Goldmund Telos 400
majesticgiraffe -- Sun, 06/15/2008 - 22:40
anyone with experience on these? Have used Goldmund electronics since 1986 other than a brief stint with a Levinson No 23 power amp. My dad had a mim 8.0 and it had no oomph but was transparent and great timbral presentation. My other experience has only been with a Goldmund SRI2 running maggie 1.6' s and it was sweet for the small space I ran the system in.
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Our reviewer, Alan Taffel, has owned Goldmund electronics himself for quite a number of years. Perhaps he can comment on the model you mention.
Being new to the forum I read a bunch of posts from a few years ago where a user sacduser was going to get the Telos 400 and mate them to Magico Minis but I never was able to read the final outcome.
I have heard the Telos 400 only at trade shows and therefore cannot fairly comment on its sound. (Goldmund turned down a request for a review sample.) However, I am encouraged to by the fact that, with the Telos series, Goldmund has finally moved away from the JOB amplification stage. Though the latter has much to recommend it -- Goldmund's typically stunning dynamics and resolution, for example -- I have always felt it lacked the timbral magic and continuousness of the company's pre-JOB designs. Here I am in complete agreement with majesticgiraffe about the Mimesis 8, which I personally own. I also own a pair of the more elaborate, JOB-based 29.4 monoblocks. Until recently, I preferred the 29.4 overall. As majesticgiraffe points out, the MM8 was a terrific though somewhat overly mellow amp. However, I recently lent my 8 to my Goldmund-savvy technician and invited him to soup it up as he saw fit. He replaced many of the original key parts with more modern, higher-performance versions, though of course maintaining the original Goldmund amp modules. The result was way beyond my hopes and expectations. The 8 now maintains all its intrinsic goodness, but has gained a new level of dynamic prowess, losing its previous restraint. It now easily out-performs the 29.4, and aims a spotlight on the JOB-related weaknesses I've pointed out. The point of all this is: I'm not sure Goldmund wouldn't have been better off evolving its original amp module and surrounding circuitry, rather than taking the JOB detour. For this reason, I am happy to see that the detour is at an end, though we'll obviously have to judge the results on their merits.
One thing I CAN comment on sonically is Goldmund's proprietary Alize D/A circuitry, which is included in the Telos 400. In my experience, the Alize DAC, and the ADC as well, is superb -- among the best I've heard. So this is another point in the Telos 400's favor.
I will try again to get ahold of one of Goldmund's new amps; if not the 400 then another model with the Telos circuitry. There seems to be more interest in Goldmund out there than I imagined, so I'll do my best to bring you all a full report.
Alan Taffel
TAS Senior Writer
Thanks for the quick reply. This forum is awesome. I would love to be able to meet and talk with a Goldmund savy technician. My 22 yr old Goldmund ST4 turntable could use a going over setup. I have never been able to find anyone on the West Coast with knowledge of Goldmund tables. It seems they all disappeared. A local tech put a Clearaudio Titanium cartridge in the table two years ago and with aging it needs a review setup. If anyone knows of any Goldmund savy techs in the San Francisco area please advise. Also if it is possible to get the name of the tech who did the mim8 mod that would be awesome. I heard the Mim 29m once and was stunned by its low level resolution. To imagine that the Mim 8 could surpass it is a dream. I once had the mim 7 phono stage updated by the then tech at Goldmund LA (4 yrs ago) and when it was done it was unbelievable. I traded it in not really knowing how much it was desired and then saw it on Audiogon for a few years at close to $4000. The interest as so great that Goldmund then brought out their Mim 7.3 phono. Thanks again to all the info that is and has been available. It is a pleasure hearing the knowledge, opinions and experience of all of you. Please do talk and report about Goldmund. Throughout the years the following has existed but the reports and info on it pretty non existent. Like I said I owned a Levinson No 23 for a few years in the late 80's. It had low level oomph but was very grainy and bright. Also a speaker I hardly ever heard about was the Goldmund Metaphor. I heard it a few times and was impressed. Then it disappeared.
The technician who upgraded my Mimesis 8 was Bill Thalmann of Music Technology, Inc. here on the East Coast. The contact info is as follows:
MUSIC TECHNOLOGY, INC.
5418 Port Royal Rd.
Springfield, VA 22151
703-764-7005, EXT 106
703-764-0079 (fax)
www.musictechnology.com
If you decide to send Bill an amp for upgrade, please be sure you have the original packing material, and expect to wait several months for the unit to be returned (he's a busy guy) unless you pay a rush fee.
As for the "Goldmund Metaphor" speaker, I am unaware of any such model. However, you might be getting confusing with the Metaphor Acoustics speaker, which was built by ex-Goldmund employees, sold by several Goldmund dealers, and served as an excellent match for Goldmund electronics. The Metaphor 2 and 5 models received rave reviews in Audio Adventure and other magazines of the day. The Metaphor 1, featuring a Raven ribbon tweeter, was demo'd at one CES, where it sounded awesome, but the company went under before it could reach production. That pre-production unit has served as my reference speaker for nearly ten years. If you can find used Metaphor 2's or the less expensive 5's on Audiogon or elsewhere, they should be considered a major "find".
Alan Taffel
TAS Senior Writer
was there ever a Goldmund Meta speaker?
reno hi fi has the metaphor 2 listed for sale
In Goldmund lingo, the term "Meta" is used to identify its more "affordable" (a relative term) products. In the mid-Nineties, the Meta Laser and Meta Convert were its affordable CD transport and DAC, respectively. I do not recollect there ever being a Meta speaker at that time. More recently, the company resurrected the term and a variant on it, Metis. This was at the 2006 CES show, where Goldmund -- including Michel Reverchon himself -- held forth in a penthouse suite at the Bellagio. There, they introduced a Metis digital preamp, power amp and new Metis speakers, all very reasonably priced (whole system, about $12k, if memory serves). I heard the system, driven by the sublime SR universal player, and was deeply impressed. This little system sounded more realistic than many of the big, expensive rigs I'd been hearing at the Alexis Park main display. So perhaps you are thinking of Metis rather than Meta speakers. In the same timeframe, Goldmund did announce something called a Logos Meta speaker, which was to be a Logos (their current mini-monitor) with a ribbon tweeter instead of the Logos' soft-dome.
The problem, as with so many things Goldmund, is in the distribution. The Logos (non-Meta) speakers did make it to production and I reviewed them in TAS about two years ago as part of the so-called SR system. However, I'm not certain either the Metis range or the Logos Meta have actually been introduced in the U.S. I'll check with Goldmund to be sure, but none of these shows up on their web site.
Alan Taffel
TAS Senior Writer
I found this post about Goldmund Meta speakers....they were about 3 ft tall and and 2 ft wide and were all methacrylate outside...short lived..around 1993....the Metis line is not for USA I am told.
The dialogue never came with a manual. Great speaker but surpassed by a great margin in the Goldmund Meta speakers which use the same drivers but with a far superior crossover and sloped panel. I've owned Dialogues and Super Dialogues and the Meta's are the most musical. The Rowland sounds musical on the Dialogues but is not appropriate. Although the speaker is sensitive at 96 db, the focal drivers need current to really sound right. A small Krell ksa50S or Accuphase a50V with a cat pre is the absolute best combination for these. Stay away from goldmund electronics as these speakers were designed before any Goldmund electronics were ever made.
this was from a google on Goldmund meta and comes form an audiogon thread.
There are many of us Goldmund aficionados and you are the rare reviewer who actually knows and has written about the product. Would be nice to hear more reports about their current stuff. I remember in years past when HP reviewed their amp and cd player he was definitely liking them. However they have never as a company gotten much press yet have a renowned world following; hard to figure.
I have tried to like/love Ayre and Boulder and yet find that when listening to them they sound good at first but then become fatiguing. What I have learned from 36 years of audiophile interest is to trust my ears. When I find myself relaxed and not trying to listen or not tired and fatigued by the music then I know it is a good system for me. The Goldmunds have given that presentation where as the others got tiring.
I don't know how else to explain it but have read similar findings on people discovering the Magico's. There seems to be a sense of correctness and effortlessness. The music seems slower as the guy from Linn says.
Can anyone get a hold of sacduser and ask him to update us on the Telos 400? I remember he purchased them in 2006 and mated them to the magico's. Wonder if he is still using the the Telos 400 and how two years of living with them has turned out? :?:
majesticgiraffe wrote:Can anyone get a hold of sacduser and ask him to update us on the Telos 400? I remember he purchased them in 2006 and mated them to the magico's. Wonder if he is still using the the Telos 400 and how two years of living with them has turned out? :?:
Hello Majesticgiraffe, Although I've upgraded from the original Minis to Version II Magico Minis, the Telos 400 monoblocks are still in my system. From 2004 to 2006, I spent two years auditioning amps. I heard very nice amps, including top models from Macintosh, Bryston, Pass, Burmeister, Halcro and Dartzeel. While they sounded different in character, they all achieved roughly a comparable level of resolution and realism, with the Dartzeels sounding particularly transparent. It seemed Amp technology seemed to have converged upon a ceiling that could not be transcended. I had almost decided to buy Pass Labs XA amps when my dealer, upon a whim, stuck the Goldmund 18.4 monoblocks into the system. I still remember the moment when the music started playing. I had never heard such stunning levels of realism before. It seemed to be a totally different experience and level of engagement with the music. The dealer must have felt sadistic that day, because he then replaced the 18.4's with Telos 400. I not only heard a greater measure of the dynamism and life of the 18.4's, but the music sounded even more wholesome, present, fluid, expressive and refined. The Telos experience was altogether another level beyond the 18.4.
I could not believe my ears, so I went back several times over a month to compare the Telos with the Top level Halcro and Pass amps that the dealer had on hand. He was really patient. Each time, it became increasingly clear that the Telos conveyed musical performances with a liveness unmatched by any amp I had heard. They seemed to be a category unto themselves. After such thorough listening, I knew I would not be satisfied with anything less than the Telos. I would have to fork out their asking price. I'd like to recommend that you audition the Telos extensively as well. For listeners looking for amps that add a melting sweet countenance to the music, the Telos will not soften the music. So such listeners will be disappointed with the Telos. It will only convey any warmth expression that is expressed by musicians in the original performance. But if you are looking for that musical connection that comes from feeling that you are in the venue and performer is live and present, I think you will be thrilled by the Telos. The Mini II's are a tough load, 4 ohms and 87 db. but the Telos 400's drive them effortlessly. I have not heard every amp in existence, though, so I'm sure there are many better amplifiers which are not in my price range. Please let us know what you think after the auditions!
sacduser,
How are you, my friend? It's been awhile since we chatted. As usual, your post was excellent.
Jon
Back on the Meta Speaker front, I have learned that such an animal did in fact exist as an evolution of the Dialogue. The speaker was a two-way floor stander with an angled front baffle for time alignment. Apparently sounded pretty good in its day, and many of its design elements can be found -- though at a higher level of development and refinement -- in the Metaphor speakers described in my earlier post. If anyone needs more info on the Meta speaker, I can obtain the specs.
Alan Taffel
TAS Senior Writer
jvalin wrote:sacduser,
How are you, my friend? It's been awhile since we chatted. As usual, your post was excellent.
Jon
Good to hear from you Jvalin. I'll admit these Telos observations are limited within the context of the amps I've heard, most of which are sub $30,000 designs. I'd be keen to hear how the Telos measures up to mega-amps that you've tested, like the 610T. At that level, I'm sure there are many more flavours to choose from, and more interesting comparisons to make.
Please pardon the tardiness, but I still aspire to provide such a comprehensive peer assessment of the Telos once I dispense with the current string of projects on my plate by November. Hopefully it won't be too late by then . .
Hi folks, in the world of super high end amplifiers it is very difficult to say which is the best. Goldmund Telos is certainly one of the world's best, but so is MBL, Boulder and FM Acoustics. I have to add another amplifier brand that isn't mentioned before and that is JDF Audio from France. JDF Audio made world's best pro studio amplifiers in the mid 80's to mid 90's, namely the HQS 3200's. These amplifiers were considered the best and even better than the FM Acoustics mono's. The former JDF is now JMF. The highly reputable Rey Audio of Japan also co-works with JMF. FM Acoustics (from Switserland) is also excellent but we never hear something about it. I heard a story that a fellow audiophile from Hong-Kong replaced his Goldmund Telos with FM Acoustics, because he found the FM better than the Goldmund!
Chris
I have lived with the Telos 400's for more than a year. They are very lively, fast, with very good pinpoint imaging. they are however, on the lean side of neutarlity and perhaps light on bass.
Thanks for the info on the 400. I bought a pair of these and the Mim 37S preamp to drive Maggies 20.1's. I finally have reached the point where I sit down and just relax and listen to the liquidity of the music. It is slower and inviting and relaxed. The timbre draws me in. There is not an effort to listen. It just draws me in. I have been chasing this sort of sound since 1976. The big difference seems to be the effortlessness of the 400's. The mono blocs make such a difference. Synthesizers have that lush get and touch them feel. The pace and rhythm of the music is there without asking without looking. I have heard some incredible deep bass that I went' What was that from another room?"....stuff I never expected nor had heard before ever.
I am waiting for a rack from Sound Anchors to arrive so I can get all the electronics off the floor/carpet. Should be interesting.
I am sure the FM acoustics is incredible but there is little chance of hearing them side by side in the US.
So for now I am settled for a while and just improving the room acoustics.
Thanks for the info on the Telos 400. They were just as you said. Inviting and with a sense of rightness for me that I had never expected. :D
hey! pls tell us about the Telos now u ve lived with them for some time>
Hi MG! I have been trying to rack my electronics but always found they still best (with good spiked platforms) stayed on floor/carpet. Latest was trying out the Pagode HD12 Master Reference from Finite. The overall result was a slight cleaning to the sound and musical pictures, but at the cost of loosing a bit of weight and foundation to it. So back to where I started--the floor! It will be interesting to hear your experience with the Sound Anchor. Cheers!
dazzdax wrote: FM Acoustics (from Switserland) is also excellent but we never hear something about it. I heard a story that a fellow audiophile from Hong-Kong replaced his Goldmund Telos with FM Acoustics, because he found the FM better than the Goldmund!
Chris
Hi Chris, yeah over here too, many fellow philes audition, some even travelled overseas searching for the ultimate, and almost always (unless cost deterrent) ended buying the FMs. Mentioned compared were the big Krells, Boulders, Burmeister, Telos 800 and 2500, Soulutions, MBL, and some top notch tube gears too. It amazes me so much that I decided to start a thread, hoping that some guys in the know will contribute their thoughts on it. Curious to know how this underexposed overachiever internationally stands amongst the SOTAs of today.. Cheers!
I ended up buying a Sound Anchors 5 level rack. I put each component on the platform and the Telos 400 fit beautifuuly on the rack. The slide bars fit percectly under the fit. They have ample room for ventilation and the rack is veryu massive and stable. The sound of the system was way increased toward more low level resolution and frim bass. The pace and rythmn and texture/tone.timbre all 'shored up". They were great before but the stand added a solidness and underfooting that sounded better. hard to describe. The sound was more palpable and had had more coherence. I did not know what I had been missing and was happy with the system on the floor. Now I was enjoying increased realism and a sense of rightness. Overall the presentation was more relaxed.
The next upgrade was the Shakti hallographs and that was a rvelation. Which is described in the audio racks post. After using the hallographs I removed them and did not want to listen very long. Get a pair of halographs and try tehm www.dccblowout gives yo a $100 credit towards vinyl and drop ships to your house for the 30 day trial. I knew after a few days I would not be returning them. It was like I had upgrade two levels of cables.
Congratulation on the results! ..Do you have your new rack in front between speakers or along the side walls now?
Rack is in between speakers..wish I knew how to post a pic here.
I just stumbled onto this thread and wanted to provide some information on the Goldmund Meta loudspeaker, which I have owned now for about five years. It is actually a three way speaker, and yes it is slanted for time alignment, uses Focal drivers especially made for Goldmund, and has a very good crossover built inside it. Beautiful surface finish. I use Audio Note amplification with it, and it sounds wonderful. Also has good WAF. Just thought folks might want to know more about this speaker from a current owner.
I'm now getting synergistic results driving Sound Labs Ultimate 1 PX Electrostatics with the Telos 400. As a single driver phase-coherent transducer, the U1 is able to fully exploit the perfect ultrasonic phase alignment of the Telos. With its lightning-quick reflexes, the Telos also comes into own with fast-acting electrostatics like the Sound Labs. Electrostatics are difficult reactive loads to driver, but the Telos does so without breaking a sweat.