How much "depth" will a pair of subs add?
-- Thu, 05/21/2009 - 19:25
I have a studio/theater room roughly 20' x 30'. I have a pair of Klipschorns up front, a pair of Corwall/LaScala's as a center channel (a Crites combo) and a pair of Cornwalls as the rear surrounds, small surrounds with 7" woofers don't count. (Yes I'm almost as old as most of the dudes at TAS, reliving my dreams from 35 years ago, finally)
Knowing the Klipsch's all stop near 30 or 35 HZ, but have a total of 6 each 15" drivers in this live space, will I get much bottom feel from a pair of subs?
The room is very live with all woods and non-perpendicular designs, let me know what you think.
You didn't mention whether your AV/pre or receiver supports a separate LFE channel.
I would try one sub for LFE. I might even try putting it fairly close the prime listening position - the goal being to merely give a bit of "oom" to your home theater "booms".
Have you ever measured your in-room response to see how low the Klipschs really go in your room? You may be surprised...
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
I have the NAD 175 with Audyssey setup and Marantz 120w x 8 channels. I have outputs for 2 subs, that's why I was wondering...
No, I would love to know how to measure the room, what can I do to find out what the Audyssey is doing?
I did hook-up a JBL 18" PA sub and put it on a 300w amp, I couldn't hear much unless I really cranked it, so I'm wondering about a "reproduction sub" instead of a PA type system. What is the best reasonable cost way to measure the room? THANKS!
The easiest and simplest way to measure a room is with a Radio Shack SPL meter and a CD with test tones.
There are some software packages for portable PCs (some with microphones) that will give you a more precise measure, but they are also quite a bit more money.
I don't know the specs on the sub you tried, but it may not have been efficient enough to mate well with your Klipschs.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Steven - I'm glad to catch you, thanks for being there.
I have many nice mics (like a Bluebird) as I also play some acoustic and have been playing with a Mackie Onyx mixer with output to the NAD for grins, kind of the ultimate multi-purpose room! So I have the PC, mics and recording stuff there, wondering what software "names" or "types" I should look for. There are lot's of freeware options for some stuff, and I have Traction that came with the Onyx board. I do have the Radio Shack meter at the office and the Stereophile CD's with various test tones.
I would really love to graph out the response. Thanks, BG
THe RS meter will be fine for above 100 Hz. Below that it isn't terribly accurate.
It sounds like you have all the hardware you need to do an accurate frequency response test of your system with a portable PC.
I'd start with a pair of the freeware software options, compare the results with what you get from the RS meter (above that 100 Hz zone) and whichever one seems more accurate and more ergonomically feasible use for low frequency measurements.
I suspect that you'll find that even a moderately-priced sub (or pair of subs) will do a good job once you dial in the crossover and physical placement in your room. Don't be afraid to go with your ears if you find a set-up that integrates well even if your measurement programs indicate it is less than ideal.
I'm a big fan of stereo subwoofers. I don't know if your NAD gives you that option, but if it does I'd try using it.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
The best way to answer your question for your self is to measure the in room response of your speakers, and then compare that result against known test results of various sub woofers, generally ones that are realistic purcase options for you. You can download free software for taking this measurement, and there is a calibration file available for use with this program that account for the inaccuracies of the Radio Shack SPL meter at low frequencies. For me I would start here, but to be honest, if you want a good sub that cleanly plumbs the depths better than speakers as capable as those, then you'll have to get the pennies out. With respect to taking measurements in the sub bass region, you need to measure below 100hz or its a pointless exercise. Sub bass as delivered by sub woofers is at its maximum is within the 0-200 hz zone. For home cinema its 0-80 hz. If your application is music only you may want to look at subs which include a high level connection. Good subs will give you useable spl right down to 10 hz (mine does) and your speakers wont be as clean as a sub like this in the 0 - 80 hz range.
Now for the point on a pair of subs. First thing, properly integrating 2 subs isnt that straight forward and can be a bit fiddly to get right if you are using them non co-located. If you use them together you gain nothing more than some extra spl (upto +6db), and to get the best in room response you should really use them seperated in your room in positions that give a good response, and are complimentary to each other. You need to use 2 identical subs as well, if you dont the poorer of the 2 will be your performance limit. This is because its weaknesses compared to your better sub will be what you hear. What ever set of subs you choose, using 2 will not give any more depth than a single sub, after all a subs physical limit is impossible to excel beyond regardless of how many you add. You therefore need to use 2 subs of the type that are capable of adding useable extra performance over what your speakers can deliver.
There is one thing no one seems to have picked up on though, if your application is music only, there is nothing much going on in the vast majority of music below 40 hz, and my advice would be that adding 2 subs capable of being worthy of your current setup is not at all worth it, they just wont get used that much. If your using them for movies as well, then adding the subs will change your system more than you think they could.
Oh I forgot to add, you can get the needed software from a few places, but IMO the best one is available is one called Room Equalisation Wizard (REW). Its available here:
www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html
There are guides on the site on how to use it. Some people have a little difficulty getting it up and running but I can help with that if needed. The main requirement for using the program is that you need a line in on you PC/laptop as mic in doesnt work properly for reasons I wont go into right now.
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