Focal Grande Utopia EM pics
Marba -- Sat, 08/09/2008 - 19:05
The pictures are from Taiwan Show, Elliot enjoy your secret is now out!
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Mark, I am tired of this stuff to be honest. I did not hear what they heard and where they heard it. I don't really know who they are and their experience or their bias and I am tired of fighting out here in space. I only know that what I have set up and tuned is not what they describe, I do know that in my years in audio that lot's of people talk the talk but can not walk the walk. I am not specifically talking about the posters here for it is possible that what they heard SUCKS. I have heard very few systems in all my years in audio actually do what they are supposed to do so how can I argue that what they heard did not sound as they describe. I will say that I believe that the Focal Grand Em is one of the worlds best speakers however without the right set up, the right room and gear NO speaker has a chance and I don't care who's it is. It is sad that many dealers and most shows CAN NOT produce great sound and most clients get used to what they have whether it is good or bad and only reject what is different. Alas this is High End Audio.
First things to say cast cables are only equal to Nordost Heimdall and are far from the best cables Nordost makes. Second it sounds like that from what they heard the settings of the speaker are incorrect and that is causing the bass to over load the room or the room has issues in the 80-150 hz area that makes everything sound thick and heavy. This is possible since the Utopia has incredible base and goes very deep and it has power in that area like very few other speakers. Third I am not an expert in the analog arena but I would think that that a LP-12 might have serious issues in that area as well and it seems that the sources used were not equal to the rest of the system in my opinion. I have wall to wall sound in my room with digital so it should also happen with analog and if it doesn't why is it the speaker and not the set up or the room?
Now having pointed that out that it is possible that what Halcro and Friend heard was the combination of all the factors and it may be as they described or not .
It seems that many hear what they want and that includes all the expensive items in the market including the Magico M5, MBL Xtreme and others so it is only a verbal exercise of the weakest proportions and to me becoming really boring. I know what I have heard and I know what I have in store so for you and the others that have experienced it is is truely and great sound and product.
Be well all!
Elliott:
What I suspect you are failing to take into account are the drastically different tastes amongst audiophiles. I have tremendous respect for the knowledge and experience of individuals such as TAS's Jonathan Valin and Robert Harley, and Stereophile's John Atkinson, but that does not change the fact that their tastes are, overall, drastically different from my own. Despite the obvious strengths of speakers such as the Wilson Maxx's and the large JM Labs of which you are so found, these sound - - to my - - ear, nothing like real music. This may be inconceivable to you, and you may choose to dismiss me as a kook, or someone who must be deaf, but for what it's worth, there are quite a few devoted audiophiles who feel as I do. Of course, you would most likely turn up your nose at the speakers (and associated electronics) that I hold in high esteem. Horses for courses, as the saying goes.
My most recent article in Stereo Times describes some of my objections to the above-named systems. I doubt it will sway you or change your mind, but perhaps it will at least help you understand an alternative point of view.
Best regards,
Larry Borden
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
"Mark, I am tired of this stuff to be honest. I did not hear what they heard and where they heard it. I don't really know who they are and their experience or their bias and I am tired of fighting out here in space. I only know that what I have set up and tuned is not what they describe, I do know that in my years in audio that lot's of people talk the talk but can not walk the walk. I am not specifically talking about the posters here for it is possible that what they heard SUCKS. I have heard very few systems in all my years in audio actually do what they are supposed to do so how can I argue that what they heard did not sound as they describe. I will say that I believe that the Focal Grand Em is one of the worlds best speakers however without the right set up, the right room and gear NO speaker has a chance and I don't care who's it is. It is sad that many dealers and most shows CAN NOT produce great sound and most clients get used to what they have whether it is good or bad and only reject what is different. Alas this is High End Audio.
First things to say cast cables are only equal to Nordost Heimdall and are far from the best cables Nordost makes. Second it sounds like that from what they heard the settings of the speaker are incorrect and that is causing the bass to over load the room or the room has issues in the 80-150 hz area that makes everything sound thick and heavy. This is possible since the Utopia has incredible base and goes very deep and it has power in that area like very few other speakers. Third I am not an expert in the analog arena but I would think that that a LP-12 might have serious issues in that area as well and it seems that the sources used were not equal to the rest of the system in my opinion. I have wall to wall sound in my room with digital so it should also happen with analog and if it doesn't why is it the speaker and not the set up or the room?
Now having pointed that out that it is possible that what Halcro and Friend heard was the combination of all the factors and it may be as they described or not .
It seems that many hear what they want and that includes all the expensive items in the market including the Magico M5, MBL Xtreme and others so it is only a verbal exercise of the weakest proportions and to me becoming really boring. I know what I have heard and I know what I have in store so for you and the others that have experienced it is is truely and great sound and product.
Be well all!"
Agreed Elliot! Something had to be wrong with the set up, because I agree with your description of the sound coming out of these speakers.
Dear Larry, I am not dismissing you as a kook ( although you might be one LOL) or difference in tastes. I am however condeming people who see and hear something and make a 100 percent conclusion on its value when in fact they have not really heard it, or have no clue ( many fit in here by the way), or are just review audiophiles and by this I mean they read the mags and therefore they are experts!!! I read brain surgury for dummies last night and now Larry I will gladly operate on you since I am an expert :). I mean no offense there just making a point.
I love and listen to the Focals and I also love the CLX and the Magico V.3 all of which I have in my store. I really like the Focal Diablo's, Meridian 7000 and 8000 , Scaena 1.4 ( at H.P.'s), smaller one's at my friends home,and love the MIni's and M5's, perfect 8;s that I heard at the show and quite a few others. I agree that they have differences and to this effect people can choose which of these differences are most important to them and what fits them. I have no issue with this I do however have big issues with audio slander and the dismissile of great products because they can't afford them , don't sell them, don't own the, have made better by themselves and a thousand other BS stories.
I just read a post on JV's blog from the Halcro guy and he has custom made speakers that he built..... how convenient to dismiss everyone else's. He owns Halcro pre and power and says everyone can't understand them... more BS. I am or at least I was a Halcro dealer and lived with the Dm-10 and DM-78 power amplifiers for a long time and they are NOT Soulutions, which I do not sell , don't hold a candle to the Krell Evo'sand can't carry an ARC 610t's and Ref 3's jock!!!! However he can condem something based on what someone else put together is to me foolish and tells me something about what he is like as a listener as well. Do you and others really think that the people and designers at all the top companies are idiots and deaf? I don't. I have met many of them, I have listened with many of them and discussed with many of them. At the high end today there are few bad products just bad set ups and bad listeners. I am not saying it's all great but I am saying that this is the golden age of high end audio and its a shame that more people don't get it.
JV, HP etc at least get to try and hear many products and live with them, like I do and many other dealers do, some good and perhaps someothers not at all, the good ones , both reviewers and dealers, listen and work with the products and systems to find out what they do and what they don't do.
You have the right to choose the products you like and that make you smile! I can never argue with that however rash decisions based on uninformed listening sessions do nothing but create issues and make IMHO posters sound foolish. I have heard so many horrible demonstrations and horrible systems in homes that people raved about to me I can't count anymore. If you can produce great sound in your home and your room and it is truely that then you sir are in the small minority and you seem to be civil as well and for that I thank you!
I hope that explains my point of view,
Regards,
Elliot
"I am or at least I was a Halcro dealer.........."
Hmmm........I wonder why Mr Goldman was a Halcro dealer after the disdain he obviously felt for their sound?
This is why most serious audiophiles do not trust dealers in general. They simply have a vested commercial interest and a 'not so hidden agenda'?
It seems to not have occurred to Mr. Goldman that the proliferation in audio forums (and forums of all types for that matter), is due primarily to the fact that we, the consumers or general public, wish to hear the opinions of other consumers who have experience and have no commercial vested interests to cloud their advice.
Of course there are dealers who try to 'invade' these forums and some (like Bill Feil and John Rutan over on Audiogon) actually manage to contribute without pushing their commercial barrows too strenuously. Generally though, we don't want dealers on these forums, and if you read all the postings by Elliot Goldman on this particular forum you will understand why?
The value of this TAS forum as I see it (and the difference to others like Audiogon), is that we the consumers, can liaise with the reviewers of TAS.
We all understand the politics of magazines and manufacturers and the sensitivity of reviewing equipment balanced with the advertising dollar and the simple duty of care involved in potentially hasty damaging judgements? So whilst the actual reviewers need to be somewhat circumspect in what they can or cannot say in print, we consumers need feel no such restraint.
"Do you and others really think that the people and designers at all the top companies are idiots and deaf?"
Sometimes tragically, it really appears like that with some companies?
Here are speakers, the Grand Utopia III (nobody has told me the difference to the Utopia EM), which cost AU$270,000 (US$190,000).
This is more than the the MBL Extremes, the Magico M5 or M6 i think, and certainly more than 99% of all speakers on earth.
My friend Richard and I heard them with all the correct Krell amplification in a wonderfully dedicated listening room and I simply wrote my impressions on this forum to inform other audiophiles of the shock we both experienced.
Other consumer audiophiles may have different experiences to convey and I would love to read them, but if this forum becomes a dealer-invested advertising and propoganda service........then I'm outta here.
I think sir you like to hear your own opinion and no one is more an EXPERT than you. I am sorry to offend the great Halcro since his is the only opinion that one should listen too. It was easy to destroy the Focal Grand Utopia 111 EM but theewonderful room, and perfect amplification he could determine and the speaker was the cause, not the set up, not the turntable, not the cables but the speakers. Why we ask becaus he is the EXPERT and only he can tell waht the stuff sounds like, Why you ask becuase he makes his own speakers and he owns some expensive amps.
Please you are right this internet stuff is just crap and its good to know that you and only you understand me and my motives as welll as everyone else here. I was invited to post here by some of the reviewers to express a point of view that was lacking here. I have had many of the posters in my store and have heard my systems, like Sunday Niagara here, but of course Mr. Halco we all can't compare with your genuine morals, intelligence and golden ears. Harry, Jon, Robert they all are idiots its you that we should listen too. Thanks for blessing us with you infinite wisdom and guidance!
One more thing the speaker you heard has hundreds of possible set up options for room placement, seating position, image height, bass control and levels to balance the system out in a wide variety of situations and personal tastes. This you know nothing about and of course do not know how to do and did not bother to investigate.
I wonder what your motives are and as I said I do not hide who I am and what I do.
I think there are many excellent products today and they take a lot of time and personal hands on experience and expertise to know what they do. If you read say Mr. Valin's comments about things like the MBL extreme which was terrible at the show but not at his home, or the Scaena which in a couple of shows he did not like and then said wonderful things at the last CES. This was not the product changing but the room and set up.
THE ROOM AND SET UP IS AT LEAST HALF THE BATTLE!!!!!!!
Hidden agenda? By the way Mr. Halco I carry neither of those products, or Soulutions or Magnepan, or Quad and numerous other fine items but I do not diss them on an open forum because of my arrogance and ignorance like you. If you believe that Focal is unable to make a world class speaker system then dear Sir you are greatly mistaken and perhaps you should investigate the cause for what you say you heard rather than publish a one man survey!
Enjoy,
Elliot
Guys,
Is this really how you want to start out your Thursday Morning? Arguing over how a speaker sounds? Come on, if the both of you guys where in front of each other you would not say these things so why do you feel it is ok to go on the internet and bash each other. Halcro- If you don't like how something sounds then it is not a problem to voice that opinion but making remarks about Elliot's manufacturer relationships or his so called "hidden agenda" is not right. This is an area you have no business commenting on. Elliot- please remember that everyone hears things differently and just because Halcro does not like something does not mean everyone else doesn't like it either.
I have listened to the Focal twice now and the first time I was not impressed but the second was using different equipment more in line with my own preferences and I enjoyed it immensely. AUDIO IS FUN and it is a remarkable industry that we all should enjoy so lets keep AVGuide a great welcoming place for new comers to enjoy the world of audio.
Just my humble two sence,
Have a good Thursday,
Cole Hatfield
Nawrocka Distribution
.
Cole,
No it's not however words can be harmful and in some cases destructive and too many people that read this crap believe what they read instead of doing thier own listening and research. In my case I do a lot of research and listening to make my own decisions and when I write I do not hide who I am and where I am located. You can come in my "joint" and hear what it is I do. If you like or dislike that I can not control. I d believe that I do my best to show products at there representative best for someone to hear. This is not perfect, not 100 percent, nor without flaw and some prejudice after all I am human and I do run a buiness. I do not summarily dismiss very serious items as junk because of things I do not understand nor know nothing about. I was invited to France for the unveiling of the new Focal line, i went through the factories, I learned what they were trying to do and I saw and heard the finished product. I spent my money to buy it and the other items to set up to make it play. I have discussed what I did and later on with a visit form Dominic Baker form Focal we did a litlle tweaking with his help to further improve the system. I have been told that the speakers sound amazing here by many listeners not just my friends or manufacturers. I am not saying that they are the end of the world or anything like that I am saying that they DO NOT SOUND as they have been described by a lone audiophile that acts as if he is an expert when in fact he admits to not even being up to date and admits that he can hear the stuff through JV's words. I guess audio channeling is new and I know nothing about it. I will say that these speakers are in the group of the finest that our industry has to offer. The listener is to choose his final preference. One size does not fit all and not one of them is LIVE music.
I refuse to sit on the sideline and let a one man survery disparage a wonderful product. The best is hard to determine since their are many excellent choices to day. I do not sell them all and not by a long shot have I heard them all and had the opportunity to lay my hands and ears on them as well. I would not however rip one based on a situation where I did not have some greater degree of control.
The room and set up is at least half the battle and without actually doing that in my environment means that I AM ONLY GUESSING.
Thanks and hope all is well with you,
Elliot
Halcro
The Grand Utopia III is the EM - no difference (someone correct me if i am wrong). I have heard the Utopia's several times now. I would say they are more sensitive to room set up than other speakers i have heard (actually hearing them in the same room pre and post the Focal guy doing the set up - which he does for all customers). It really made a huge difference. this could be seen as a good or a bad thing depending on how much flexibility your room has for speaker set up. But $180k woudl be a lot of money to spend if you don't have a room that works with them. I do agree with Halcro (or at least i think he is saying this) that Focal missed the price point on these. As great a speaker as they are they don't seem twice as good as M5 or 30% better than the Kharma Reference Signatures, etc. I know it cost a lot to make these speakers, but at the end of the day any business is about supply and demand, i think Focal is going to struggle at this price point.
BH
Elliot,
All is well on our front, thanks for the good will. If I where in the market for a speaker in the Focal Grande Utopia price range I would not listen to what one guy says on the internet. A $100K plus purchase I would not take lightely and I would listen to someone that has a pair in there own listening room. In no way do I feel that any one man can disparage the Focal speakers just because he had one bad experiance with them and wrote it on AVGuide.com.. Have to run but will write later,
Best Regards,
Cole Hatfield
Nawrocka Distribution
They are one and the same as you correctly pointed out. The EM is for Electro Magnet. I am nit sure I understand your point on room set up since if the other speakers you mentioned for some reason don't work in your room they have no ability to be dialed in other than moving them around. THe Grand is a precision instrument and can be set up to accomodate a series of room issues and tastes. I have no idea how they determine the price but I do know from viiewing the contstruction process and what the speaker can do it is expensive. The fact that you can adjust the spine of the speaker which is made of 68 pieces of mdf and takes 52 man hours to create not counting the drivers which are all made in house causes the expense. I am not trying to nor justifying the price since I don't have any idea of the costs but thier is a lot to it. The byer is the only one that determines it's value. I have no experience with the large Kharmas and I have only heard the M5 at a show. I have a very good room and the V.3 were rather easy to set up in my room. I do want to state that perhaps the versatility of the speaker adds to the cost but as a dealer this comes in handy in many far from perfect rooms. I wish all customers had easy perfect rooms but in fact they don't so help is always a good thing.
I agree with Elliot that the room and the setup make a HUGE difference. I have not heard the Focals in question, but I have heard the Magico Mini 2 in quite a few different settings: in my house (I've had them for a year now), at my dealer's, at another two dealer's (one in Singapore and one in Hong Kong), at CES. They have sounded lousy (one location), average (one location), superb (one location) and sublime (2 locations). Luckily, my first listen to them was at one of the better locations, which led to my eventual purchase after a home demo, but had I heard them at the lousy or average location first, then I might have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
I think we have to keep an open mind, and if a product is well-regarded by experienced reviewers and audiophiles, then one has to give that product the benefit of the doubt and try hear it in many settings before jumping to a conclusion.
I also do agree with the horses for courses comment and I do believe that our ears do not all hear int he same way. People have different sensitivities to various aspects of music reproduction, and what might be an acceptable compromise for one person may be unacceptable for someone else.
Hey Zeb,
As serious listeners we should realize that there is no one solution to fit everyone's taste, room and budget. I stated earlier that there are quite a few speakers I really enjoy and I am sure there are a lot more I would if I had the opportunity to play with them.In my career I have heard many times something that was far from wonderful at first blush and then later on after hearing it in my room, or in a store I worked in or at someone else's room the speaker in question turned out to be a horse of another color( following your lead LOL).
THis happened with Infinity IRS, Dahlquist DQ-10, Magnepan Tympani's, Genesis One, Magico V.3 and numerous others. I was only asking that the poster's and perhaps the readers do their homework before they speak with such conviction that something is bad and it is that product that is at fault.
I want to again state that without a good room and a professional set up ( meaning that someone actually knows what they are doing) most statements of sound quality are meaningless. If you hear a supposedly excellent product sound less that you expected it is a good idea to try and hear it in another local before condemnation takes place. The bigger the speaker the harder to set up is usually a rule to understand since they have a tendancy to excite the room more and usually will be able to produce sound over a wider frequency area and with more energy.
Having worked with many "big dogs" this has been my experience.
Hope things are well with you Zeb! See you at some show down the road?
E
I never thought much about others listening impression, so I would not bother you with mine. However, as someone with basic engineering skills, I can tell you that there is absolutely no way on earth to make a speaker like the EM work with so many different settings. Their driver configuration, can only work in a very specific XO alignment. Not to mention that by moving/tilting the cabinets, you completely change the relative alignment of the drivers causing a phase shift that will need new addressing in the XO. This is one of the better gimmicks I have seen lately. Adding insult to injury, I could not believe my eyes when I saw the photo of the EM XO. These must be the cheapest XO component available on the market. One thing that is lower than their cost is their sound quality. And to think Focal would want to show it?? So, like the sound or not, to me, the EM is one more exercise in hi-end gimmickry.
Eliott:
Thank for the reply. If I may, I would like to make a few follow-up comments.
First, is to re-iterate the incredible differences in taste. It is difficult to accept that something we cherish so highly, and which stands head-and-shoulders above the competiton, might be looked down upon by others, but such is the case, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise. And for the record, I am including only those who heard the system in a proper venue, properly set-up, etc. Let me give you an example: Coherence in speakers is of prime importance to me (along with dynamics). Most large muti-way speakers have, to my ear, poor coherence; as such, I rarely take a shine to them, even though many are considered to be amongst the "best in the world." That others don't hear this fatal flaw is as bewildering to me as my not going ga-ga over them most likely is to you.
Differences in hearing - - or more accurately, that to which we respond - - similarly fuels the vinyl/digital and tube/solid state debates.
I would be lying if I said that I don't try to educate others (read: make them see things my way :) ), but I know deep inside that in most cases, this is an exercise in futility.
The most difficult part for me is the fact that many of the people whose tastes are so different from my own, are people who I otherwise respect. For example, John Atkinson has forgotten more about audio than I will ever know, but while he raves about the Benchmark DAC (merely one example), I find it intensely irritating. Jonathan Valin - - whose knowledge similarly exceeds my own by leaps and bounds - - raved for years about the Kharma 3.2 monitor, which to me are polite, boring little speakers. These are but two examples, of many.
So who is deaf, Atkinson and Valin, or Borden? They might answer differently but I choose "(c) none of the above," preferring to think we simply hear differently.
As to the disparaging remarks made about on this forum about Focal speakers, I can understand how upsetting this is to you, especially as your livelihood depends on them. But however noble you believe your cause, it is sometimes worth remembering the proverb
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. ...
Regards,
Larry Borden
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Larry, I like your sense of humor and it sounds to me like me might like each other or at least enjoy discussing/argueing together sometime at a show. I am not defending the speakers because I sell them and I really don't expect anyone hear to believe that but I really don't care whether they do or don't. I have a lot of time invested in this business/hobby etc. and I have played with many speakers in my lifetime both as a hobbiest and as a dealer. I have owned many large speaker systems and I know how much work they are to get them sound right. They are hard to get to disappear, they are hard to get them to produce a wall to wall sound stage and extend outside the confines of the large thing that takes up most of your room and sometimes you ca'nt get them to do that however sometimes you can. The Focal is one that does all of the things you sa you like and that still does not mean that it is for you, I understand that. I just think that you have not heard what I have and that perhaps you might consider that you may not have heard it as intended as well. I agree on th Kharma's they did nothing for me, however I like the Magico, CLX that JV has reviewed, I have not heard the MBL ever sound good but that does not mean it can't. MY point is that sometimes shows, dealers showrooms and even customers homes don't sound good and it is not always the gear.
I am not accusing anyone of being deaf I am just trying to make people who make comments that IMHO are off the hook think about them. There was a comment about cheap XO parts from looking at a picture, this is kind of what I see. I read a book last night called "Brain surgery for Dimmies." and I think I am now perfectly qualified to remove his tumor! :)
Be well and enjoy your music for that is what it is all about and in some ways we have taken giant steps foward and in others we have not moved an inch!
"There was a comment about cheap XO parts from looking at a picture"
Elliot,
Just because you can’t tell the difference from a photo, does not mean others can’t. As usual, you are flying by the seat of your pants. The only thing you can talk about is your impression of sound. Especially of things that you sell. How convenient. Your understanding of the simple basic engineering elements behind these things is negligible. You demonstrated it repeatedly in your various posts. It is hard, for someone who is willing to rationally look at your comments, to take you seriously. BTW, I did hear the EM. Twice. My impression of the sound was closer to the Halcro guy than to yours. But who cares. I am telling you that from an objective point of view, these are a gimmick. If you like to buy a pair, be my guess, but that will not change the price (Or the sound) of the cheap wire-wound or ferrite coils you have in the XO.
The fact that you and Halcro agree makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over!
I was unaware that your education and engineering credentials are far superior to the entire engineering team at Focal and every other company that you like to dump on. I find your one man survey's very enlightening. Please foward your engineering resume I will gladly foward it to Gerard and Jacque so they may be able to learn from you. By the way can you fix what's wrong with my race car I will send you a picture of that as well, my watch isn't keeping perfect time can I ask your help wth that please? I am sure Patek would like to hear from you!
"Elliot,
Just because you can’t tell the difference from a photo, does not mean others can’t. As usual, you are flying by the seat of your pants. The only thing you can talk about is your impression of sound. Especially of things that you sell. How convenient. Your understanding of the simple basic engineering elements behind these things is negligible. You demonstrated it repeatedly in your various posts. It is hard, for someone who is willing to rationally look at your comments, to take you seriously. BTW, I did hear the EM. Twice. My impression of the sound was closer to the Halcro guy than to yours. But who cares. I am telling you that from an objective point of view, these are a gimmick. If you like to buy a pair, be my guess, but that will not change the price (Or the sound) of the cheap wire-wound or ferrite coils you have in the XO."
There are plenty of cheap flights to Fort Lauderdale, so who not fly in and give these speakers a listen? You'll find Elliot to be accomodating, with a short sales pitch. Having heard these speakers with the Krell Evolution2/900 and the dCS front end, I found the EM's to sound as Elliot describes them and in no way do they sound as you and Halcro describe.
PS: I'll never afford these speakers, but know damn well what I hear.
Elliot,
More rhetoric… Is that the best you can do? I have not read one line from you that has any objective merit to it. Heck you couldn’t even explain what the EM is all about. I am sure that you are a good salesman, but that is all you are, in the context of this discussion. Try to remember that.
Roy, You seem to want to fight, I don't. You don't like what I have to say and the feeling is mutual. It seems you only want to be destructive and negative and that is of course your choice and your right. I try to give my point of view and you don't agree and that again is fine but watch where you go with it sir, you do not know me or anything about me and I take offense to the comments about me personally. I have been around this the industry for a long time and I don't hide behind some internet personality and claim to be the world's enginerring critic. You are one arrogant individual for that you are world class!
Roy Pan- ignored..!
Elliot,
Your short attention span had caused you to already forget who started the personal attacks (Do you still want me to fix your car?). You are right, I do not know you personally, but rest assure, based on your conduct here, I consider it a plus.
Elliot, I must say, Roy may be a bit rough around the edges but you have been using this forum to, shamelessly, promote yourself. I do not mind it much but you have been reacting quite aggressively against anyone who dispute your views or question your agenda. Not cool, sir.
Elliott:
I'll be in Ft. Lauderdale the 3rd or 4th week of April, visiting my elderly father. I'd be delighted to drop by your store to meet you, and to listen to some music together.
Larry Borden
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Perhaps Roy you should read what I wrote and what YOUR response was. I made no personal attack Sir.
Walter I am not sure what my agenda is here. I make no money from this and to whom am I promoting anything, none of you are my clients and none of my clients read this. I am however sorry if I offended you and I will drop this discussion with Mr. Pan since I am bored with this already. I did not realize that I can not speak my mind as the rest of you do. I am a dealer and it says that clearly. I don't hide behind a screen name so if you don't care for what I say it is certainly your ability to disagree or ignore just as I can with you. I made no personal attack on Mr. Pan and he did try to disparage me and that Sir I will not ignore. Thanks.
Larry you are certainly welcome to come on by and enjoy sunny Florida it is already starting to get hot. I played golf yesterday and it was in the high 80's.
Elliot,
Will you be attending RMAF this year?
Thanks,
Cole Hatfield
"Elliott:
I'll be in Ft. Lauderdale the 3rd or 4th week of April, visiting my elderly father. I'd be delighted to drop by your store to meet you, and to listen to some music together.
Larry Borden"
You won't be disappointed!
My purpose is to get to know Elliott, and in that regard I undoubtedly will not be disappointed. In terms of the speakers, past experiences suggest they will not be to my taste but quite frankly, that is of no consequence; we will have fun talking and enjoying some music.
Larry
"Digital finishes what the transistor began" James Boyk
Roy Gregory's review f the speaker is available on HiFi + site.
He talks about the differences the set up makes as well. I believe they are running it in the new TAS coming as well.
Have a nice weekend!
Hey Mark,
I have made some major improvements in the system and if you can I think you should come hear it now!
"Hey Mark,
I have made some major improvements in the system and if you can I think you should come hear it now!"
Lemme give DC a call and see if he wants to drive up on Saturday.
Mark
PS: I'll call if we're heading your way.
Elliot:
DC & I ill be up tomorrow, Saturday.
Mark
Elliot,
I do really know what those guys said about.The true is "none" of all systems scattered around the world,ever can sounded close to the real thing.The "GREAT" YG Anat II don't even pleased me as my old B&W 801 ever do.But in my own opinion,rather than trying to sound like the real thing,great system must create a "heaven" in the listening room,this can be accomplished if the system can sounded by it's very own way.And i do know that the inverted dome sometimes sounded spitting and hard to focused,way very different than any normal silk dome tweeter.And the W cone may sounded not right to paper cone listeners.But still i do rescpect the Focal GU BE EM as the top two world best loudspeakers ever made.And i don't need to think twice to buy this speakers after my room preparations finished.Let's just sit down together,listen to some music by different style recording companies.I'm pretty sure the GU BE EM can tell you some hidden details that you don't ever heard before,of course by Focals very own way:)
Dear Andre,
I would be happy to play them for you if you are in my neighborhood.
Thanks,
E
Just a brief note to say that I found myself in Ft. Lauderdale recently on business and stopped by Elliot's FRC shop to hear the Grand Utopia EMs. What a wonderful experience. Elliot obviously spent a long time tuning the system to extract the most out of these speakers and the results were superb. What did it sound like? The answer is that it sounded like music! Forget the nit-picking. Here is a dedicated and knowledgable dealer who worked damn hard to set up a room that does his vendors justice. And of course, as you may gather from his posts, Elliot is a hoot and is not exactly shy about sharing his thoughts to those who find their way to his shop. Honestly, it was one of the best sounds at a retail audio showroom that I've ever heard. And it was great fun as well. Thanks Elliot.
Dear Ugamotz,
Thank you for the kind note and it was listening with you. I am glad that you enjoyed the system. It has been a lobor of love to get it where it is today,
Good listening,
E
I see it is hot discusion boiling here. I will not go for subjective evaluation of theese speakers, since no of JmLab folks replied here here we go-
1) Grande EM is designed to work in big spaces where most speakers sound lean in lower midrange higher bass. forcing play them in enviroment where 100-400hz is boosted sound will be tragic.
2) Grande EM tonality is designed in spirit of JmLab. they are lush and warm sounding even in most leanest room with most leanest configuration of xover tuning.
3) for that reason they sacrife 2-4db eficienty (technicaly grande EM easily could be done 97db/2.83v/m)
4) also they sound quite closed in midrange ,but as a bonus never harsh or agresively forward . you will loose imediacy and livenes on vocals ,opera s forward. but ears will not bleed on rock and other bad materials. its midrange definately not for lowther lovers.
5) I heard most of the expensive speakers in the market in my setup,not at dealer, i also had courage to dismount speakers to test raw drivers. grande EM midbass and bass drivers and especialy tweeter is absolute reference standart dynamic drivers . midrange drivers is nice to average.
6) Grande EM Xover Topology is traditionaly text book example. some other manufacturers using exotic ,unusual and revoliutonary xovers implementation.
7) Grande EM xover parts is enought good quality. better than 60% competitors. not the same league as Peak Consult for example but good enought. Jm Lab is technical company ( no exotic component will help if driver have -40db 2nd disc. levels)
8) Enclosure materials are clasic (low rigidity and high damp) MDF materials. thats adds extra BOXY and not clean transparent sound to overal lower midrange tonality
for the reasons 2/3/4 and ESPECIALY 6 most people can/will not like them.
SIr, I realize that English is not your primary language and I was wondering where you are from? Did you purchase a pair of EM's? What equipment were you using them with and who did the set up?
This would help inunderstanding your comments,
Thanks
I would rather stay anonymous. I seted them by myself objectively(by microphone) and subjectively (by ear). Room is 65sq.meters quite heavily damped. . I use two amps in setup- pass xa 200.5, and sometimes Ayre mx-r both with music first passive silver wired transformer atenuator as a preamp for pure short path. I specialy didnt writed anything subjectively about EM sound , just simple things/facts which can let people undertstand what is Grande EM and what they can expect from them.
SIr,
You purchased these speakers and have them in your home?
Hello again, Yes, they are in my home.
I dont know the policies of the distributor where you live however in the US a factory trained representative goes on every installation of the speakers. I would suggest to you that you have someone come to your home and if you can get someone from Focal and you might be surprised what will happen to the sound. I am not suggesting that you don't know what you are doing only that an expert will be able to make your system sound better. These speakers have a lot of adjustments and I have learned a ot about them from listening, playing and from the Focal folks. See if you can arrange for Dominic Baker to come, ask and you may get him. I am not aware of where you are but I might even be able to help you get someone,
Enjoy
Eliot I didnt understand- neither i blamed EM for sone sound or give high performance star, i do not understand why you think that speakers sounds bad/ good and that my setup need to be readjusted. I have master degree of physic enginier and have quite precise software to measure Frequency response,acoustical and electrical phase behaviuor, impedance, any type of discortions, room modes and so on. . I have talked to local trained dealers and they ask me to setup their speakers and design rooms. The room where is speakers is dedicated listening room pyramyde shaped, with equaly 33/33/33/ reflectors ,absorbers and spliters.
I didnt said a word about performance just general quidelines, but if you want some subejctive opinion of Grande EM- I may say its the best technical traditional dynamic speakers (in the bass and hights especialy) - I have never heard any similar sized and similar drivers size equiped speakers which sound so good with electronic music. Best. Period. speed, transparency, big scale, everything -just name it.
As for acoustical recordings- operas, wind bands ans so on ( 3d soundstage, presence of performance) some speakers does better job.
Well maybe I did not either. It sounded to me in your initial descriotion that you wer e unhappy with the sound and that people listening to them would NOT like them. I will go back and re read what you said. I also have test gear and have used measurements to learn my new room at my new store but having said that I did learn a lot from Dominic on hos visist hear and my visit in St. Etiienne.
I was only suggesting that if you could get him there he might be able to show you some interesting things and perhaps improve your sound.
If I mis understood you statements then I am sorry but you did say becausee of three reasons poeple WILL NOT like them. That was where I got confused
Anyway enjoy and good listening,
Elliot
I had read that some people didnt liked tham and explained posibilities why they didnt liked. I could write 10 reasons why people can be amazed and adore them also. just there is no only black and white everything in the world. Yes I am enjoying them , I also wait to hear new Stella EM at dealer which are suitable for smaller rooms. I think it will not be worse speaker than EM. we will see.
By the way EM need quite a break period to sound the best(arround 5x 3 hours on variable generator tone 20-80hz,or VERY long time playing music) and if you carry Diablo this is even more dependable, i listened to it straigt out the box and it sounded very bloomy and hard comparing to pair which was broken in already.
THe new Maestro was just introduced however I am not sure when they will be shipping. I have diablo and EM and break in period is at least 500 hours of music and perhaps longer.
I would think the smaller EM model will be this fall.
I have tried many combinations on the speaker and have had very excellent results. What country do you live in?
Diablo break up is more important than EM from what I have heard and measured. We can see if we hearing the same- the diablo best strenght to me in with string instruments.its very good with this king of music, its quite lively and litle bit on bright side, midrange is smooth all the way except bigger chorus where Diablo fails, overal Diablo is also on the warm side, liquid sounding.
if you want i can chare some information about setup arangement and litle bit more. you can left email and we will discuss further out of forum.
Your description is good they are small speakers and of course will fail in really large pieces and on really low passages. It is very rich sounding and when playing the sort of music onemight on a small monitor like human voice, guitars and strings they are really a good speaker.
They have satisfying bass but not really deep of course and one might say they are brighter sounding than the Grand.
The set up controls are for room and seating arrangement. The curvatureof the spine of the speaker is really an interesting thing and with the proper source material you can really dial that in unlike any other speaker I have ever worked with
Try this _ if you can finda copy of the set up and break in disc with Keith Johnson ( RR/Spectral) and the cut is called Dr. Johnson goes spacial.
In it he talks into a microphone and them moves to the left and to the right. You can adjust the speaker so that his voice is at the exact same height all the way accross. In other speakers I have used as they approach far right or left the voice goes directly to the height of the tweeter which usually means it goes down. With the Grand you can get focus precise. The other controls are for room and speaker correction and I have played with them a lot. It also can be used toi dial in the system with different gear so I dont know that we will be able to do this since we have different rooms and equi[pment. I have changed mine from when I was using Krell EVO 2 and 900 and now have Bryston 28SST and ARC REF 3 and I am still not 100 percent happy with it as of today. I just put that gear in a week ago,
I had the settings for the krell with the extreme bass up a click and the second tweeter settting down a click with the Krell in my room. I hope that helps
Sounds like DC and I need to pay you a visit. Right now, DC is out of town. We'll be in contact.
Mark