Help to build Analog system in $5K
Sam -- Sat, 08/15/2009 - 12:27
I have about 300 LP's and 800 CD's. I mostly listen to CD's. But I would like to get the best out of the rare LP's that I have. Can anyone recommend a complete LP system including 1. Turntable, 2. Tonearm, 3. Cartridge, 4. Phono Preamp, that works well TOGETHER as a whole and is in $5 to $7 K range maximum? I have a collection of randomly mated old products in storage that are just not enjoyable after some time. A system that works well with everything would be nice investment rather than randomly putting together award winning components....and these days most every product in the magazine gets great reviews....confusing.
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i do not have an analog set up so will not be able to advise you (although I am interested in the responses you get as I am researching entry into vinyl myself). you should probably give folks here a sense of what your existing system is that you will be integrating the analog setup into. also, you may want to state your sonic preferences to help folks tailor suggestions to your needs. i would also visit the Vinyl Assykum on Audio Assylum and solicit suggestions there as well. good luck.
ooops...that should have been Vinyl Asylum...here you go: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=vinyl
Funny thing......as far as the price range goes for near state of art Vinyl sound its hugely variable....ex: VPI Classic, Well Tempered Amadeous, Basis 2200, TW Acoustic Raven One...... all praised very very highly.....but all by different reviewers.... It seems like everyone has a reference level table that they review. Im not looking into the megabuck reference tables....but those under 10K and down to about $2500 all claim they get close to the best. Is it that easy to get vinyl right? If you can get similar sound from a $2k table as a $10K table why would anyone buy the 10K product...it doesn't make sense. I doubt that all those tables are close to reference......thats too many products challanging reference stuff. like I said confusing choices. which one do you trust if you cant audition in the area.
I also see the same with some other brands for example in digital All Bryston products challenge or meet state of art. Now why would anyone spend $5K to $15K on a digital source if Brystons $2K product delivers the same or better quality......I wonder how most every single Bryston product is of reference caliber. Also How can every single Wilson Speaker be of reference caliber....Wilsons I have heard and all of them are not fantastic. I don't know how to judge or evaluate reviews and reviewers based on these findings. Every reviewer claims what they review is best. I guess the best way is if multiple people have tested a product and found similar results as these expert reviews. As a reader narrowing down the final choices become difficult especially the stuff you cant audition. (although Ideally one shouldn't buy anything without auditioning).
As for Vinyl, there are several ways to go and the one I would suggest first is used. There are many used Linn, Sonographe and Thorens turntables floating around at reasonable prices..., or look into the Music Hall and Rega offerings new, many with matched tonearms, and if your'e lucky a decent cartridge could be included in either used or new. Pre-amps; well again there's lots of nice used stuff from those that must have the latest (?) technology. Counterpoint, Conrad Johnson, Van Alstine for whole pre-amps. Musical Fidelity, Bellari and Pro-Ject for ad-ons, and there are others. You may well be able to put together a very respectable vinyl playback system for around $2500.00 or much, much less, you just have to be willing to search.
Warning from a Linn owner. DO NOT purchase a used Linn Sindek, unless you have someone nearby who knows how to maintain them. Linn's are not for the DIY crowd. I blew out the Valhalla board just trying to change the tonearm cable, because I could not fully re-tighten the grounding screw. You may see articles by Jimmy Hughes out there that make it all sound simple. For Jimmy, yes, not for the rest of us.
Sam,
Valid comments for recommendations of a 5-$7,000 lp system would/should be impacted by your electronics and speakers.
At your price point you are able to get an excellent lp system, but obviously not state of the art. As always, there is a point of diminishing returns vs. the amount of money invested. But you can easily have an excellent system that would satisfy most people that are not seeking the "holy grail".
Assuming your electronics and speakers are not too bright sounding, I believe the following possibilities would generate very nice results in most systems. And, no, I am not suggesting that they all sound the same. There are tonal differences in lp systems. But the following are capable of very nice sound in a good hi-fi system:
Phono pre-amps: Phonomena 1 and the better Nova Phnomena. Sutherland PH3D. Simaudio Moon lp5.3. PsAudio GCPH
(These phono pre amps list from $600 up to $1,000 and all allow for matching up to the cartridges i am recomending. )
Cartridges: My preference is for moving coil cartridges over most moving magnets. Again, my price point is no more than $1,000 and
this still allows us excellent quality while keeping the total lp system on the low side of your budget. I.E.:
Lyra Dorian. Sumiko Blackbird, Dynavector 17D3.
Turntables (with arms included): Rega P5. VPI Aries or Scoutmaster. VPI Classic. Project RM10 ( available w/ Blackbird cartridge installed)
Clearaudio Performance w/satisfy arm.
My recommendations are for these turntables with arms included, which are fine, balanced combinations. I would not bother to buy a
separate arm and turntable. The ones above will allow you to hear the differences between the cartridges and phono pre amps listed
above. Yes, there are better arms and turntables, but I am recommending items that offer really fine performance and still stay within your
budget.
The items above, in my opinion, offer a huge "bang for buck" for the amount of money invested. Spending more money can certainly improve performance. But there is always a point where diminishing return begins to set in.
The approximate cost/range of the above recommendations totals about $4,000.00 to about $5,000. If you want to max out your budget, I would suggest buying a better product from these same companies. I think buying a better cartridge &/or phono stage would add the next highest level of increased performance. Others might argue to improve the turntable. Each has valid points. But in my experience, once I had a GOOD turntable/arm, I heard more improvement by changing/upgrading the cartridge. The phono pre amps and turntables above should allow for a similiar upgrade, if desired.
But again, I believe a substantial high level of lp performance cam be accomplished by owning a combination of the above items. And that is possible even at the lower end of your budget up to the maximum.
To get the best explanation for your problem - call Jeff Wells who owns Audible Arts in Campbell, Calif. He is very strong on vinyl and musicality - he has a very large vinyl collection. For digital, he helped set me up with components that match my Magnepan 1.6s that gives me a rich, analog sound. Vincent hybrid preamp and amp, Music Hall DAC 25.2 with Siemens tube added , Rega Apollo cd that now is my transport, and JPS Labs interconnects and speaker cable. For vinyl, I know Jeff thinks highly of Music Hall turntables with Dynavector cartridge and for the phono-stage he loves the Jolida A9 which he upgrades himself for an extra $125. For an amp - the Jolida 100 watt hybrid or the Vincent hybrids. You can get his phone # off his website - audiblearts.com.
don murdza
Sam,
In my response above, I should have also recommended the Music Hall 7.1 turntable. I would buy it without the cartridge and install 1 of the others cartridges recommended in my earlier response.
Also, as a poijnt of reference I have owned VPI, Rega, and Music Hall turntables. All have performed well above their prices and easily match or better their similar competition.
I currently own and use a Rega 25 with a Rega 600 tonearm. The Phono pre-amp is the original Phonomena 1. My cartridge is the Sumiko Blackbird. I also own the Dynavector 17D3. This is a very satisfying lp system for me.
But there are more expensive and better performing options that I suggested for you to put together your possible lp system. Of course the components come at additional cost, but they are appropriate for the $5,000 to $7,000 range you are seeking.
For example, my phono preamp, the Phomomena 1, is the older, original model. It is and has been a fine phono stage... But I am sure all of my other phono pre amp suggestions would be a definite upgrade above mine. And the phono stage is extremely important in producing a high performance lp system. I have also recommended turntable/arm combinations that will surpass mine.
I am familiar with or have owned many of my recommendations. I am confident they are fine components.
Good luck.
Sam, I agree that it is difficult to use turntable reviews to make any choices, but at least they should start you in the direction of the kind of sound you like. Different TT's do not produce the same results. The technologies and philosophies behind each do have consequences in the sound. For instance the high-mass approach (TW, Teres, Galibier, etc.) converge towards one type of sound, whereas the unsuspended VPI's or the suspended Linn's/Thorens/Sota/Origin's have their own sonic footprints. You might try auditioning by type to get a feel for what floats your boat. Also, there are clear synergies between some table/arm designs and particular cartridges that go far beyond getting the resonant arm/cart frequency right. For instance, VPI's get along extremely well with most Dynavectors, so those pairings are preferred.
IMHO one of the most critical preformance areas is setup. A lesser turntable that is really dialed-in can sound MUCH better than a better table without the same setup care. This is where having a local dealer who is analog-savvy can really help. If you are a DIY'er, look into a "Mint LP Tractor" for your table. I can't stress this enough! Getting the setup right makes a huge difference. In fact, the gear you have might sound pretty good if you get the setup right, and would cost you a whole lot less than buying new equipment!
To get real specific, here are some recommendations based on my own (limited) listening experiences:
* Teres 265 table w. Moth arm + Shelter 501 cartridge + PS Audio GCPH = very rich, warm sound at my best buddie's house. Recently he got the Underwood upgrade to the GCPH which was really a nice upgrade. The Teres is a work of art, and the sound is heavenly!
* VPI Scoutmaster + Dynavector DV-20XL + used Aesthetix Rhea phono stage = very quiet backgrounds (altho the Rhea has some tube rush), and a solid soundstage, but is less dynamic than my friend's system. Voices and choral music are to die for on this system, and the Rhea was a huge step forward in achieving wonderful sound. Not a real hard-rocker's system, but damn nice on jazz, folk, classical, vocal.
* Thorens TD150 (from the 70's!!) restored/new maple plinth, with a SME 309? tonearm, + Empire 750 MM cartridge + Audible Illusions M3 preamp with moving magnet phono stage ==> buying used you could score this system for $2k and you would find it extremely rewarding after proper setup. My dad has this system and few other turntable setups I've heard sound as dynamic. This one really rocks out!
So anyway, I think it has less to do with how much you spend and a lot more with finding good synergies between components to get the sound you are looking for. I'd suggest exploring different "house sounds," buying the Turntable used from someone who has loved it, over-spending on the phono stage, and finding the most synergistic cartridges for your table/tonearm.
Hope this helps!
I am a long time VPI owner. Its a great brand because they always create anupgrade path. For example,when Harry realised that the inverted bearing platter sounded much better, he created them for all the turntables he'd ever sold.
Currently, he's been quoted as saying his $2500 Classic is his best work yet, so that's where I would start.
I am also a big fan of the Dynavector Phono amp, if you choose a moving coil cartridge. google reviews and check out its phono enhancer mode.It makes magic with the right moving coil cartridge. its 750, about the same as a dv 20l cartridge.. Thats a pretty nice $4000 system
Spend the rest on records
I started out with an RM-9.1 and a Blackbird Cartridge about 18 months ago. Even my analog-sceptical friends are impressed with the sound quality. You can get the whole package for around $2500. The difference in sound between the 9.1 and the RM-10 is not great enough for me to hear. Your results may vary, but I would encourage you to give this combo a listen. I have no doubts that many of the other above mentioned TT-cartridge combos are very good also.
For that kind of money, as long as you buy a synergistic package where the Table, Arm and Cartridge are designed to work with each other, you can't go far wrong . One caveat: ensure the table has a dedicated Power supply which electrically isolates it and an acoustic support that does likewise. The most obvious unit that comes to mind is the venerable Linn Sondek LP12 (not the MAJIK version)with all current upgrades plus (cheap version!) Akito arm, Akita MC cartridge & Lingo Power supply. or spend a bit extra and get an Ekos SE arm and Clyde MC cartridge. But buy it from a experienced Linn dealer. There should be a bit of change out of $7 using the Ekos/Clyde. With Linn - as VPI - upgrades can be made to the entire range of decks of whatever vintage. I assume you've already got a phono pre-
I agree that it is difficult to make judgements on what may sound good when you have not heard the gear in a system and room that you are familiar with. There is really no quick fix for this, it is all a matter of experience, and I have been doing just this, listening to lots of brands and models for over 35 years now. Over time you will find that your own perceptions will either agree strongly or partially or not at all with certain well respected reviewers. For xample I do not always agree with some, but I find that what Michael Fremer describes in his writing is almost identical to what I hear & experience, so I can trust his views on how things sound as being extremely close to what I experience. I have combinations that I know just click and others that I have heard which sound incredibly bad yet are loved by others. End result, trust your own ears, listen to as wide a range of products as you can and you'll benefit in the end. Hope this helps.PQ
I own a Sumiko Blackbird and have 2 friends who also use this cartridge. I run mine in an ET2 airbearing arm on a Sota Cosmos turntable, with a good friend using his in a Michell Tecnoarm (a modified Rega RB250) on a Michell Gyro table. I use a VTL TP6.5 phono stage, he uses a Whest 2.0 - both sound full bodied with excellent soundstage and an open, airy character. For low cost phono stages the Cambridge Audio 640P is really good for very few dollars, but sounds best with higher output mm cartridges.
I own a Sumiko Blackbird and have 2 friends who also use this cartridge. I run mine in an ET2 airbearing arm on a Sota Cosmos turntable, with a good friend using his in a Michell Tecnoarm (a modified Rega RB250) on a Michell Gyro table. I use a VTL TP6.5 phono stage, he uses a Whest 2.0 - both sound full bodied with excellent soundstage and an open, airy character. For low cost phono stages the Cambridge Audio 640P is really good for very few dollars, but sounds best with higher output mm cartridges.
Not sure if it is too late for you, but why not put $5000 in a Rega P9, with its matched RB1000 very high end Tonearm. Totally turnkey, set if up and forget aobut it for years of faithful operation. Or get it significantly cheaper used, maybe with the older but still very fine RB 900 tonearm. If you want to stick with a moving magnet, like many of us (oh, the horror), get a Rega Exact to match, $550, or a high grade Grado. And you still have $1500 or so to find your Phono pre-amp, and upgrade a little in cartridge later. Total turnkey, spend your time listening to your vinyl, and buying some new tunes.
On the other hand, why not go way down, and spend the difference on Vinyl. With only 300 lps, you could listen to 15 a week and be done before you know it, and overplay them when you start over and do it again almost twice more in a year. Invest in the vinyl. Listen to the music.
WRW5,
You make an excellent point!!!!! I only have 300Lps that are old, rare and not available on CD. I will be listening to them a few times a year only. I love the music on these LPs but thinking logically they are not enough to justify an expensive LP system even though I can afford one. The goal was to extract as much good music from them as I can even if its once in a while. I do keep buying new music in digital format so that is a good investment. Im still thinking what to purchase for an LP system that will be used 20-30% of the times in a year and 70-80% of my playback will be digital...........thanks to everyone else too for their input...appreciate it.