Does a 20 amp wiring provide significant (audible) improvements over 15 amp wiring.
gb -- Tue, 01/18/2011 - 11:05
Most of the outlets in my music room , though dedicated, are 15 amp outlets. I just called the electrician to re-wire them to be 20 amp outlets.
May I ask, for those who've done this, if there is an audible improvement, especially if you have current hungry amps drawing power from, say, a Quantum Q-base outlet (or any outlet for that matter)? And what are the dangers (if any) of having 20 amp outlets? I remember, when originally asking for them, the electrician mentioned something 'bout the danger of fire, but I was unclear on that concept and it was many years ago.
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When I finished my basement I ran 20 amps for the two locations to be used for the stereo system with upgraded outlets. In using the 15 amp outlets I can not say I hear a difference. I must admit I have always felt that if the designer of the gear did not call for a 20 amp line then one would be fine without it. As it was no real cost difference in my case, I said why not. Having a dedicated line, is I feel of more importance. Then you lessen the risk of interference from other devices in the home. But as they say, you don't have any problems with a big engine pulling a small car. Over all it is cheap insurance for the chance they it will make a audible improvement.
I like to run two independent lines to my listening room. One for digital and the other for analog. You can buy all sorts of dear, specialist electric cable if you like. I have found the best, most cost effective way to go is to get the thickest "normal" cable your electrician is happy to use. I think the thicker you go, the higher the amp rating..By all means get audio type duplexes if you like. I use a PS Audio Power Port Premier and one I got from Jim at Sound Applications. Not sure if I could tell the difference in a blind test but they do the job just fine.
I have done this three times and on each occaision it took a couple of months for the lines to break in and sound their best. Strange but true!
Overall, a necessary and rather cheap upgrade. It is one of the first things I do when I move house.
Thanks, guys. And of the TAS staff care to comment?
I put in two dedicated 20 amp circuits for my amps/system. HUGE improvement. More than what I guessed. With no other house circuits to share with the sound was more delicate, detailed and robust. Soundstaging was better too. If you need to upgrade a dedicated (or many) 20 amp circuits will do far more than any power cable/ interconnect/wire will ever do. And it is not that costly, depending on how far your electrical panel is. Just make sure you get a licensed electrican.
Blackfly, thank you.
What I'm asking, though, is whether or not there is a discernible difference between dedicated 15 amp circuits and dedicated 20 amps circuits. I have always had dedicated 15 amp outlets, but wondered if there was any reason to upgrade to a 20 amp circuit. I have also tried out many outlets as well: PS Audio, FIM (regular and Gold), Synergistic Research Tesla and Oyaides. I'm going to see if there is an audible difference after having one 20 amp circuit done. If so, I'll call the electrician back to convert the other dedicated circuits to 20 amps.
By the way, you guys might try turning your microwave off while listening to music. Dedicated circuits or not, it makes a very noticeable difference in the high frequencies.
brion: I cannot say for sure the difference if BOTH were dedicated, but the theory is: when an amp needs that extra power it is there, and it is not starved on high demand peaks. My Bryston works better on the 20 amp circuit simply because it shares nothing else with the line. where in the past it was on a 15 amp line that was being shared by other things, so the draw was such that the amp could of not received its total need.
I watched the electrician do the work, and being a friend of mine, I was able to glean what he did. When I asked about special outlets for audio/better quality wire behind the wall for audio the only thing he stated that made a difference was ensuring the wire was rated for the amperage. That's it.
But he is no audiophile either but it is not a common debate among electricians, however.
I have found most people, including every electrician I have known, think I am a nut for believing this upgrade makes a difference. My advice to the sceptics is to let your ears be the judge. I am not spending their money so I cant understand why some people in other threads on this forum get upset that I ,and others, can appreciate the difference.
My advice to brion is that if you are going to do it, go the whole hog. In for a penny, in for a pound, so to speak.
I was not making a judgement about the electrician in the sense they cannot see the value of having larger draw circuits. Getting more current to electronics that might need it is obvious.
But spending on outlets, receptacles etc is almost comical when I was watching the electrician do the work and asked him about such things making a difference or there being any consensus in the electrical field for such things. He used plain copper wire behind the drywall (rated for the amperage of course) but was it "audiophile wire"? No. So it makes me wonder myself about power cables/conditioners when the amount of thought given to the audio side of things on the wiring behind the drywall is virtually zero and how it can be such a huge difference on the other side of the wall.
Any way to get us, I suppose. But it does not waver my belief cables do matter to an extent as I have proven this to myself recently. I won't defend the "way out in left field" cables at equal pricing but the good quality ones that are actually affordable can (and in my system,do) make a difference.
I just added two 20 amp lines with Furutech GTX outlets and it made an audible improvement. I used solid core, 10 gauge wire. I was using 15 amp, common sockets before the change. The results will probably depend on your system. I am using Pass monoblocks, MIT cables and interconnects, and PS audio power conditioners and power cords. I added these items at different times and have heard an improvement with each upgrade. My attitude is go for it. Even if you do not hear a major difference, you are probably increasing the life of your electronics. I have heard that too little power is hard on equipment. Hope this helps.
I agree there is something about not starving gear of power when it really needs it.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
As I mentioned in passing, I'm going to have the outlets upgraded simply as an experiment. I frequently "try things out" to see if they make a difference, just as I did many years ago when the late Enid Lumley , of TAS, recommended lifting the cables off the floor in one issue. Thought I, "Why not? Empirical evidence in the best." So I did -- and lo and behold -- it made a noticeable difference, especially in the lessening of background noise and less grain in the highs. And it cost me nothing! At that time, nobody had devices for lifting cables off the floor. What was interesting was that even designers and some pretty famous reviewers of TAS didn't know about that before then -- and Enid WROTE FOR THEM. Let me tell a tale.
Back in 1994, I was in the company of Dick Brown (Bel amps), Tom Miiller, one of TAS' famous writers, Sallie Reynolds (TAS' managing editor) and Larry Kay (the former publisher of Fi. We were listening to the Bel amps, Grand Slamms, a Rockport turntable with a Van den Hul cartridge, Transparent Reference speaker cable (can't remember the interconnects) and a Jadis JP-80 preamp. We listened to an Elvis Presley cut, and I noticed a glare in the upper midrange, and looked down at the cables, one of which was sitting directly on top of a power cord. When the cut was over, I politely asked if I could elevate the cable so it wasn't touching the power cord, and if anyone would mind if we played the cut again. I was indulged (I have NO idea what was going thru their minds, but I KNEW what would happen) and then we played it again. Glare? Gone. Sallie Reynolds was the very first person to say, "What did you do?!?!" And I just said, I moved the cable off the floor (I used a book) and off the power cord. Tom Miiller looked at me and (playfully) snarked, "Smartass." I laughed and said, Tom, I didn't discover this: Enid Lumley did -- and wrote about it in TAS. Dick Brown's eyebrow's raised, but he said nothing. Everyone else just laughed in wonderment at the clear difference (well, with Grand Slamms, what else would one expect???? Higher resolution speakers reveal the differences faster than lower resolution speakers, where you have to do it two or three times to hear the difference!) Now we have a small industry revolving around removing cables from the floor, carpet or whatever. Even Nordost speaker cable sound better elevated - and I've had Quattro Fils, Valkryja, Valhalla, Frey, Tyr, Alpha Core Goertz, LOTS of MIT (up until around 1996 vintage), Shunyata, Discovery, Siltech. It ALL sounds better not touching each other and crossed at 90 degree angles when they're in proximity. In having written for several mags, I learned.
The lesson? Try everything out and trust your ears. If you have to strain to hear the difference, either your speakers are not set up right, or they're not high enough resolution to easily hear the difference or both. But you can still hear the difference -- it just takes longer. I learned by listening and rejecting nothing until I had tried it for myself. And that's how I intend to proceed here!
You would not be the first to recommend elevating cables and having 90 degree crossovers. Sadly, I, like many, could not possibly accomidate this. In a simplistic system; preamp, source, power amp, it might work. But with more involved systems cables, power cords etc all add up. I look behind my system right now and given your story brion I am amazed I get the sound I do, but I choose decent stuff for my system. I have only so much space for power cords cables.....
Your advice to try it yourself is totally true. I am now EQ free (except in the bass) and would not of done so without experimentation. But realizing limitations is one of audio's noble truths.
But keeping interconnects short only works when you KNOW there is going to be no change to the system. I have no idea if my system is mature, done or still growing. And I am not rich either, so I have to think "what if" and get interconnects that are 50% off even if they are too long. I cannot spend $500 on a digital cable when the same cable could of been shorter and I simply cannot buy another.
But then again I wonder why I still buy lottery tickets.
I have enjoyed this thread detailing the attempt to improve the sound of the components you already own rather than just trying replace them with "better" ones. In my opinion, which I think is shared by quite a few others, you should start by giving your components their own dedicated lines. I have, including speakers about 24 components that require a power outlet. My room is fitted with 4 dedicated lines so that power amps and other power hungry devices do not have to share. This also ensures that noisy appliances like refrigerators (we have 3), AC units, washer/dryers are not getting into the act with my sound system. The next step depends on how reliable and consistent the delivery of power is to your house. I have measured voltage swings of as much as 5 to 7 which would make a difference with some components, particularly amps. So I have resorted to power line conditioners that keep the voltage consistent and protect against surges. I have replaced my standard wall outlets with decent (not hideously expensive) outlets just because they are better built, have better wire, and less likely to corrode.
Now here is where, the sleeves start to roll up, and voices get heated: Power cords. Do they matter? I think that they do, based on extensive auditions with different cords at different price points. Certainly, even a relatively inexpensive after-market cord will be better constructed than most black throw-aways that come in the component box. The more revealing your system, the more differences you will hear among power cords. But different is not necessarily better so it is important to decide on a cord that adds or subtracts the least from your equipment. It takes a long time to go through this sifting and sorting process which is why you should have the opportunity to audition cords side-by-side if possible. Certain vendors like The Cable Company will let you sample cords at the cost of return shipping when you are done. Probably the best way to go, using your own ears. Reviews of cords are difficult to interpret unless you have similar equipment to the reviewer, which is seldom if ever the case.
Finally, get the cords and cables off the ground. I have done this largely so I or my dog don't repeatedly step on them and accidentally disconnect them. Do elevators really make a difference in sound. Not much, at least in my experience. Again, I am skeptical of the sonic "epiphanies" that get published when a cord or cable is 3" higher than it was before. Unless there are insulation issues with these devices, and there shouldn't be, I don't know that there is plausible reason for this maneuver to make a difference.
I would, from time to time and only during colder months, get a hideous buzzing from my speakers, like the buzzers from those old game shows. I manipulated my speaker cables so they were off the carpet and the buzz hasn't returned. So if you have carpet, especially with artificial fibers, it may be a good idea. I don't know if the drier air of winter had anything to do with this (I suspect so, though). There was no recognizable sonic improvement.
Dedicated lines can make sense, also. In their absence, perhaps going for a conditioner with a good current reserve can help.
The only reason I get my back up a bit about power cords is this reason: I bought a new Bryston 14B SST 2 years ago, and I am to think that Bryston is stupid enough to make such an amp and then supply an insufficient power cord? Or what about any other manufacturer for that matter? My Luxman M 05 amp from 1985 has dual power cords and no, they are not as thick as a firehose. I just don't understand how a company can make such a good piece of gear and then spec a poor cord expecting the aftermarket to fill in.
I could understand if power cords were NOT supplied with the gear, like interconnects, and you then had to supply your own. PERHAPS.
I always thought that hi-end type components only have a cheap power cord to get you by. The manufacturer knows that most times the buyer will be using an aftermarket chord. Otherwise they may design a component with a captive type chord. Just a thought.
What then of the reviewer who reviews the piece with the stock cord, only trying different ones in order to critique the cord itself?
Like I said, I fail to see a company making an amp, preamp, or whatever with a "just good enough" cord or one "to just get you buy". Unless I am naive I would of thought the item would be 100% right out of the box, stock. Is not aftermarket supposed to "tweak"?
Ldevoe:
If you're not hearing the difference with the cords off the floof, that's surprising to me. The region one hears it most is 4-6k. It should be apparent if the cables are ALL off the floor, as well as the cables being dressed.
However, that was not the main subject of my post, so I'd like to direct it back to what I asked about:, which you addressed, and thank you for that. I have found that if the voltage on a CD player varies by more than a volt or two, the difference in sound is noticeable, and I no longer use anything that could be considered state-of-the-art componentry. So, your comment confirms my theory that the voltage affects the quietness of the background (that "black background" that everyone speaks of, which is merely an absence of noise).
As it turns out, the electrician came over and looked at the cable hooked up under the floor to the outlets he'd installed in 2003 and informed me 3 of the four outlets were 20 amps already. Good to know...
This past year, I had my electician replace the standard Romex wire in my listening room's five dedicated 20 amp lines with Transparent Audio's new MM2 Reference power cable. The stuff is expensive at $100 a foot. (It is also amazing sounding!) These lines then go to a dedicated sub panel with a separate dedicated "earth" ground (six foot copper rod buried six feet underground). The improvement was not subtle. I heard greater quiet, more detail, and extension of the frequency extremes. These were the type of improvements that are typical when for example swapping out a mid range preamp and replacing it with a world class reference grade preamp. Please understand that this is in the context of a reference caliber audio system that is housed in a dedicated acoustically treated purpose built sound room. The cost, while expensive on an absolute basis, was "chump change" relative to the cost rest of the system and room. In the context of my system in my listening room it was one of those improvements that was extremly high in the improvement in sound for the dollar spent quotient.
I was so impressed with the electric wire upgrade that later this week I am having my electrician run two more dedicated 20 amp lines of Transparent's mid line power cable for a secondary "real world" system that I am currently assembling in my basement workshop area.
By the way, as my wife correctly pointed out - audio components may come and go, but the wiring, well...that is basic that is constant and will more than likely be enjoyed in our listening room our live long days, and in that context makes it even more of a bargain!
coopersark
"These lines then go to a dedicated sub panel with a separate dedicated "earth" ground (six foot copper rod buried six feet underground). The improvement was not subtle" Coopersark.
Yes, I did the same and heard a very subtle improvement but along with it came a hum loop that took the electrician ages to get rid of.
In my experience, electricians don't really get the concept of isolated grounds. Or perhaps they were just working so quickly that they made mistakes. Whenever the reason, whenever a new facility came online, a frantic search for ground loops ensued.
Coopersak, you're saying Transparent has electrical cable that replaces Romex wire? Is this something new? I didn't see it on the website.
They sure do. Get in touch with your Transparent dealer, or call them directly. The MM2 level is new, the others have been in the line. These have been available for the custom install home theater market.
coopersark
By the way Glen, using the term "replacement" is somewhat of a misnomer. To use my preamp analogy above, it is like saying that the Audio Research REF 40 is a "replacement" for a Hafler DH 110. At the Transparent MM2 power cable level, it is a "How did I live without it for all these years" replacement!
coopersark
Coop:
Yes, I owned the MM2 speaker cable for a couple of years. I wasn't aware they had actual wiring you could use instead of Romex. I would then assume other manufacturers also have wiring as well. I'll look into that.
What can make a difference:
- Dedicated lines, one per power amp, one for digital stuff, one for analog
- All on the same phase to minimize hum
- Isolated grounds in a star configuration, also to minimize hum
- Shielded electrical cables -- BX or better yet, in conduit -- again, to minimize hum
- Balanced power, again to minimize hum (fairly esoteric -- requires a transformer)
- Power conditioning (but make *sure* it doesn't do more harm than good, if a conditioner is undersized or overfiltered it will starve your amp of current)
- Lifting grounds and using GFCI's instead for protection (a bit of a hazard if the GFCI fails) -- again, to minimize hum
- Oversized cable on power amp circuits. The size of the circuit itself doesn't matter, 15A is fine -- it's the cable that counts, because it's what causes voltage drop. Generally, 10 gauge is the heaviest that will work with standard receptacles (14 is normally used for 15A circuits, 12 gauge for 20A). If you really wanted to go nuts, you could run a 100 A cable to a subpanel in your listening room, and branch off from there. But we're really at the point of diminishing returns
- New, commercial grade receptacles (hospital grade ISO ground if you go that way), particularly if the ones you have are loose (plugs go in too easily)
- Tighten screws on receptacles you do have if they're still in good shape, but don't overtighten, they can break
Of these, I'd say that dedicated lines and heavier gauge cable are most likely to have a sonic effect, but obviously, if you hear any hum, you should address that first.
Josh, I have done all of the above, with the exception of running a dedicated separate earth ground from my audio sub panel, and using Shunyata outlets in place of the hospital grade outlets. The one area where I think that you are wrong is in using 15 amp circuits. You are assuming modest power amplification - especially transient information. I can tell you that my huge, inefficient, class A mono block amplifiers would be choked at a 15 amp level - and that is running one dedicated line per amp! I have also found, ironically, that in the lower power consuming equipment (Preamp, headphone amp, other front end equipment) sounds more relaxed, quiet, detailed, and dynamic with the higher amperage lines feeding them as well. Since the breaker really costs no difference (15 vs 20 amp) and the wire is a one time install, what would one have to loose by doing it right the first time? 10 gauge multi strand cable and 20 amp circuit breakers are the way to go! Another tip on install - have your electrician use some Caig contact cleaner/enhancer when the connections to the breaker and outlet are made. Best, Rob
coopersark
Hi Rob,
The point I was trying to make is that the current that the circuit can deliver is based on the wire gauge, not the breaker size -- unless you load the circuit so heavily that the breaker trips! Which isn't likely to happen with a dedicated line. So if for example you have 10 gauge cable, you can put a 15, 20, or 30 amp breaker in without having any effect on voltage drop or the current your amp can draw.
Another way of reducing voltage drop is to run the amp off 240 VAC, if your amp will accept it. That has the added advantage of being balanced, because you're using both phases. If you really want to go crazy, you can use 10 gauge cable for your 240 V circuit and get even less voltage drop.
The nice thing is that while you can't use a 30 amp breaker on your line, since it would be a fire hazard and violate code, you *can* use 10 gauge cable with a 15 or 20 amp breaker and receptacle to reduce voltage drop. (AFAIK, the few amps that are so big they'd pop a 15A breaker at 120V are designed to run off 240 volt lines, but it's possible that a few are designed to require 20 amp circuits. But you almost never see that, because manufacturers don't want to make a product that people with 15A receptacles can't plug in!).
Agreed! I have a couple of 240V lines installed in my room, as well, in the event that they are needed!
coopersark
Josh, I find it amazing that I see so many folks who are into our hobby that have fantastic audio playback hardware, but do not have properly designed and acoustically treated listening rooms, nor proper electric distribution to their audio equipment. The equipment that they own will never be utilized to its best effect, by a long shot! If one wants an immersive and involving listening experience, the listening room and electrical distribution to that room are absolutely essential. Unfortunately, not all listeners have the extra real estate for a dedicated sound room - by far the most expensive component in a system, but unless they are apartment dwellers (They may be limited to just power conditioners, which in many cases is better than nothing at all.) they do have the ability to improve the power delivery to their audio systems. Good listening, Rob
coopersark
That's the thing, not everybody has that luxury. I don't know how many posts I see from guys struggling with WAF. In many cases, they're lucky even if they can pull their speakers out from the wall. I like to gripe because my listening room is smaller than I'd like and has to do double duty as a home theater, but I can arrange everything around my speakers and treat the walls to my heart's content -- I should really be counting my blessings!
You and I married the right women! When my wife wanted a new home, she used a dedicated listening room a "carrot" for us to build that home. Marrying her and building that sound room were two of the best decisions that I had ever made!
coopersark
Heh, clever woman!
When I renovated my listening room, I ran a bunch of independent 20A circuits everywhere. That way, I can repurpose them when I move everything around, as I inevitably end up doing. I figure I can always rewire them for 240 V if I decide to go that way.
I can relate. When I built my listening room, I had designed in some electric distribution redundancy for being future proof. As my grandfather, who was a tailor used to say,"Measure twice, cut once!"
coopersark
Cooper:
If you look at another thread in this forum -- which I started -- lifting ground is met with horror by some prominent manufactuers, notably Nordost. I had lifted grounds in the past, but MAN, did I get an earful when I suggested it. Steven Stone of TAS even spoke of doing it and the responder castigated him to shreds.
If someone does lift the ground, they should use a GFCI receptacle. That way, at least you have some protection if there's a ground fault. Unfortunately, GFCI's aren't that reliable, particularly in lightning-prone areas.
Glen, I am not a proponent of lifting grounds. About 20 years ago, at my former home, I was listening to music at a time that a thunderstorm had just arrived. Lightening hit my home - it blew slates off the roof and split an oak tree in half! I lost a television and the electric range in my kitchen. My audio equipment's relays had shut off but all I had to do was turn the components back on and I was ejoying music once again. Since that experience, I will never float a ground. For my current audio system, I have a dedicated sub pane that is located beneath my listening room, to minimize the runs to the outlets.This sub panel possess a dedicated earth ground that is separate from the rest of my home's grounding. The amazing result is that what I hear in my listening room is better than what I have heard in any dealer's showroom, any other home, or show. There is an increase in effortless dynamics, library quiet, and detail in the recordings, which brings me closer to the music (or the music closer to me). Floating ground is not only potentially lethal to your equipment, but to you as well. The risk is not worth it, especially when there are alternatives.
coopersark