Great Music Courtesy of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra

Amandela77 -- Tue, 03/27/2007 - 17:15

Dear Mr. Valin:

I undertand that you reside in the Queen City and sometimes frequent Music Hall. I am a Chicago resident who visits family and the other CSO in Cincinnati several times a year. Most recently, I was treated to a lovely performance of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 featuring piano virtuoso Yefim Bronfman.

What stands out most clearly from that night is the sound of the CSO string section. I have never, ever heard better. Not from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, not from the Berlin Philharmonic, not from the Czech Philharmonic...

The CSO's romantic, burnished presentation sounds different, sweeter certainly, more rounded, and to my way of thinking, asthetically prefereable to say, the more muscular presentation of the Chicago string section, excellent as the latter may be.

What troubles me is a growing tendency amongst the hi-fi literati to downplay the importance of the "real thing" in assessing a particular component's performance.

While this trend is certainly not prevelant at TAS, it has become prevelant at journals like Stereophile, where reviewers like Sam Tellig and Michael Fremer have at times characterized comparasions to the absolute as largely irrelevant.

Where does TAS stand on this issue? While I love reading about, and from time to time listening in dealer's showrooms to Magico Minis, Avid turntables, and top-shelf electronics, no high end system that I have ever heard has come close to matching the sounds I heard at Cincinnati's Music Hall earlier this month.

It might be helpful to discuss this issue in light of HP's recent provocative comments indicating that we will never successfully recreate the sound of live music in the home environment, but rather that recent advances in high end component design perhaps suggests the emergence of a new paradigm.

Thoughts?

Jeffery Brown

Robert Harley -- Fri, 03/30/2007 - 09:59

Mr. Brown:

The concept of "the absolute sound" (the sound of acoustic instruments in a real space) is alive and well at The Absolute Sound. The existence of the absolute sound gives us a reference by which to judge the quality of reproduced music, and is essential in audio reviewing. Concomitantly, studio recordings that include electronic instruments, artificial reveberation, and instruments recorded directly into the console can also reveal important aspects of component performance. An example is the power of a kick drum and bass guitar (recorded without an amplifier) working together to anchor and drive the rhythm. I make the distinction of the bass being recorded directly into the console rather than through an amplifier and speaker stack that is miked. The latter is an acoustic source that is just as valid a reference as a double-bass.

The wider the range of source material used in product evaluation, the more accurate and detailed the conclusions, in my view.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

Robert Harley

Jonathan Valin -- Fri, 03/30/2007 - 12:13

Mr. Brown,

Alas, I missed the Rach Three with Bronfman, but have heard the CSO often enough to attest that its string playing is exceptionally lovely. Next time you're in town, try to take in one of the Chamber Players Series concerts at Memorial Hall; the music, performed by CSO players (generally from the string section), will confirm your high esteem of the orchestra’s musicians and musicianship.

The larger question you raise—the relevance of the “absolute sound” to hi-fi and hi-fi reviewing, given the manifest impossibility of ever duplicating it—is a doozie, much too big and complicated to answer in the kind of detail it deserves on this forum. In a nutshell, however, here is what I think.

Harry Pearson originally proposed the idea of comparing the sound of music played back on a stereo system to the sound of unamplified (i.e., acoustic) instruments in a real space, not because he thought a stereo system would ever sound identical to a symphony orchestra but because he felt the sound of an unamplified violin or piano or voice was an unimpeachable standard—the purest measure of fidelity. Most of us know what a violin or piano sounds like, and all of us know what a voice sounds like. In other words, we recognize the “realness” of the real thing when we hear it. Comparing playback to anything else—even to the mastertape from which an LP was made—is comparing a copy to a copy, playback to playback (and to the vagaries of recording, mastering, and playback gear).

As instinctually appealing as HP’s approach is (at least, to me), it does rather sidestep several important questions. First, to compare a recorded violin to a real one is to assume tacitly that the recorded violin should sound like a real violin. However, what if the recorded violin isn’t a well-recorded violin? Then what should it sound like—or, rather, using the absolute as a benchmark how do we know that, in making a recorded violin sound more like a real violin (or our "idea" of a real violin), our playback system is reproducing that violin accurately?

Second, to compare a recorded violin to a real one is to assume tacitly that we want our played-back violin to sound more like a real instrument (warts and all), rather than less—or, to put this differently, that in listening to recordings we listen, first and foremost, for fidelity to life. This raises the very legitimate question of whether fidelity to the real thing makes music more enjoyable and involving—whether sounding “real” is more important to a listener than sounding “good.” Putting aside the question of whether sounding “real” is sounding “good” (I think it is), I can see where an argument could be made for putting together a stereo system not on the basis of the absolute sound (or any absolute), but solely on the basis of the kind of sound that is most appealing to you, the listener, on the music that you listen to most often. The truth is I think we do a large bit of this, perforce. Even Harry, I think, would concede that his notion of the “absolute” is unique to him, and that mine is unique to me. Of course, we both aim to get that violin to sound like a real violin. But, given the impossibility of perfect reproduction, different listeners can legitimately argue about what constitutes “real” (or “more real”). For instance, I tend to prioritize presence and dynamics; Robert E. Greene prioritizes flat frequency response.

Third, the absolute sound is acoustic music. But what if you don’t listen (or care for) acoustic music? What if you prefer rock ’n’ roll or electronica? Would you end up with the same system that HP has—the system that best preserves his notion of the absolute sound? I doubt it.

I’ve said this so many times in the past that I sort of hate to repeat it again, but…a stereo system (no matter what your point of comparison) isn’t a bunch of equipment; it is an idea—YOUR idea—of what constitutes the most realistic or the most enjoyable (or, in all likelihood, some unique blend of each) reproduction of the music that you listen to most often. Reviewers, especially reviewers whose taste in music and sound are similar to yours, can help point you in the right directions; they cannot decide what your “idea” of great playback should be. That you have to do.

Andy Simpson -- Sun, 09/21/2008 - 10:17

Amandela77 wrote:
What troubles me is a growing tendency amongst the hi-fi literati to downplay the importance of the "real thing" in assessing a particular component's performance.

.....no high end system that I have ever heard has come close to matching the sounds I heard at Cincinnati's Music Hall earlier this month.

Jeffery,

This growing tendency is also reflected in the recording industry - perhaps even more so.

The entire industry is morbidly afraid to make this comparison because they know that they will suffer by the comparison and they cannot answer why.

After exhaustive refinement of both digital resolution & system bandwidth, there has been no progress on this front and as a result the industry has wrongly concluded that it is an impossible task.

I do not share this view.

As a microphone designer, I have made it my purpose to answer this question.

My work places unique emphasis on the mechanical performance of the ear, the microphone & the speaker, and such comparison to real sources is routine part of my development process.

I regularly take a pair of microphones & a pair of speakers into the orchestral hall and reproduce something very close to the sound of the orchestra.

However, my approach & microphone design is unique, as are my results and it will take some time before this filters down to the end user.

If you could arrange such a test with the CSO, I would be very happy to fly over and demonstrate.

Or, if you have access to a high-output horn-loaded speaker system, the mp3s in my signature below should get you very close to a believable reproduction.

Andy

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