A CD Transport to Match Berkeley Alpha DAC
Sam -- Fri, 07/03/2009 - 23:43
I have already gone through 2 CD Transports with the Berkeley Alpha: A cambridge audio CD-player and an oppo player used as transport, both were dissapointments; Alpha owners, Has Anyone tried any CD transports that work well with this DAC? suggestions would be nice.
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The only sources I've used with the Alpha DAC have been the Classe CDP-502 (AES/EBU output) and the music server I described in the January issue of TAS (also AES/EBU).
Berkeley has suggested to me that AES/EBU is the prefered interface to drive the Alpha DAC.
Did the HDCD light illuminate on the Alpha DAC when playing HDCD-encoded discs?
I've had an Alpha Dac for about 10 months and getting great results with a Nagra CDC used as a transport. They're connected with a Tara Labs Zero Onyx AES/EBU. I've heard other transports but none of them has come close to the Nagra in terms of resolution and neutrality.
Jeff
What Other Transports did you use? Im curious to know the brands/models.
I am curious from Sam if it was the Cambridge Audio 840C in pass through mode through the spdif jacks that he was disappointed with? Obviously it is not possible to use pass through mode with the aes/ebu jacks but it is supposed to be a very excellent output according to Dagogo reviewer. I was wondering since I am considering Berkely purchase but wont have enough money to buy a new transport too.
Audiofan,
The Cambridge I used was not the 840C it was an older model. I have no idea how the 840C sounds on its own or as a transport. I know that AES/EBU digital connection is the best option with the berkeley but the 840C only has RCA. I had ordered the oppo BDP 83 so I gave away the cambridge to my gardner. The oppo BDP 83 however stopped working completely after one week of use. I sent it back and the oppo guys said the power board or something was defective, they repaired it and sending it back, but I plan to not use it as a transport now because oppo has also alterd the transport mechanism/speed on the players TREY through software, that helps with the loading of disks. The Blue ray disks are fantastic on this player but 2 channel Audio I am not really sure (experts who have compared this transport with others would be of better help). I was using RCA spdif digital output on this player into the Berkeley. The Tray wobbles a little on my unit but oppo says it has no effect on sound quality. Trial and error of transports can be expensive so I would ask around to those who have actually tested some transports with the Berkeley. It is possible that my oppo is having extra problems so that creates a little doubt in my mind if I am getting the best out of the Alpha. However, some expert reviewrs are already raving about how good the oppo BDP 83 is on their blogs. Also in the recent golden ear awards 2009, Allan Tefal claims that the Bryston DAC is so good that it even makes a budget transport sound close to state of the art. I would assume berkeley is up there with the best, but I wonder if all transports are pretty similar and the price difference is mainly due to the DAC's in the player. May be someone else can shed some light who know more about transports. The main question remains, is the Oppo BDP 83 close to state of art as a CD transport with the Berkeley? I don't know..... Im sure oppo fans and reviwers will rave about it as it is great on its own and quite a bargain. But what transports out there are great with the Berkeley.....that info would help berkeley owners who are looking for a new transport.
I have also heard that the Nagra CDC is an excellent choice for the Alpha DAC.
Robert,
I contacted berkeley, and they also said that a lot of their customers are raving about the Nagra Transport in combination with the Berkeley. But Nagras are upwords of $11K in price. Certainly way beyond my budget. And I am guessing that Esoteric P03, Simaudio moon andromedia, MBL, DCS, Burmester, Spectral, all will be fantastic transports as well but at a price. The guys at berkely recommend AES/EBU as optimal digital connection. They also have seen Awsome results with hard disk music servers made well under $5k. They said that hard disk system fixes error problems seen in lazers reading optical disks, and also hard disks allow for high resolution files to be played via the Berkeley. My budget would be less than $5K for a transport. The P.S. Audio Perfect wave transport looks optomistic. I was also thinking about the Ayre CX7e cd player as a transport. Both have AES/EBU digital outputs. I have no idea how either one sound on their own or as transports. P.S. Audio claims it can read HR-X reference recording DVD's in high resolution directly in the transport without a computer. I wonder if it works only with the companion P.S. Audio DAC.....i.e. I wonder if P.S. audio transport will perform all its functions with the Berkeley?
I have a question for Robert. I do most of my listening to music with a few of the Slacker radio internet stream feeds through a duet player. Is the quality of the DAC , The Cambridge Audio 840C vs. the Bryston BDA-1 vs. The Berkeley Alpha DAC. Do you think you can hear a difference on these lower resolution files? It is great to hear a CD occasionally but i am wondering for lower quality sources, if you hear a noticeable difference between higher quality dacs?
Sam,
The PS audio Perfect Wave should be an excellent transport for the Berkeley Alpha because it does not actually play the files directly from the laser but is a memory player that reads the disk onto a RAM buffer of sorts at least a minute or two ahead of the disc reading. Also it has AES/EBU out, so would work with the Berkeley, I am thinking about this myself.
Mr. Robert Harley,
Please keep us posted on any news on the P.S.audio perfect wave transport. Any date set for you to get a sample for review. From what I know they are already getting sold to customers.....so I think its released.
I will report on how the Perfect Wave transport works with the Berkeley Alpha DAC.
Robert,
The HDCD light has not been tested yet on the berkeley. Could you recommend a few CD's that are HDCD encoded so I can see how they sound and if the berkeley is working properly for those. I went to Barnes&noble and best buy they said they didn't have anything of such sort. May be it can be ordered online. A few titles?
Sam,
I'm a very happy Berkeley DAC owner. There are actually quite a few HDCD encoded recordings out there; the cheapest, simplest way to get an HDCD recording is to download any of the recordings from the Reference Recordings label from hdtracks.com. Click on this link:
http://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file=browse_music&type=label&id=16
You only need to get one track from one of the albums to test, at $1.49 per track ...
Scott,
What is your other associated equipment with the Berkeley? specifically what interconnect cables are you using with the berkeley? also do you use balanced XLR or RCA. If you tested it with both what were your thoughts?
I will try downloading but how will I play it? don't have a music server yet. Just CD player and wadia i-transport to play my itunes songs on the ipod. do I burn a CD after the download?
I'm using Spectral DMA-360 v2 amps and Magico V3s, driving the amps directly from the AlphaDAC through MIT Magnum MA balanced interconnects (the Spectral amps require MIT cabling). Primary digital source is a Blue Smoke music server. I've not tried unbalanced interconnects; the Berkeley folks recommended balanced with my amps.
If you download the file in AIFF format, you can import it into iTunes and either burn a CD, or convert it to Apple lossless, sync it to your iPod, and play it back on the Wadia using the SPDIF connection to the Berkeley.
Thanks I will try down loading that today. I'm asuming u r using magnum ma speaker cables. Do you have a cd transpot? If u tested a few transpots with the Berkeley it would be nice to know what your thoughts were on those.
mr.harley any chance of matching berkeley alpha dac with tube cd players such as arc ref8?...if not is it worth a try?
How about Berkeley alpha DAC with ARC CD 5 player used as a transport. Does CD5 and REF 8 use similar Transports? Any one use it with BAD alpha DAC?
in terms of arc Ref 8 vs. alpha DAC, I would choose one or the other. Using the ref 8 as only a transport is more like an insult to such a great player lol.
Wait a minute. The "modern" DACs such as the Benchmark and Bryston reportedly do a superb job with jitter rejection rendering the transport quality almost irrelevant. Am I to understand that the superior sound Mr. Harley heard with the Berkeley DAC is significantly dependant on the quality of the transport?
It seems like there is mixed information regarding this. On one hand many reviewers say that hard disk as transports sound better than state of art transports. On the other hand when it come to cd spinning on the fly it seems like clocking and data extraction is significantly dependent on the transport and there is a difference in cheap vs expensive transports. The confusion starts due to the new DAC's that supposidly do an amazing job at eliminating transport/spdif jitter making a $60 transpot sound similar to $15k transport. Now the only way to answer that is to have expert reviewer do a comparison test in their reference system using the new DAC's and feed them with different transports and report results on that. If the results are not in favor of megabuck transports it could destroy sales/careers + animosity between expensive transpot companies and revieres. So lots would be on stake for this type of comparison test.
Although the transport makes less of a sonic difference with today's well-engineered DACs, they are not entirely immune to the transport's effects. On one hand, they are better at rejecting jitter. On the other, they are so much more resolving that they more clearly reveal transport differences. I've tried different AES/EBU cables between the Lynx card in my music server and the Alpha DAC and hear a clear difference. I also once noticed that the system wasn't sounding quite as good as it had previously. In the interim, I had moved the server from my equipment rack to the floor to drive the NAD M2 amplifier (review pending; it takes in high-res digital and converts the PCM signal to pulse-width modulation to drive the switching output stage) and then back into the rack again. When back in the rack, the sound was a little brighter with a less clean treble. The culprit? How the mass of cables coming out of the Lynx card was arranged behind the rack. That's correct; tightly coiling the unused cables and keeping them away from noise sources affected the Alpha DAC's treble performance. Life would be simpler if it weren't so.
Lol! Robert I've heard and tried all kind of tweaks but cord coiling. This type of minute difference would be very difficult for me to detect if at all. If the difference in the 2k transport vs a $12k transports are that small then again would be difficult for me to detect. However, if the differences are so obvious like in speakers or amps or preamps I can surely tell those differences. What I find confusing is comments like Allan teffel's that "bryston DAC makes even a budget transport sound near state of art transport". If that's true and also observed by other reviewers it would make life simple and wonderful. And the readers who don't have access to different transpotrs could invest that money into upgrading something that makes much bigger sound quality difference to their entire system that is clearly noticible.
Robery
Very much look forward to your report on Perfect Wave Transport + Alpha. This is exactly what I'm considering. I listened to the Alpha and love it. I also need a transport and am interested in the PWT. But I cannot decide whether I shall get the Perfect Wave combo instead of getting Alpha and the PWT. The dealer does not have the perfect wave combo for audition yet (they have sent it to the reviewers here)). Any experience that can be shared would be much appreciated.
Rudy
Robert - sorry, fat finger - should be a "t".
I'm scheduled to get the PS Audio Perfect Wave pair as soon as PS Audio's Bridge is available. Watch for an update when I get the review samples next month.
Robert, It would be nice if you could test and compare a budget transport and a reference transport with the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport passing through the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC. This will give new and significantly important information to TAS readers, especially the owners of Berkeley Audio DAC to make an informed dicision as far as what transport to MATCH with this perticular DAC. For Example, Alan Taffel in Issue 196 did a follow up review of Benchmark DAC1 Pre and found significantly different results from a previous reviewers findings. Alan didn't think that the Benchmark is the state of art DAC nor does it solve digital problems for good. Alan went into great depths to test this Benchmark DAC 1 using a reference $16K Goldmund Mimesis 36 CD transport as well as $699 Rotel RCD 1072 CD transport both using Coax S/PDIF. He found that the differences were very significant with the two transports when using the benchmark, however he found out that the Two transports were "FAR more Similar" through the Bryston BCD 1 dac. I wonder how good the BAD alpha DAC is at jitter rejection, CD transport quality effects and possible CD transport matches for the alpha DAC to provide near state of the art audio. Looking forward to your review! and thanks for being one of the most active and helpful contributers to the magazines website and readers.
I pre-ordered the Perfect Wave Transport and have been using it since the day it came out in front of several DAC's. The most interesting thing I've learned from using it was when I inserted it into a 6 month competition I've held listening to Redbook CD comparing the analog output of the Sony XA9000ES into the analog input of the Benchmark DAC-Pre to the SPDIF digital out from the Sony using a variety of dig. cable direct into the digital input of the Benchmark. This of course was an attempt to compare the sound of the DAC and output stage of the Sony to the DAC and output stage of the Benchmark using the same transport in the Sony. The results were the same for any dig. cable. I had previously familiarized myself with the sound of the analog pre-amp section of the Benchmark by comparing it to two other of my line stages. I thought it was a little warm, a little wooly and slightly less palpable in the midband than my dream solid state pre-amp. Alan Taffel seems to imply in the latest TAS that it is the most attractive thing about the Benchmark and does recommend it for that use in its' price range. I was an early buyer of the Pre-amp version and have tried it with everything I could get my hands on and NEVER fell in love with it. In this competition though loyalty was very nearly evenly divided. The 9000 almost never called attention to itself; the Benchmark did but not much. Again, neither was completely satifying. Listening critically to both revealed a fuller midrange and a high end that said I'm not oversampled for the Sony with less presence and less of a coherent soundstage. The Benchmark lacked what the Sony had in the middle and this absence effected enjoyment but it had a more coherent soundstage and presence with an slightly hyped(read oversampling) high end. If I listened mostly to the Sony I would tend to forget the sound and listen to the music. If the music was less good I would turn to the Benchmark(just a quick flip of the control of the Benchm.) for its' more etched, airy sound and be entertained sonically but then the edge would wear over time and I'm back to the 9000. This is what I mean by evenly divided. Neither was completely satisfying, enter the P.S. Audio Perfect Wave Transport with the Power Plant Premier into the Benchmark.(with stock power chords)
Ladies and gentlemen, a genius, uh, I mean, A WINNER. Whether it is a defect in transports or the media or error correction(double reed solomon) or jitter spectrum (read manuf. response in latest TAS) the Benchmark is NOT immune to most "things" BUT, and this is a big one, it CAN sound GREAT. Really fun to listen to and so much so that as a "DAC" and not for its' immunity it really is deserving of an "A" grade because of its' capability. I guarantee one can find very much enjoyment with this combination. Of course they are mismatched pricewise. Since Alan Taffel didn't experience this with his $16,000.00 Goldmund transport I'm gonna go out on my first limb and say it is likely that the 3000.00 P.S. Audio is better and I'm guessing would be for Redbook CD a great combo with the Berkeley DAC having never heard it.
Finally, it's upsetting that when I inserted P.S. Audio's top Power Chords into the mix on only the transport and Power Plant the bass got much better, not at all subtle: clear as a bell, tight and powerful to perfection but everything else is worse. I'm asking myself now if I'm in love with glare or just unwilling to let go of an overall glow in favor of a slightly gated less bright more focused sound. I'm less evenly divided on this than I was comparing the Sony and Benchmark; I mostly prefer w/o power chords. The bass really is phenomenal with though. Someone needs to make me a recommendation.
I bought a Sony XA5400ES because it was rumored to upsample Redbook to DSD and offer a better sound than the much more expensive 9000. We'll see.
Robert--When you review the PS Audio pair, please spend some time comparing the PS DAC to the Berkeley and, if you can, the Bryston BDA-1 DAC. I'm setting up a music server system using a Sound Source Music Vault 24-192 and am looking for a DAC to mate with it. The Bryston is more in my price range, the Berkeley is a stretch, but the PS DAC intrigues me with the apodizing filters, which you noted was a common factor in the outstanding Meridian 808.2 and Spectral SDR-4000s CD players. I'm curious if these filters raise the PS DAC up to or near the Berkeley's level of performance. A couple thousand here, a couple thousand there, .....
Robert--When you review the PS Audio pair, please spend some time comparing the PS DAC to the Berkeley and, if you can, the Bryston BDA-1 DAC. I'm setting up a music server system using a Sound Source Music Vault 24-192 and am looking for a DAC to mate with it. The Bryston is more in my price range, the Berkeley is a stretch, but the PS DAC intrigues me with the apodizing filters, which you noted was a common factor in the outstanding Meridian 808.2 and Spectral SDR-4000s CD players. I'm curious if these filters raise the PS DAC up to or near the Berkeley's level of performance. A couple thousand here, a couple thousand there, .....
Jarvis,
I can't comment on the two DACs to which you refer. I can say, however, that the Berkeley Alpha (with a brand spanking new Music Vault Diamond), has greatly exceeded my already high expectations. Ripped Redbook CDs are superb, but Reference Recordings' Rachmaninoff HRX...well, I'll just say that I immediately ordered three more of the HRX disks. By the way, RR is having an excellent sale. 20% off two or more items, and that brings the cost of the HRX disks to a semi-manageable $36 each.
Mike
Geo/Robert and others with HRX disks, can you recommend 2 titles to try?their website has everything I never heard before but I want to purchase a few. So it would help. Thanks
Thanks for your reply and the info, Mike!
Sam,
If you like classical music in general and Rachmaninoff specifically, I can't recommend that title highly enough. I just ordered the others yesterday, but own nearly all of the Reference Recordings CDs. Assuming there's the same degree of uplift with HRX as I heard with the Rachmaninoff, I would recommend Shakespeare's Tempest and Crown Imperial for classical, and Thinking About Bix for jazz. I also ordered the Joel Fan HRX (which I do not own on CD) based on listening to the track samples.
I'm hoping that RR comes up with more titles in the near future. If they ever release Mephisto and Co. in HRX, jump all over it!
Mike
One further comment relating to the actual subject of this thread. I previously owned a very nice universal player (Ayre C-5xe) and was quite happy with it for several years. Its replacement, the combination of the Berkeley Alpha and the Music Vault Diamond, has completely and utterly spoiled me, however. I will never voluntarily return to a standard disk transport again. These two are both significanly more musical and vastly more convenient. What more can one ask? Yes, the price is on up there, but I would be willing to bet that the Benchmark/Mac Mini that so many are using would be a step up as well.
Thank you Robert Harley for steering me towards the Berkeley and thank you Neal van Berg for producing the Music Vault. I'll be doing a review of the latter in the next few weeks after I get its full measure.
Mike
I'm waiting for Pictures at an Exhibition on HRx—great sound and great performance.
Stereophile rated the Oppo BDP 83 in the "A+" catagory of CD-Transports in the october 2009 issue of recommended components. I wonder how it fairs with a similarly priced Rotel or more expensive state of the art transports. I wonder how sensitive the Berkeley is to Jitter? Eventhough my Oppo's powerboard died out, even after it came back from repairs it still sounds better than the Wadia 170 i Transport when played through the Berkeley in my system. These findings are opposite to those who reviewed the Wadia i Transport in Stereophile. The reviewer found no difference in the Wadia 170i or simaudio supernova's transport. Wadia 170I Transport owners, what were your findings? does it sound better/worse/or same as the CD transports?
I own a modified Music Hall cd25.2. This is the Underwood HiFi "T-mod" advertised on A'goN. I also had them beef up the power supply section which took the cost from $1290 to $1440 if memory serves. I use it with the very musical Audio Aero DAC which is the Capitole SE player without the transport - never cared for their top-loading mechanism. I am pleased as punch with this setup and think the transport would be very tough to challenge for under $5k.
Robert:
What about a cable recommendation from the Lynx 16 to the Berkeley DAC?
Erol
I've compared the stock AES cable that comes out of the Lynx card with just one aftermarket AES cable and preferred the stock cable. The stock cable was smoother and more refined, although I can imagine some listeners preferring the aftermarket cable, which was a bit more vivid.
Mr. Harley or anyone else:
Has anyone tried the MBL 1521A CD transport with the Alpha DAC? That sounds like it might be a good fit too on the face of it.
Thanks
As a test, I've ordered a cable from Redco, which should be delivered today. I'll let you know how it turns out.
I've also heard good things about the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport. We're scheduled to get one for review once the new PS audio Bridge becomes available to complete the Perfect Wave Transport and Perfect Wave DAC package.
Paul McGowan was behind the Genesis Digital Lens, an outboard data buffer from the early 1990s. The Perfect Wave Transport uses a more sophsiticated implementation of that concept.
Thanks for the advice Mr. Harley.
Wow. This thread sure took a nose dive.
What is needed is to verify whether a de-jittering DAC, (i.e a memory buffer with re-clocking), is affected in any way, (short of underflow or overflowing the buffer), by any transport where the bitstream data are logically identical. If data are lost or added that would be easily verified without the DAC by running a compare of the bitstreams. Assuming no data change, any sonic difference would be indicative of an inability of the DAC to properly re-clock input streams with differing jitter.
The output from the buffer of the DAC could be fed and tested for jitter and data preservation to determine if a difference exists. The thing which is necessary is to follow proper laboratory procedure, so that differences are introduced solely by the components under test.
I would love to see such a test, as I think it would show one way or the other whether a properly designed and executed DAC which reclocks the datastream has any dependency upon the transport. Logically, it should not, or it should point to an as yet undiscovered aspect of data integrity than data accuracy and jitter.
Who is going to do it?