Help with speakers
rancew -- Mon, 10/06/2008 - 14:18
I'd greatly appreciate some help/feedback on my speaker situation. Here's the deal:
I have an all Bryston system (BCD-1 CDP/BDA-1 DAC/BP26 pre/4BSST amp) fed by a Mac-based server. My room is approximately 22x19x10 and well treated (ACS's "Iso-Room" wall/ceiling system, several Tube Traps in the front corners and Sound Planks on the walls). Probably a bit to the well-dampened side. I play mostly rock and pop, with some jazz and much less classical. I really want a system that can provide some slam with rock...tonal balance and dynamics are my biggest priorities.
The Bryston gear is great, but I'm not really satisfied with the performance of the speakers. I currently have both Focal 1027Be's and B&W 803D's - I've essentially been 'auditioning' both brands with the mindset that I would possibly move up in whichever one I felt was 'it'. (i.e. Focal 1037Be or Utopia Alto, B&W 802/800D). Both sets have had plenty of burn-in time (6-9 months). Unfortunately, both have their shortcomings. I've tried a few options of cabling, and the results - while different in some ways - didn't change the overall sonic signature of each speaker.
Here's what I hear and the pro's/con's of each speaker:
-Focal 1027Be:
pro-remarkably coherent and transparrent, very open and 'ripe' (as opposed to tight and dry). Initially a bit 'tweeter-centric', but after considerable burn-in, much more balanced with incredible bass for their size. Unfortunately, bass is a still a bit shy for my rather large room.
con-a bit 'airy' sounding. It's like the attack/decay combination leans towards less attack and more decay/bloom. Like being hit with a beachball or maybe a volleyball instead of a bowling ball. Again, needs a bit more bass, which - if not for the character of the bass - could be solved by either the matching sub (a whole other can-o-worms, I realize-see question #4 below) or moving up to the 1037Be's
-B&W 803D:
pro-very punchy bass, articulate and forceful midrange (the kevlar at work, I'm sure) with smooth highs - never any sibilance.
con-too tight and dry, midrange sounds narrow and veiled. Soundstage is a bit restricted. Overall, the sound is dark and closed-in, at least with current amplification.
Questions:
1. Would more amplification (e.g. Bryston 7B mono's) make a dramatic difference for either speaker? I'm thinking more of the B&W's, to open and loosen them up?
2. How does Focal's Utopia line compare with the Electra Be line?
3. Is the 'airy' or 'chuffy' quality I hear with the Focal's due to the fact that they are a ported design? (Though B&W's don't have as much of this quality.) If so, do I steer away from a ported design or does that relaly limit options, as I believe ported designs greatly outnumber non-ported.
4. What about using the Bryston 10B-sub and trying to integrate one or two subs into a system? I've actually spoken with the folks at JL Audio (Carl is great!) about using two Fathom f113's and - as you would predict - they feel their subs produce the best sub-100Hz bass on the planet! These subs have a lot of customization options, like room correction for the largest bass node and adjustable attenuation of the low bass.
5. I prefer an open, ripe sound but with alot of weight/authority and a bit of a 'bite'. I don't have to have a system that can 'plum the depths' of the sub-25Hz region, but bass needs to be plenty. What other speakers/systems should i consider in the $8000-20,000 price range?
Sorry for all the detail, but I'm trying to save a lot of back-and-forth on questions about my current situation and tastes.
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What a shame there were no replies to this .... I'm in very similar boat and would love to read some suggestions.
It's a bit difficult to reply as, to be honest, speaker choice is very personal . In the price range mentionned, I would have bought Maggies MG20.1 with no hesitation, but I don't think this is what the writer is looking for. A bit over the top of his budget would be the great Magico V3, which seems to be a perfect fit. I am sure there are quite a few valid contenders in that price range, and if I was in that case, I would have read the magazines, made a shortlist based on reviews and what I know about reviewers' biases, then went to dealers to audition. In the end, I would demand a home demo before buying.
As far as subs as concerned, I've never found one that matched well the kind of speaker I like, so the only one I have is in the cinema room for the explosions.
My guess is that your current amps should be enough to drive the speakers you mention properly. As far as I know, neither speaker presents a particularly nasty load. Having said that, I am of the school that for non-horn speakers more power is good, as long as the quality is maintained, but I don't think that going to a higher powered Bryston would solve your issues.
I agree that more power won't solve the problem. How about considering the Revel Studio2 in the new Ultima2 line? I reviewed the Salon2 ($22k) and found it to be superb. The Studio2 doesn't go quite as low in the bass, but it has all the other wonderful attributes of the Salon2. There's also the new Magico V2 for about the same price.
Have you considerede the Usher Be 10 or Be 20's?
THe new Utopia series uses a different generation be tweeter that goes much lower. These are very different than the previous speakers and the be series you are discussing. The issue however is they are also in a different price range than the be's as well. The two way stand mounted Diablo's are 14k with stands and the next speaker in the line the Scala is 30k. This is higher in price than you mentioned.
Reference 3A Grand Veena. You probably have way more power than you need.
My experience, B&W are great if you live in a mansion size house. To absorb bass in a working mans' home and project lower midrange and midrange - Go Focal and forget it! What you're ditering about is remedied by room treatment.
Let me suggest the Usher Be-20 (see my TAS review) or the slightly smaller Be-10.
You wrote that you seek a speaker that offers "an open, ripe sound but with alot of weight/authority and a bit of a 'bite'."
That's a fairly close approximation of what the Usher's would give you, though I would hesitate to say they have "bite." Instead, they offer a great deal of definition, clarity and articulation--but without the searingly bright, edgy artifacts so many other comparably revealing speakers seem to impose. If you are worried about having adequate bass output, the dual Eton woofers provided in the Be-20 should put your concerns to rest (if anything, the Be-20s might have too much bass authority for some rooms, though yours sounds large enough to take advantage of the Be-20's strengths).
The Be-10/Be-20 design solves one problem that, in my view, plagues many speakers that use Beryllium tweeters only; namely, the problem of an audible discontinuity--in terms of textural detailing and transient speed--between the Be driver and the rest of the drivers in the system. Happily, the Be-10/Be-20 design provides both a Beryllium midrange driver and a Beryllium tweeter--drivers that in my view give these speakers much better top-to-bottom coherency than most.
Note: For many listeners and in many rooms, I suspect the Be-10 would be a better option than the Be-20. For your tastes (as best I understand them from your outline above), though, my intuition is that the Be-20 could be just what you're looking for. In any event, it's certainly worth an audition.
Chris Martens
Editor, Playback
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
Thanks to Ian Currie for reviving this thread, and thanks to all who've contributed and offered suggestions.
Here's an update to my situation:
I've been experimenting with electronics and have realized that the B&W's just don't mate all that well with the Bryston amp, as each tends towards the dry/tight side, and the combination only magnifies this quality. The overall sound of the combination is somewhat hard and sterile. Pairing the B&W's with a warmer amp makes a huge difference in the overal quality of the sound, and I now have a new appreciation for B&W speakers. Specifically, I have a pair of Ampzilla 2000 monoblocks which I'm using together with the matching Ambrosia preapmp (both made by James Bongiorno's (of Sumo/SAE/GAS fame) latest company, Spread Spectrum Technonogies. Very impressive electronics!
After taking some room measurements, I now realize my perception of lack of bass is due to there being some serious room problems: My room has a significant null in the 40-50 Hz region, as well as peaks in the 25 Hz and 60 Hz regions. I've tried a multitude of speaker placements, but the best I can get still yields at least a 15 dB variance.
I've been trying a couple of JL Audio f113 subs. Even applying the ARO room correction, which only attenuated the largest peak (in my case the 25 Hz peak) there's still a large suckout at 40-50 Hz, right where I'm looking for that chest-thump 'kick' from rock/pop music.
Enter the Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer correction unit. This device has really smoothed out the bass, which I can visually see on the video graphics that the unit outputs to a display. However, even with the f113 subs' 'low frequency effects' knob cut all the way (it's supposed to yield an approximate 3 dB cut at 25 Hz) and a couple of the Velodyne's bands cut down all the way (supposed to be -12 dB) in the 15-25 Hz region, I'm still getting alot of energy in the sub-30 Hz region which makes the bass a bitt too muddy and boomy for my taste. This is frustrating, as i've realized all along that I don't want/need much very low, sub 30 Hz bass as I said in my original post, but now it seems I can't fill in my low-bass null without it.
Now I'm wondering if what I really need is just to use a 'full range' speaker, like the 803 or 802 - which start rolling off in the mid-30's - and try some form of full spectrum room equalizer device. If so, what device would be recommended? The one's I've read about include Behringer - which, while inexpensive, some say isn't of high enough quality for a high-end setup, TacT, DEQX.
Any thoughts?
...or does anyone feel that additional room treatment would do the trick???
(See room dimensions and description of existing acoustical treatment in my original post.)
"...or does anyone feel that additional room treatment would do the trick???"
This is the answer. Audiophiles, myself included, always chase for the latest or better technology. But if circumstances allow, adding more room treatments is the best answer. I got rid of my ML Ascents and upgraded to the Vantages for improved bass. Itwas definitely better with the Vantages. Subsequently, I added a bunch of room treatments - I have 16 traps in a 11x13 foot room. Before selling the Ascents, I plugged them in,as the guy who bought them wanted to hear them. When I hooked them up, I was amazed! The bass from the Ascents was damn good! Had I put in the room treatments first, I would have spent my $ elsewhere.
Sure, new speakers and electronics have more lure and sex appeal. However, if you want the MOST improvement for small $ expenditure, treat the room first. Most audiophiles are really clueless about room treatments, and agonize over upgrading their systems when all they really need is to treat their rooms. Ethan from realtraps.com is very helpful and his site is very educational. A radio shack meter is useful also.
Have you tried loudspeaker and listening position placement? You can significantly change the bass response. Sometimes moving the listening chair forward or backward a foot can dramatically alter the bass balance. I would try this before introducing an equalizer into the system. Also try moving the Tube Traps, athough it sounds as though you have them in the ideal locations (in the corners behind the speakers).
Thanks, Mr. Harley for the suggestion.
Yes, I've tried the speakers all over the place, as I said above, and tried moving the listening position up and back. Both subjectively and by the measurements the bass is still lumpy and sub-par.
I know Robert E. Green there at TAS is quite fond of DSP-based room correction, and you've had positive things to say about it as well. I just dug out The TAS TacT Audio RCS 2.2X reviews by both Anthony Cordesman from issue 150 and by REG from issue 158 (with your very positive comments that followed the review) and am now wondering if this is the solution I need.
I'm certainly not wanting to keep throwing large sums of money at the problem, but on the other hand wonder if this is indeed the solution to my problem. My reasoning is that I've given the room a significant amount of acoustical treatments, including a combination of large and super tube traps in the front corners all the way up to the ceiling (which - correct me if I'm wrong - really don't benefit all that much at the sub-80 Hz frequency).
"My reasoning is that I've given the room a significant amount of acoustical treatments, including a combination of large and super tube traps in the front corners all the way up to the ceiling (which - correct me if I'm wrong - really don't benefit all that much at the sub-80 Hz frequency)."
There are many other products that are much more effective than what you are using for trapping the low frequencies you are interested in, such as the real traps mondo traps, and stuff from gik, than what you are using. Ultimately, it's about the number of corners you have covered with the most effective types of products. The Audyssey stufff is great, but makes sense only after you put enough bass traps in your room.
Thanks for the feedback, curiousmind. I guess I need to investigate some of the products you mention. I really thought the ASC (Acoustical Sciences Corporation) products covered the gamut in terms of room treatment, so I'll be checking on these products as well.
I guess my thinking would be that if I can get what additional bass correction I need without a whole lot of extra room treatments that might be preferable.
The TacT room correction products sure have gotten alot of praise by the TAS staff. It's just hard to know what direction to go next. I know it sometimes takes a lot of work to get a room sounding just right, but I'd sure like to get to that point...
With bass trapping, it's all about coverage. Basically you want to cover as many corners of the room as you can with the most effective products, such as the Mondo traps. By corners I mean any wall/ floor, wall/ ceiling, wall/ wall intersection you are able to cover in your room. As Martin Logan owners, we have extra issues as our speakers are usually hybrids (bad panel/ bass integration reputation) and dipoles. The Martin Logan owners (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/index.php) site has a room acoustics section that you may find valuable, in addition to Ethan's realtraps site I mention above. Some guys have done an amazing job with their rooms, and a few use the Audyssey. I have heard some of these rooms and they sound amazing. A few weeks ago I was at a home based dealer's place. He was raving about a $30K + speaker, with another $30K in electronics. I did not have the heart to tell him that a $2K Martin Logan with average electronics would smoke his system in a well treated room. It's like an 85 year old guy driving a shiny, red corvette at 24 mph.
Enjoy the journey!
In that case, you might consider the stand-alone version of Audyssey (the "Sound Equalizer" ) reviewed by Robert E. Greene in Issue 178.
Thanks. I'll check this out.
Well, I did a little research and calling around about the stand alone Audyssey unit - the "Sound Equalizer". This device is a peculiar animal. It seems that only an 'authorized dealer' is able to acquire the setup kit (microphone, software, etc.) needed to program the unit. So one can purchase this unit, but has to have the dealer come out and (for an additional fee, of course) program/calibrate, etc. Then one is left with a room correction device that cannot be tweaked in any manner other than to have the dealer come back out and do this.
The fact that one can get the Audyssey room correction in some 'mid-fi' receivers and integrateds (e.g. Onkyo/Integra, Dennon, NAD) and have the ability to program/calibrate (although I believe a bit more rudimentary program) but not have the capability to do this in the 'high-end' stand-alone unit is quite perplexing, as the Sound Equalizer unit would certainly be the unit targeted to the more sophisticated and experienced audiophile...
So...what I have opted for is a TacT RCS 2.2X pre-amp. I've not had this unit for very long and am still getting to know the programming software and all of its options, but so far the results are quite impressive, both with and without subs. (I was about ready to give up on the idea of integrating subs into my system, but the TacT has taken things much farther than even the Bryston 10B sub/Velodyne SMS-1 bass equalizer combo.)