Entry Level Integrated for NHT Classic 3s
radiomir -- Tue, 02/09/2010 - 18:18
The short story:
I'm looking for an integrated in the upper entry level ($1000-2000 ...$2700 if it includes phono stage) range that will for the time being be used with NHT Classic 3s. I am currently using a Pioneer AVR, which is fine for HT, but isn't cutting it for music.
The long story:
I plan to upgrade loudspeakers when I move into a bigger living space next September (after I graduate from law school, take the bar, and finally have some money), but I am currently undecided as to whether I will just get new amplification at the time and use the NHTs plus whatever I get now in a different room or get rid of the NHTs.
Anyway, I listen to about 70% LP and 30% iphone/Wadia transport/ Cambridge DAC magic combo (I had all of my CDs stolen last year out of my car while I was moving!) I listen to a wide variety of music, from Animal Collective to Chopin, from Sleater Kinney to Bill Monroe. I am upgrading my TT this week either to a VPI Aeries Scout, Pro-Ject RM9.1, or or Rega P5 (depending on the outcome of some listening).
I've been looking at several of the TAS recommended units, such as the Goldnote S-1 Sig, Moon i-1, Naim Nait 5i, Vincent -236 MKii, and Cambridge 840 AV2. I've also considered the Rega Mira 3, Creek Evolution 5350, and Creek Destiny. I live in Minneapolis, MN so I have access to the Needle Doctor and another store, HiFi Sound, but because the former is mostly mailorder and the latter has limited stock, it is difficult for me to try anything out.
I use the NHTs for HT also, but I'm not too concerned about having an HT bypass because I will either switch out the speaker cables manually or get something like the Sonance AS2 switcher (unless this is bad?).
Finally, if you have any phono stage/ cartridge recommendations to go with the amp/speakers, I welcome those as well.
Anyway, this is my first post. Hopefully soon I will begin to have the equipment and experience to start contributing, but for now, thanks for your help.
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Congrats on law school and good luck with the bar (unless you sue me at some point). Living in a smaller place in Chicago, there is nothing wrong with the Classic 3 at all. TAS put it on the cover asking if it was the best 1k speaker available. Steroephile also gave a strong review. I use it now with a Joilda 100 wpc integrated and have loaned the speakers out to a friend auditioning monitors with various mid-powered integrated amps up to 150 wpc, using the VPI Scout and Sumiko cartridge rig. The speakers love being bossed around. Being sealed enclosure, they will not produce exaggerated/bloated bass. If you need anything useful below 45 hz, get a good used/easily adjustable sub. The Classic 3 work best with 100w and up amps that are a little warmer in sound, IMO. You mentioned several good candidates for amps above but also take a look at Belles, ARC,Rogue and others to fit your preference...
Those amplifiers you are considering have a wide range of output powers. I don't recall the sensitivity of the NHT Classic 3. That shuold be a contributing factor to your decision.
Thanks for the responses. I believe sensitivity is only 86 db. Some of the amps I listed, like the moon i-1, at only 50 watts at 8 ohms would appear underpowered, but because the power doubles at 4 ohms and WG at TAS found it to act much beefier than 50 watts, I wasn't sure if I should still consider it. Perhaps I shouldn't? I'm no sure if it matters, but I tend to listen at moderate levels because I already, at 26, have a bit of high frequency hearing loss and a percussive effect in my left ear that can make music abrasive.
On a side note, I've been reading your complete guide to high-end audio, Mr. Harley, and it's fantastic.
Thank you for your comment on The Complete Guide to High-End Audio. —Robert
So, after doing some more research, it looks like the NHT Classic 3s do like considerable power. Would this be the case even at moderate listening levels? If so, probably the Moon i-1, Goldnote S1, and Naim Nait 5i are out. If they would be ok, I could use one of those as a pre-amp later if I need more power. Otherwise, I'm still looking at the Cambridge 840 AV 2 (120W), Vincent 236MkII (150W), and Creek 5350 (120 W) from my list. I don't think I can afford stepping up in Moon's line or getting anything from ARC. The Rogue Tempest II is probably also out of my price range. I can't find much about Belles. What do you think? I should have realized when I bought the NHTs for their value, I would have to spend much more on amplification. Does anyone have any actual experience with the 3s and any of these or other amps? Maybe it would ultimately be best to trade in the 3s now, putting the money saved on amplification for an upgrade in speakers.
Ok, so I amnow considering the following: First, because of Simaudio's trade-up program, I could go with the i-1 for now and upgrade later. Second, I could still go with the Vincent or the Cambridge. Finally, I could go with a used Bryston B100, Moon 5.3, or Bel Canto s300iU. Any thoughts?
The Krell S300i, at $2500, though it is line-level only, would certainly drive your speakers to any level you like. I don't do vinyl, but one of my colleagues swears by the NAD phono amp ($129.00 at Audio Advisor), which apparently also scared the hell out of Michael Fremer with of its most bountiful bang for the buck ratio. Total cost with tax and such would exceed your $2700 limit, but not by much; and it's hard to imagine ever needing another integrated amp, assuming that the sound of Krell appeals to you.
Jim, thanks for the recommendation. I did find a local Krell dealer, but couldn't listen to the S300i because he works by appointment only from his residence. However, I did find a dealer that had some NHT 3s and I spent the afternoon trying many different amps, including some out of my price range just to get an idea. I tried the Bel Canto integrated with USB DAC, the Bryston B100, a McIntosh 6200, an Audio Research VSi60, and finally the PrimaLuna Dialogue 2. The Bryston, McIntosh, and Audio Research were all very different animals, each with attributes I really loved, but I think my favorite was the Audio Research. Learning that I favored the tube sound, I then tried the PrimaLuna. At only 38 watts in ultralinear mode, I wasn't expecting it to do well with the NHTs, but I was pleasantly suprised. Actually, I was flat out impressed, so much so that I called him later in the day and put in an order. But I must admit that one day later, the power rating is giving me pause. Should I trust my ears and get what sounds good or will I notice some severe limitations over time? Is it silly that I am even considering it? I would have liked to try the 150 Watt Vincent 236 that is $1000 less than the PrimaLuna, but there are no local dealers. I suppose I could get it from AudioAdvisor and send it back if I don't like it, but I was so impressed with my local dealer's willingness to swap amps and speakers all over the place, as well as his knowledge, that I'd like to buy from him. So, what do you think? Should I ignore the power rating and get an amp that I think sounds good with my speakers and will likely sound even better when I upgrade? Or should I keep searching?
I'm sorry radiomir, but since Robert Harley did not break it to you, I probably should. By your concerns and questions, you show strong evidence of being a true audiophile, which means you are cursed to never be entirely content with your audio system. There are many worse ways to demolish the family treasury, but doomed you likely are. Take heart in knowing that our numbers, while not legion, are such that you should never feel entirely alone in your misery. And while the music plays and your heart sings, you won't really care, anyway.
Your first post notes that you expect a change of residence and thus listening room in September or thereabouts. If you really need new amplification now, I would err toward the less expensive options thinking that "good enough" is fine for a few months. Conserve financial resources and plan to make a simultaneous purchase of amplification and new speakers once you are settled and know what your listening room is. The interaction of room and speakers is just so important, and then match the amplification to maximize musicality (as you define it) in that environment.
In your previous post you note that you ordered the PrimaLuna, so my preceding paragraph may be superfluous. I've not heard that amp, but I gather from reviews that PrimaLuna builds gear with quite capable power supplies and output stages. As long as your present listening room is small to medium and your sense of necessary loudness does not extend to headbanging, I imagine you will be fine. For now, I would recommend that you rest easy and explore the performance of the PrimaLuna. Maybe it will prove good enough for your tastes that it will also prove worthy for your next home as well. In any event, relax and enjoy the adventure. And best wishes as you prepare to graduate and sit for the bar exam.
I appreciate your response. You are probably right about never being satisfied, but I'm going to try my best to forget about other options after I complete my set up for at least awhile. Because I really wanted to be able to hear before I buy, I decided to stick with the PrimaLuna. I loved the sound and really like the autobiasing so I don't have to mess with it. I also went ahead and added the $200 MM phono upgrade, which will save me money on an interconnect and phono pre for the time being. The amp should be in later this week. My current listening room is only about 1650 cubic feet (although it does open up to another room which is itself about 1300 cubic feet) and I listen at low volumes so I think I should be fine for the time being. If it turns out to be underpowered when I move, I will just have to move it to my bedroom or office.
Anyway, thanks to all who helped. Now its off to the turntable section to try and decide between a Scout, Pro-Ject 9, and the new Clearaudio Emotion SE.
I have nht 3s and run a onkyo a-9555 integrated amp. There is a review in stereophile,this amp has a fairly good phono section and 100 wpc.