We could also talk about these when I visit nyc next month.
What could be said on this forum, however, is that I understand the efford to cater to any group to keep one's company alive, but I would strongly encourage Charles not to neglect further developing also on the more affordable level."
Yes, I have been thinking and studying about such things for awhile now. And indeed I further see the irony you present, about Charles...A master engineer/craftsman who used to- well probably still does but much less, be able to sell his products to a diverse cross-section of the world-wide middle/upper-middle class, but now appartently like many other businesses- as I mentioned in my prior post, must conform no longer to his neighbors and friends but to people he does not know, and likely would not ever want to know. (Further irony that people who are passionate about creating the best in all feilds-science/art etc, and those who wish to be apart of such greatness, have less and less ability to achieve this.) People who have not earned their money based on passion and depth of knowledge, but instead upon base animial instinct. Of course there are some who got rich via the former, but they are few.
Thinking about it more, I actually believe that someone like Charles could make such products of his dreams with more ease if the prices of raw materials (as John says indeed are so high) were not so artifically high due to rarity, and as well if more people on this planet were not living in poverty, but instead as happy knowledgable active participants in our world's growth; as such more people could work with him and more could afford his products, which could allow him to streamline some of the design process- still handmade yes.
Indeed there are forums I have been on, some like the Omidyar network- run by the ex-owner of e-bay, that talk about such issues. But again with the paradox of the ultra rich (Omidyar) asking the middle class how to "save the world" and then going ahead and doing the same old things, clearing their conscious by being "in a community".
I admire your want to be an advocate, it is an exceptionally hard challange. And sure it would be nice to discus these. JL
<< A master engineer/craftsman who used to- well probably still does but much less, be able to sell his products to a diverse cross-section of the world-wide middle/upper-middle class, but now appartently like many other businesses- as I mentioned in my prior post, must conform no longer to his neighbors and friends but to people he does not know, and likely would not ever want to know.>>
This is an overstatement. And I'm afraid I may have brought it on by blithely extolling the Grand Exquisites and talking out of school about millionaire's fairs. The $300k GEs are merely one of the speakers--and one of the rarest (they have never been shown in the U.S., thus my trip to Istanbul and Breda)--that Charles makes. They are also, far and away, the most expensive. Kharma makes and markets six other speakers in the high-priced Exquisite line and nine other speakers in the less-expensive Ceramique line for hi-fi and surround setups. (It also makes and markets a Matrix line of loudspeakers, primarily for home theater, as well as electronics and cabling.) A shortage of products at various price points has never been a problem with Kharma.
None of Charles's speakers is inexpensive, but all are considerably more affordable than the GEs, which, frankly, are the highest priced speakers I've auditioned. My earliest experience with Kharma was the under-$20k CRM 3.2s that to this day remain one of the best two-ways I've heard (I used them as references for a couple of years), Indeed, it took the Magico Mini and Mini II and Kharma's own Mini Exquisite to outperform them (for considerably more dough). What I am saying is that van Oosterum is fully capable of making superb speakers at less-than-millionaire price points for "middle/upper-middle class" buyers worldwide, and does so. Take a look at the Kharma International Web site if you doubt this (www.kharma.com/general_info/general_info.php). The notion that he now caters exclusively to the diamond dogs of ruthless capitalism is simply untrue.
At the same time it would be dishonest to pretend that Kharma doesn't also cater to the very rich. It always has and, yes, by choice and force of circumstance, it will continue to do so more aggressively. But then one could say the same thing about every other high-end speaker company that markets very expensive transducers (and that would be most of them). Also, I'd have to say that the people I met in Istanbul who own Grand Exquisites, like Adnan and Aydin, or my friend Paul, here in Cincinnati, who owns the Kharma Mini Exquisites or my friend Wayne Garcia who uses the Mini Exquisites as his references are anything but the shallow, status-seeking multi-millionaires you suppose Kharma customers/admirers to be. They are all men of high intelligence and large heart, and they are all genuine music lovers and serious listeners. I hope it is still possible, even in this dreadful and unjust economy, to admire a thing for its excellence, even if it is a thing that only folks much wealthier than you can afford. More essentially, I hope it is still possible for smart, decent, and, yes, well-off people to buy such a thing for its excellence, without being tarred as one of the brainless nouveau riche or made to feel guilt for owning something that folks like me can only dream about. If it isn't, then companies like Magico or Kharma or MBL or Rockport or Focal or MartinLogan or Symposium Acoustics or you-name-it might as well shutter their doors.
And let me also add, as I did in an earlier post, that one does not have to spend $200k or $300k to get superb sound. Two of the speakers in my personal pantheon of great loudspeakers are priced at $30k and $23k. No, they aren't as full-range or as dynamic as the more expensive numbers, but where they play they are at least as good (if not better).
Jon,
You must have missed this part:
"A master engineer/craftsman who used to- well probably still does but much less, be able to sell his products to a diverse cross-section of the world-wide middle/upper-middle class,"
Please understand Jon that the world's economy is in drastic change. Most middle class people are in no position to afford any of these products at all- at most of the prices you discuss. ALmost none at all will be spending 50-100k on a system. Note out friend had to sell his entire house, thats quite a sacrafice.
And it is my prediction that it will only get worse.And indeed Charles will have to cater to richer and richer clients.
A good example of how difficult its become is BMW who says this is the most difficut time in their history:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.aspx?AR=236253
Indeed the high end is becoming to high for many. Will the middle class simply bounce back. It seems most new jobs
will not be coming from big industries but rather from Government programs as Obama will be rolling out soon- ala the new deal.
These will be low paying.
Jon,
"I'm afraid I may have brought it on"
Please don't take such credit for your writing controling what others think. thanks, JL
No company should pay $5000 for a tweeter. Many other co. are using diamond tweeters (like B&W) and don't pay nearly that much. Synthetic diamonds, not real ones, will do the trick..........