Do cables take time to settle or do we just get used to the sound?
David Matz -- Thu, 09/30/2010 - 22:19
I am wondering if "cable settling" reported by audio show attendees is just a psycho acoustic phenomena or whether there is something to it.
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Always funny stuff......yup, my cables are still "breaking in" the ones behind the walls powering my outlets! How come my car mass of wires and connectors don't need to settle in? do 747 jetliners need to have their miles and miles of cables settle in? Who came up with the marketing idea, to let people wait until say the demo period is up, for having your wires settle in? Great ploy to keep people at bay.
Of course that wire sounds better!
The difference between audio cables and cables in automobiles and 747 jets is that our brains don't interpret data (music) subjected to cables in automobiles and 747 jets.
I've wired up and lived with perhaps 100 new sets of cables and can tell you that they indeed "settle in."
Here's an experiment: Visit a room at a hi-fi show on the first day and on the last day. Ask if they changed anything during that time (they usually haven't if the room sounds good the first day). Compare the sound between the two days; it's always better later in the show. Exhibitors often lament the fact that just as the system is starting to sound great, they have to tear it down. Cable settling is the reason.
Yeah, but teh rest of teh internal systems of say that simple flying machine called a 747 sure do "interpert" teh data, and if teh wire is CHANGING teh data, how do them planes stay up there? so if the wire changes and YOU hear this, why do only our ears hear this, but no other electronics, electrical or toaster have the need to "settle in"? How bizare are you? Do you think legit wire mfgs., would have figured this out, over the last 100 years or so? Can you publish a hearing test on your sensory abilitys? I think you and teh otehr guy Fremer must have ears that most humans don't. He hears demagnetized plastic, and wires of course, when is a WIRE settled in? And does it ever settle down forever, or do it keep on a changing? What a load of BS, come do you have test data that shows a signal changed? Legit tests, not ad copy from scam wire sellers.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Would the purity of the copper have any relationship to this?
no, and you can hear this molecular thing going on? What is exactly changing, lotsa words and dreams, WHAT changes in a piece of WIRE? And what is audible, in that change? Got some real specs and tests, or just thoughts and dreams? If the wires keep changing when are they completely "settled" in? Your imagination has gone wild.
Of course that wire sounds better!
2 days later did anything in your body change, your mood, your blood pressure, your sinus, barometric pressure. What exactly changed in these very unstable wires? Facts, not just audiophile BS. What what what, physical property of teh wire changed, that people hear? And is it all brands of wires, or just certain ones, you do realize you are just talking out your ass, making stuff up, like most reviewers do.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Come to my place, Ethan Winer RealTraps, will supervise, show me you can hear the sounds of WIRE. I have a pretty good setup 5200+ W on some Legacy Whispers, with some great Sound King 12ga WIRE! If I move em, they still sound the same. Mickey Fremer refuses to take the challenge on demagged records, how come all teh writers and reviewers that make claims, never can or want to PROVE what they claim, like a politician, take the Challenge. Mickey didn't want, cus he knows he can't possibly tell one record from the other when he doesn't know which is which, but he sure knows how to sidestep reality, like you do. Since you are an expert, a reviewer with so much experience, and education on this stuff, WHAT is changing in the wires, what is "settling in? What physcial changes are happening, that is AUDIBLE. Facts, not hyperbole, and double speak, FACTS. Not the let your ears decide nonsense, you make the claim, where are the facts, specs.. Easy to make a claim, when you never have to answer up to it.
Of course that wire sounds better!
That is truly ridciulous you know. So how do you know what the wires where doing before the show, you mean everytime they are touched they need to be "settled in"? Of course the temperature or barometric pressure didn't change in teh place. Your mood sinus etc didn't change, BUT this piece of inert WIRE, is? Your body didn't of course, your hearing is all the same every minute, BUT this piece of wire is in a constant stae of flux? you have been around how long? Did you ever learn anything about anything? Come on, where do you guys dream this stuff up? And WHICH wires, are there a particular one in teh chain that YOU hear? Do you realize how DUMB you sound?
Of course that wire sounds better!
"Yeah, but teh rest of teh internal systems of say that simple flying machine called a 747 sure do "interpert" teh data, and if teh wire is CHANGING teh data, how do them planes stay up there? so if the wire changes and YOU hear this, why do only our ears hear this, but no other electronics, electrical or toaster have the need to "settle in"?"
And I'm the the one who sounds "dumb"?
So what is changing in this energetic piece of wire, that doesn't settle down? Besides your very energetic imagination. So every time you move a wire to a different geographic location, it changes something in it? WHAT, what is changing? Let alone something you hear! I've moved my wires, and it sounds the same to me, my system is quite complex, and very detailed. No wire ever had a sound, no matter what I do to the wire locations? Why is it teh wires outside, not what is inside the electronics, you know the stuff you can't buy teh magic stuff for, to replace with better sounding stuff. Like the transformer windings, the interconnect hook up wires inside, only teh wires that wire hucksters can sell you new, like speaker, AC line cords, etc. How do live events ever get done, the stuff is moved every day? you mean it ain't never gonna settle in?
Of course that wire sounds better!
You like many others who denied the audible differences in wire/cables need to really get a grip on reality. Would you deny what you see and what you hear about anything in life? Do you question you brain on everything you experience in life? How would you distinguish what is real and what is not? Do you trust your senses as a human? Think about this for a minute.
A wire is a conductor of electrical energy and not every wire conducts electrical energy the same way, the material a wire is made of influence how it conducts. Not every metal has the same natural properties. Copper, silver, gold, palladium, etc. have different natural properties as a conductor. Think about this like water, it looks the same no matter where you get it from but your body will not re-act the same on any type of water. So electrons don’t re-act the same on every type of conductor (wire/cable), the better the conductor the better electrical energy will flow. And this is what makes audible difference in wires/cables (there is more that contributes to make a good cable but this is the start). Now regarding the settle of a cable is an audio system, yes it takes time for electrons to properly flow on a conductor and the better the conductor the faster the proper flow will take place. This is the audible difference that can be heard. Many people who deny audible difference in cables need to stop asking for the world to prove this to them and prove it to themselves. If you don’t hear any difference between wire/cables that is fine but don’t assume that other people can not hear a difference. Not everyone listen from the same ears. If want to convince yourself about whether cables make a difference in audio try cables made of difference type of conductors. Pay close attention (with your ears NOT your brain) about how the sound will change with time.
Here Here (or hear hear). Unfortunately you cant educate some people and cedup would seem to be one of these people.
Why is the change only to the point where the internal wires don't matter, but only what some scammed can sell you to change. Why does a magic AC cord matter up to where it connects to the pre amp or Cd player, but the internal hook up wires, remain and the magic works through them? Have you looked at the very cheap, wires inside most equipment, even units that cost way more than they are worth? Truly amazing how gullible people are.. Does my tv need to have it's wires settle in, I'm still waiting for a change, ain't happening.
Of course that wire sounds better!
What is changing as these wires "settle in". you make a claim, that sounds more like imaginary dreams? If it's so audible, what changed? you have no clue, admit it, you are parroting some dopey ads, in magazines, and that's science in the marketing dept. Why does my new refrigerator not need to have it's line cord "settle in" Or new washer and dryer? How do the electrons know one is used in audio, the others in appliances? do you realize how DUMB this sounds, that teh wire is an audible CHANGING part of an electrical device? So my stereo should sound better in an older hosue, some of them old wires are settled in, to the point of being a fossil, in the 70 year old walls I've pulled apart! TEH is a wurd!
Of course that wire sounds better!
Yes you do. Making retarded claims, and being a shill for nonsense products.
Of course that wire sounds better!
If I take my speaker cables or interconnects to a friends house and hook them up to their system they wont sound their best for about 24 hours and when I return them to my system the same thing occurs. Its the same if I take my preamp away and return it.
When I moved house a year ago I put in a couple of dedicated heavy guage lines into my new room. It took a full TWO months ( or should I say TOW months!) for them to break in and sound their best. Go figure. I must be "dumb" too but at least I take the time to read what I have typed and try to correct any glaring errors. I dont like people thinking I am dumb and stupid as well!
The wires inside your walls had to take 2 months to sound better. Please explain what AC NM wire sounds like when it's not "settled" and when it is. so NM wires now have an audio spec? Which manufacturer did you use, I will contact them to see what they say about your findings, that their NM AC wire has an audio property to it. Was it SouthWire, Carol Cable which brand, i will invetigate this . What changed in 2 months? And if you don't know what NM is, it's Non Metalic Sheathed wire. The stuff in your residental walls. No audio specs on any data sheets, what do you hear?
Of course that wire sounds better!
I used standard copper cable but twice the normal thickness. I use two new duplexes. One PS Audio gold and another I got from Sound Application. I have done this before with the same results. When I first switched my system on I had to double check my connections (on three occasions) because it sounded so bad. The sound is cluttered and indistinct.The bass is constipated. Its like buying a new component. You need to burn it in. As I said I thought I had made wrong connections. This went on and on. After about 200-300 hours things started to clear up. Sound was much better resolved and detailed.Bass was fuller. I am told that you need to draw a lot of current through the wire before it breaks in. Best done with a vacuum cleaner. I dont know why, I just know its true. Most people (including my electrician who is a musician) find this hard to believe but I know it to be true.
BTW I consider this 'update' to be one of the best (and cheapest) things you can do to improve the sound of a high end system.
What changed? you are stating things like it's fact. What is changing, everyone says it's happening but nobody has a clue what is changing, thus, teh conclusion is, it's all nonsense. Imagination gone wild.
Of course that wire sounds better!
any special brand" of vacuum cleaner? Why not a Procter Silex iron or toaster, they use even higher watts? Now of course you knew that you changed teh wall outlets, what if someone went in there and changed them to a good ole' Leviton standard residential grade available for about $2 for a box of 10. I bet you would never know without looking, I am sure you wouldn't.
What exactly is changing as teh wire "settles in" so you draw higher current through a wire, what changed, when you later run you stereo? Admit it, you have no idea, and are just going along with some marketing dept that has convinced people this nonsense exists. What changed in the wire, that is audible to you, none of teh dopey audiophile terms, like congested, constipated, blah blah blah. That is dumb. What in the wire, changed, that you can hear, so I can do this scientific test myself. What brand was the wire? Specs, and more specs, lets not just make up stuff. Like most audio reviewers do, expecially that Hartley guy, he makes a claim, and therefore it's real.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Since you are convinced that wires are all the same (don’t make a difference) and that “settle-in” is bogus, instead criticizing reviewer’s claims. Why don’t you provide probe of what you are saying with spec and more specs. Provide a scientific study that clearly shows your argument.
You want i prove a negative? that's not logical. It's like a new medicine, making a claim that it fixes something, when it's just a sugar pill. I take it, it does nothing, I have to prove nutin' happened? HUH?!!!! I tried to think and nothing happened.....
Of course that wire sounds better!
cedup? should be shudup. Let your ears be the judge,nitwit!
They do, which is why I contend this "settling" of wires is pure nonsense. If I change speaker wires, interconnects all at the same time, which ones matter most when settling in? Perhaps you have seen one too many wire ads from wire scammers, to think that it's all BS. My ears do tell me, you can't define what is going on can you. specs, physical changes, what is happening, if you hear this effect. If ya make the claim you can hear it, what are you listening too? What changes? Admit it, you have not a clue neither does Hartley, he's selling BS. Do pro audio wires also settle in, or only audiophile goofballs? What wire company can I contact to get some information on this effect? Does carol Cable, Southwire, makers of NM wires, that I have been told here "settles in" and it took 2 MONTHS! Was it Southwire, what brand, I need to contact the mfg to see what they know about their products, related to how it sounds in audio. Somebody suggested i run a vacuum cleaner, this is going to make my stereo sound better........pleasese elaborate on this gem!
Of course that wire sounds better!
Yes, cables do take time to settle. Many audiophiles believe in that 'Cable Cooker' as a diagnostic burn-in tool...
Explain that claim, what is changing in the wire? What is audible, how, what where. Easy to make a dopey claim, explain it....since you seem to agree with the absurdity. What does a "cable cooker" do besides take money from fools.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Okay, I'm not an audio extremeophile...my ears just aren't that good. That said, I do enjoy music through high-end components (not my own), finding that the music has far more emotional impact for me-- I've been brought to tears by a John Adams piece played on a very high-end system and only liked it on a lower-end one. This "cable settling" issue bugs me. Could it be that it's not so much the cable as the connection? By way of example, if one leaves two very flat, polished metal surfaces in contact with each other, they will stick through the action of atomic force. This takes a little time to develop. Better contact would mean better electron flow and perhaps better sound. Could it be that this is what we (you) hear?
If this be true it's easily measured, contact resistance is a standard electric/electronics spec. And I will put money on it, when you have a secure connection, nothing any more secure, or coated or treated with magic connection audiophile goo, is going to make it sound better. This is not to be confused with cleaning dirty oxidized electrical contacts with high resistance, which is a problem, in anything from a light bulb to audio signals. fo Foo dust doesn't make things sound better, it makes money for scam artist selling this nonsense to fools.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Fair enough. Then I guess gold contacts make no difference either. Simple firm contact will provide all the possible signal, immediately? I'll grant that logic is an organised way of going wrong with confidence but logically, the more atoms you have sharing electrons, the better the connection, even though one can achieve the same level of resistance with a less efficient connection. And that's my run-on sentence for the day! My point is that their are many who claim to hear a difference. You (cedup) seem to be inferring that they are deluded by snake-oil salesmen. Surely there's a way to test this...like using a spectrum analyser before using your wire as a skipping rope and then after at regular intervals. I don't think that resistance is a measure of what sounds good but looking at the frequencies over time should show some difference. Else, it's teh kittehs in ur stereo partayin with ur woofers and tweeters...just sayin'
gold or silver doesn't "sound" any different than anything else, gold on electrical contacts is used to prevent them from corroding, in computers, in washing machines, cars, it is simple, simple concept. Nothing else. simple chemistry, no corrosion, better signal contact. If you use a perfectly clean hunk of steel as a connector and one plated in gold, they ain't sounding any different, guaranteed! No matter what huckster that sell magic wires and connectors convince you in full page BS ads.
Of course that wire sounds better!
I have a cable that connects with BNC connectors, which are loose and are nickle plated. I have some gold plated RCA adapters on order to use in place of the removable nickle male plugs on the cable on the theory gold is better than nickle and tighter is better than loose...or, I might have flushed about $10 down the drain...
I suggest that cedup read about the DTCD measurements developed by Shunyata that show measurable differences between power cords. It's all on the Shunyata web site.
You gotta be kidding right!!!!!!!!!!!! They also make $1000+ record demagnetizer! They are exactly the purveyors of BS that is the problem. they are selling you horse crap, plated with whatever better sounding material it is this month.. If that is what you choose as Proof that wires "settle in", you really are clueless, and another shill for total nonsense! . Come up with REAL FACTS not advertising BS.
Of course that wire sounds better!
What about a ll the non magic wires AFTER the power cord? The ac line cord is in front of a mains transformer, which has hundreds of feet of WIRE on two sides, why is that wire not changed, but an AC line cord changes the sound of the thing. What kind of wire goes to the fuses, fuse holder, bridge rectifier, filter caps, all after the AC line cord, do you understand anything about how anything functions? You just make statements, that are asinine! Are you related to the jokester M. Fremer?
Of course that wire sounds better!
I wonder what curiousmind, who made the original post, thinks of all this. As for cedup: As I said before, you can't educate some people.
So far no one has laid out any FACTS, tests, that prove this BS is real, everyone just says, yup, it happens. Must be nice to con yourself, while others make money off your stupidity? What is changing in a piece of wire, and it would seem any wire, right, what ever wire, it changes!!! What changes, and why in audio bizarro world, do all changes make things better? Because teh ads said so, and you fall hook line and sinker. What changes in a piece of wire, no one knows, even the comedian Harley, who really should be ashamed of himself, shilling and parroting ads, when he obviously has no idea how any thing electrical functions.
Of course that wire sounds better!
This is sure one interesting thread! I have to agree with you that a piece of wire is just an inert object to pass an electrical signal and the notion of cables settling is sheer nonsense as there are no physical changes occuring. One audio sales-clown told me I would have to come back to the store after 24 hours if he repositioned the speakers because the cables would need time to settle in their new position for optimal performance!!! Is that hilarious or what? I would have to say, though, that not all cables sound the same due to differing measured electrical properties. But outside of that the placebo effect is very powerful. Below is a link to a posting from the notable speaker designer, engineer and scientist, John Dunlavy, with some of his thoughts on this nonsense. Of particular note is when he put some golden-eared audiophile experts to the test at his facility. These experts identified huge audible differences between 3 different speaker wires, when in fact, they were listening to the same 12 AWG zip-cord each time. The link is:
http://www.verber.com/mark/ce/cables.html .
I remember that DunLavy test. all these "expert reviewers", are fiction writers, and merely ads for dumb products. Harley is in teh same leauge as Fremer and his demagnetized PLASTIC records sounding better, and everyone he shows hears teh differences, and Atkinson, and the entire set of blowhards, and shills for audio hucksters. When will the FTC clamp down on scam companies, selling BS, at high profits, and these companies never have to produce facts, like other industry that their stuff actually does what is claimed, merely write color ads, show pictures of mountains and make clever names for useless products. They are all afraid of blind testing, since it will show how full of crap they are. I have asked Fremer many times to do his demag test blind, and he refuses, and they always side step in words, how they can't do it. con men, and fiction writers. Harley, where is the scientific facts, of what changes in what wires? you make a claim, and can't back it up. What brands, what type, who did the tests, all you do is say it, and then fools are gonna take your word, you are a fiction writer.. What procedures are used to determine the changes, besides self deluded nonsense.
Of course that wire sounds better!
jazzy, thanks for posting that link, it's interesting.
I trust RH's observations, but not necessarily his interpretations. Observations give rise to conjectures, but these need to be tested rather than taken as revelations. And clearly our brain is a BIG component of our stereo system, as a processor of sound.
-- Daniel
To all the naysayers, it's pretty simple: if you can't hear the difference, don't worry about it. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to "waste" your money. Granted, why power cords improve a system's performance and why cables need to "settle" in is not well-understood. However, that doesn't necessarily mean its not true! Everytime I swap out a cable or power cord that's already "broken in" I know from experience (before I heard or read such a phenomenon even exsisted) it takes ~50 hours before the system will "sing." Again, if you don't hear it, don't worry. Consider yourself lucky.
So YOUR spec is 50 mhours, others say 2 months! and still others have 100 horus! And of course you know that you changed teh wires, so you tell yourself, I hear a difference. do you realize how dopey your statements are? You are indeed teh perfect customer for nonsense. What is changing in 50 hours in the wires, that YOU HEAR!? So they have you cinvinced, since no one understands it, it is still happening! Hmmm, science has many things figured out, how do they mfg. the wires in teh first place, yet when the wire becomes tied to "audiophile bizarros" world, now all of a sudden things are not undrstood. Are you really that simple? Please explain the term "sing". you realize you are going into the world of non descript verbage that has no meaning. this is how the purveyors of product BS, get ya. They are never held to explain what they mean. Would you take other products, that are never explained, but only ads with total nonsense as it's claim? Do some blind tests, save your money, when you realize there is no such thing as wires "setelling" in. It's ad copy for scammers.
Of course that wire sounds better!
cedup, I think your listening and reasoning skills are about as 'high' as your writing skills--I counted 14 errors in your ONE paragraph. Please go spew your shrillness somewhere else.
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Tin-eared audiofool and Classical-music lover for about 50 years, terrible competitive pistol shootist, and amateur fotografer.
"Everythin
Perhaps your computer line cord is not good enough, it's not shrill on this end. Have you let your computer "settle in". Perhaps the cord between the keyboard is not correctly aged yet? There is 15 errors actually. Are wires like cheese? they need to be aged before consumed?
Of course that wire sounds better!
Like I said, if you can't hear a difference, don't worry...relax. I'm not spending your money.
But you are using up my air, and with your thinking process it's not fair. Wires have no sound, can't don't never will. No matter how many magic parts they tell you it has. Try dealing in reality, and science to understand what a condutor is and does in a particular ckt. Become educated in electronics and electrical parameters, before you think you hear shit that doesn't exist. Having knowledge, will set you free.
Of course that wire sounds better!
Agreed-
cables 'settle in'.
And people that have mush for brains, that don't allow for logical thought are perfect customers of BS. Buy your cable demagnetizers, and cable "burn in" shit. It allows the hucksters teh money to live well. I'm sure you can hear how better wall outlets sound too. And the otehr dozen assorted BS products.
Of course that wire sounds better!
cedup,
You commented....
>>>"You gotta be kidding right!!!!!!!!!!!! They also make $1000+ record demagnetizer! They are exactly the purveyors of BS that is the problem. they are selling you horse crap, plated with whatever better sounding material it is this month.. If that is what you choose as Proof that wires "settle in", you really are clueless, and another shill for total nonsense! . Come up with REAL FACTS not advertising BS."<<<
Your comments are incorrect. We do not make record demagnetizers or plated anything. If you are going to insult and ridicule legitimate companies and products, it might be wise to get a few of your facts straight. However, I don't think it matters to you since you believe any company that manufactures power-distribution systems must be by definition, corrupt. Clearly, you are out to attack everyone that does not hold your world view.
The measurements posted on our web related to the impulse-current and voltage delivery differences among power cords are accurate, as is the analyzer used to conduct them. You can argue their relevance to "audibility" all you like, but the science behind the tests and results are legitimate. There are also complete explanations there as to why A/V gear can be sensitive to the resistive properties of primary electrical connections and why this can and does affect audio and video performance.
There are hundreds of recognized recording studios, AV professionals, Mastering engineers and electronics manufacturers that use and endorse aftermarket power cords and understand that they need time to "settle in" in the same way amplifiers and CD players do. Many sound engineers choose these products based on controlled empirical testing. They would not use them if they did not make definable, repeatable differences in sound or video. To test any of these products is generally free and so simple that to waste energy arguing and name-calling on internet forums seems rather pointless; unless of course, the opportunity to vent angry rhetoric anonymously holds its own personal reward. If so, have fun with that.
Respectfully,
Grant
Shunyata Research
I use Legit power products from Furman, spec'd UL listed, not hocus pocus un definable BS. there is no "better sound" in a wall AC device, there is no NEMA spec on "audio grade" wall outlets, since there is no such thing. I have about a dozen Furman power products, they do legit electrical things. clearly defined, documented, easily measured. not hocus pocus nonsense, like unsubstantiated claims, Anti vibration wall outlets, PROVE IT! It's BS and you know it. Demagnetized records is pure horse crap. you know it, and so does Fremer and all the goof balls asociated with pawning off that nonsense.
Of course that wire sounds better!
cedup. That is great for you, Furman is a good brand. Again, you have Shunyata Research products confused. We do not make record demagnetizers. We do have UL listing on three models of our power cords and there is _zero_ unexplained "hocus pocus" or "BS" explanations on our web. We do have several patents that explain our tech and many pages of detailed measurements and easy to understand explanations as to how and why our products work. The outlets we use in our Hydra conditioners are manufactured to our spec by Hubbel and they are not plated. I don't come here or anywhere else to make claims, but we will respond to false, inaccurate name calling and ill-informed accusations. If you are going to sling mud and point fingers, at least know what you're talking about.
Respectfully,
Grant
Shunyata Research