CD player vs computer/server system.
default -- Sun, 03/15/2009 - 09:20
Has anyone heard a computer based or stand alone hard drive server compare in sound quality to a good CD player ($4-6K range like Ayre or Esoteric)? Some are telling me its stupid to go for less sound quality with CD player. Not worried about the convenience stand point. Want sound quality.
thanks
barondla
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I've found that even a lowly Apple TV can, when coupled to a DAC, deliver surprisingly high quality sound from 44/16 files.
Personally I feel that stand-alone red-book CD players are a technological dead end. And yes, your money would be better spent and better future-proofed by purchasing a PC and a compatible DAC.
If you already have a good DAC, try hooking it up to an Apple TV or Mac Mini and compare it to your CD player or transport. I think you'll be surprised by how competitive the sonics of the Mac gear is, and at a far lower price point.
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
Several points to consider:
1) As long as the game is restricted to the CD format only, PC + DAC combos can perform very well and can be (I think) competitive with very high quality standalone CD players.
2) That said, you do have to be mindful of the quality of various ripping methods, digital interconnects used, and issues related to jitter/clock accuracy for best results. Another issue is computer fan noise, which can be significant. You could, of course, go with a solution that allows the computer to reside outside of your listening room, but then you're looking at something along the lines of a Logitech Squeezebox solution.
3) However, one reason you might choose to spend $4k-$6k on a high-end disc player would be to purchase one that can handle disc formats other than CD --formats that arguably offer better sound quality than the CD format does in the first place (SACD, DVD-Audio, etc.). If you want multi-format playback capabilities, then some form of "universal" disc player becomes a potentially viable and appealing solution.
Both Ayre (via its C-5xeMP universal stereo player) and Esoteric (via any number of high-quality universal players) seem to have bought in to the multi-format mindset.
Personally, I find the multi-format approach compelling. I use a Musical Fidelity kW SACD player as my digital reference, and can switch at will between CDs and SACDs, which I do on a pretty regular basis. I find the player generally sounds better (even on CDs) than many PC + DAC combos I've heard, though in fairness that is partly because my player gives the option of listening through two different but very high-quality analog output stages--one that is tube powered and the other solid-state. That's an option not many DACs provide.
Chris Martens,
Editor, Playback
Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision
While you can't play SACD on computer, you can play download 24/88 and 24/176 files which the majority of high end CD transport cannot play .
In comparison to my old CEC TL-51XR CD player, my computer (both connected to the same DAC) did very well so I did not keep my CD player around. However, I still keep a Pioneer Univeral player connects via iLink for occasional SACD listening (however few that I have).
Lynx AES16 card has excellent digital output via XLR and a number of DAC with asynchronous USB input does make computer a more convenient
way to listen to digital music without sacrificing quality in comparison to traditional CD transport, I believe.
I've posted my experience in this area as a blog "Do Hard-Disk Drives Sound Better Than CD?" here:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/do-hard-disk-drives-sound-better-cd-0
You can rip DVD-Audio discs that are 24/88.2, 24/96, and 24/192. So, SACD is really the only format I would use with physical media. Sonic Studio's Amarra will be able to handle native DSD in the somewhat near future. DSD and DXD downloads are currently being discussed by at least one lable I talk to. Maybe some of the SACDs will be released as DSD downloads if the material was originially DSD.
I just can't see sinking any money into a physical disc player for the foreseeable future.
Chris Connaker
Founder
Computer Audiophle
Hey Chris,
How do you rip DVD-A in 24/96, 24/192. I have a few and I have been searching the internet to find a software that will do this but no one seems to know any?
Thanks,
Jeff
Robert,
In your blog you note "The ideal solution is hard-disk-based storage with no S/PDIF interface." Wouldn´t such a solution introduce jitter because of the noise of the hard-disk-drive?
You rightly point out that the jitter problem remains with typical USB-connected DACs. Do you think this is different for the recently announced solution by dCS: http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/product/scarlatti-upsampler. From that webpage:
Asynchronous USB Mode
In USB, there are numerous modes for synchronising the audio between the PC (the host), and an audio device. The most popular of these, "adaptive", involves the audio device synchronising itself to the USB "frame" provided by the PC. This tends to give poor jitter performance. The Scarlatti Upsampler's USB interface operates in "asynchronous" mode (NOT to be confused with asynchronous rate conversion), where the Upsampler synchronises the audio by providing a feedback pipe to the PC. The PC then is effectively locked to the Upsampler, which can have a much more accurate clock and much lower jitter.
How is the use of the word "asynchronous" here different from yours?
Many thanks for your insights.
The term "asynchronous" means that the input and output clocks run independently of each other. I believe that DCS doesn't rely on the USB clock for its timing reference.
Note that DCS is quick to distance itself from asynchronous sample-rate conversion, which is entirely different (although it is based on the idea that the input clock to the sample-rate converter runs independently of the output clock). I comment on asynchronous sample-rate conversion on another thread here:
http://www.avguide.com/forums/benchmark-bryston-and-berkeley-labs-dac-pc-audio-systme
As for the question about hard-drive noise, it's not an issue; you can take digital audio data out of the computer via FireWire rather than S/PDIF with greatly improved performance.
Robert,
I thought Firewire is also quite jitter prone? (Isn't that the reason why dCS works with Firewire cable and a separate clock signal over S/PDIF for its connections between transport and DAC?).
I guess FireWire can nevertheless have greatly improved performance over S/PDIF, as you mention; but will the resulting music server also have better performance than a properly clocked transport & DAC?
thnx.
Thanks mr. Harley for the quick response. Remember reading this when printed originally (a subscriber). At the time I was looking at turntables more so it slipped my mind.
Seems like the Esoteric transport should be built better than the hard drives I have seen. Maybe the stumbling block is the cd itself. Wonder how well the center hole is placed, foil attached, etc. Maybe the problem is shooting thru the plastic layer. Anyone ever try thinner (to be same weight) glass instead?
Have you ever compared HD against solid state memory? Wouldn't solid state be capable of even less jitter? There are some mighty large SD cards coming in a few years (up to 2TB).
now I have no idea what to buy for my next cd player.
thanks
barondla
In a music streamer (like the slimdevices transporter) the digital signal that gets transmitted via ethernet is at SECTOR LEVEL, 1's and 0's by sectors (data blocks), nothing more and nothing else. Its not an analogue signal yet nor a single digital stream, therefore the only purpose the cables need to comply with is to transmit the data sectors of 1's and 0's precisely. If a sector doesnt get transmitted precisely, it simply doesnt play it. So any RG6 or RG5 ethernet cable that gets your file to the ethernet input of your rig is doing as perfect job as any other. Its just how ethernet works.
This would be completely different if we were talking about a cd transport to external dac situation where also bits get transmitted. In this transmission types jitter can be an issue with the link, since "in the context of digital audio extraction from Compact Discs, seek jitter causes extracted audio samples to be doubled-up or skipped entirely if the Compact Disc drive re-seeks. The problem occurs during seeking because the Red Book (audio CD standard) doesn't require block-accurate addressing. As a result, the extraction process may restart a few samples early or late, resulting in doubled or omitted samples. These glitches often sound like tiny repeating clicks during playback".
Due to additional sector level addressing added in the Yellow Book (CD standard), CD-ROM data discs are not subject to seek jitter." (from wiki) in a similar manner, ETHERNET IS NOT SUBJECT TO JITTER.
CONSEQUENTALLY, SINCE HARD DRIVES ONLY MANAGE AND TRANSMIT DATA BLOCKS, THEIR READING IS NOT SUBJECT TO JITTER! only when the d/a process begins, jitter becomes present, THIS IS WHY Any inexpensive HARD DRIVE IS UNQUESTIONABLY A BETTER TRANSPORT THAN ANY MULTIMILION DOLLAR ESOTERIC DEVICE!
When using HD's, only the D/A processes (clocking, conversion...) matter, you eliminate any errors in the reading!
After ripping my entire CD collection with iTunes in Apple Lossless format onto my PC in the study, the CD player is now gathering dust. My PC (along with the kid's PCs) is connected via Cat5 ethernet via router to my AppleTV, then HDMI to a Pioneer VSXLX60 for DAC, amp for Whatmough centre/ sub/rear spkrs, pre-amp out to Yamaha AX750 driving DynAudio front spkrs. I don't really know why (or really care I suppose) it sounds amazing but it just does. Certainly far better to my ears than the old Yamaha CD player.
Then there's the convenience of never leaving the couch because my Logitech Harmony 1000 remote lets me drive the AppleTV, Pioneer amp and Panasonic plasma to play any of my 4000 favourite music tracks (or my kids 5000+). If I get bored with that I can rent or buy a movie or TV show online from the iStore, view my digital photos expertly set to music, peruse YouTube videos or pick from 1000s of podcasts.
The AppleTV cost less than AUD$400. The rest of the AV kit less than AUD$15K.
I may not have the ear (or wallet) of a true audiophile, but I've found AV nirvana.
Thanks
Ed
How do you rip DVD-A in 24/192? I have a couple but I can't seem to find any software to do this. They all seem to rip in the standard 16/44.1 or 48. Does anyone know. I use my Yammy rxv3800 networked to my computer and although the sound is good, it is not as dynamic, precise as my oppo 983.
Thanks,
Jeff