Can anyone explain this ?
Yiangos -- Thu, 03/01/2007 - 15:11
I have seen in quite a few av amp owner's manual,recommending a strange subwoofer placement.To be more specific,they propose placing the subs (a pair) next to the side walls,facing the listener.In a few words,if you take the listener out of the equations,the subs face each other.We all know when you place 2 loudspeakers this way,frequancy cancellations come in effect.Isn't this applicable to subs as well or due to their (usually) less than 80hz response is there any other explanation ?
The best place for a sub is in the corner. The walls reinforce the freq.
In a word the notion is ludicrous
In fact you have hit upon a subject about which I may soon become the most renown expert on the planet.
I promise I will tell you the most amazing secret and new discovery you have heard of in years and it is totally earth shaking, believe me, but back to your question, it has made me wonder if I might recruit your assistance as well?
Do you have 2 subs and and of what type are they? :idea:
...when we bring our stereo input pickups indoors our minds-eye echo interpretive scanning bass frequency increases to one equal to the longest wavelength of that room's two most prominent reflective walls
HDphiler wrote:The best place for a sub is in the corner. The walls reinforce the freq.
Good answer if you have an undersized or horridly weak and inert sub
But honestly the 3 pi corner horn multiplier effect is only of some use for the most hardened, deadened and inefficient types of air suspension bass tweeters, though such units can produce a mildly ok and pleasantly disembodied basket of hums, thumps and pops. A bass reflexive resonator in a corner would probably show off more of its own tuned note than acceptable since it would be working more in pressure mode. A hardened sealed passive resonator type alone might benefit substantially though, as, of course, would any huge 12" or more bass tweeter.
No I disagree I would only use a triple corner for a tiny ultra hard thingy like an EPI or ADS, In my experience the most optimal positions are normally at floor/room thirds so u get at least 2 and change can move it in or out a bit over any nasty drones. As well it also makes a big difference concrete, frame drywalls panellng etc Id save the extremes till last, and If my sub only started to sound good in a triple loaded corner I'd be getting a bigger or better one because it must be too small to need so much help.
Anything that excites encourages or emphasizes what a point source outward facing acoustic pressure type speaker itself 'sounds like' is making it and it's housings into an "instrument" exaggeratedly more heard. The instrumentation purpose of a reproductive transducer is to be an absent inaudible 'thing' only heard through, most particularly for todays quite common massive inefficient high energy direct radiating bass tweeter pumps.
Corner loading never fools the human brain because it is constantly measuring the size of the room you are in, in stereoscopic scan mode and knows/scans each rooms resonant frequency not only so it will be instantly be able to tell what sounds must be outside(deeper) of it, but so it can be ready to turn back in any past direction do a direct + alternate 2 surface triangulation scan to hear the positions and distances of potential room noise events, like that saved sonic image u use after u've dropped something small.
Honky corner loaded bass pressure is a disembodied, fatiguing cheap thrill that doesn't last
Most ordinary wooden bass tweeter boxes in corners end up showing off more of their own particular droning resonances than all those other hums you wanted to hear though them, and actually I'm convinced this sort of method of using them like ears that needed a horn will become obsolete very very soon :)
And lol the original posters question was the 3,000 Lb gorilla in his (and all of our) listening rooms, and an ancient problem for which I have found a startling and incredible new solution.
Yes having those two overpowered, over-grown bass tweeters way out in the middle of your room directionally firing upon each other off your left and right flank with your ears in the crossfire is a very good policy for the squawk box makers and doing as they suggest would surely give your front and rear speakers if suitably far enough a way a half a chance to sound wee bit better and maybe even pass on an occasional good word to you.
Since you, in the crossfire of that destructive high bass sound pressurization battle royal, with your rugs, pillows, sofa, lazyboy, comforter and your old socks, briefcase bath towel, magazines electric bills, newspapers and pizza boxes would be eating up a major yet still insufficient portion of the wasted and wasteful high pressure destructive harmonic standing wave pressures that your subs, fighting with themselves and your rooms side walls have little reserve ammo and likely no good targeting solutions on their favorite former victims. your much weaker more fragile and easily corruptable rear and after 1 bounce off the wall - front tweeter cones!!
Banished to the obtuse solitude of the side walls where they will be turned down more often from that remote button closest to that bottle of Tylenol right beside the owners cellphone, and with all the owners junk in the way their non stop endless sub harmonic standing waves dance party that formerly could always get a giggle out of corrupting the sweetest and most precious stable high and mid frequency content of everything you listened to in exchange for the odd fun boom would now be almost over!!!
Putting these destructive accessories where they can do the most harm to the listener and directing the sound pressure pollution from these archaic "Sub Bass Tweeters" away from the critically important smaller bass tweeters and midrange tweeters and the actual tweeters that would otherwise likely all end up in the pawnshop cheap along with many more like themselves looking for a new home after having been discarded because the owner mistook for poor quality, their struggling distorted and muddied battle cries against the unrelenting sub bass pressure's many frequent rolling tempests of horrific unrelieved and unstoppable bass standing wave drones and hums those haphazard self powered dinosaurs of acoustic engineering ignorance flooded the room (and your neighbors homes) with, while all they struggled to do so hard was to produce some moderately less distorted renditions of the music you wanted to hear, in an uncontrolled sea of improperly mechanically synthesized sub bass reproductive pollution
sad story but be back with the FINAL BASS SOLUTION 4 uall tomorrow :) :idea:
...when we bring our stereo input pickups indoors our minds-eye echo interpretive scanning bass frequency increases to one equal to the longest wavelength of that room's two most prominent reflective walls
My basement HT room is very difficult, bass-wise. The ONLY satisfactory set-up I've found is with the two subs (Dayton Titanic III 10") in the rear corners of the room. That is, one in each of the rear corners, which is more or less flanking the listening position, as the couch is only out about three feet from the rear wall. In this position I get reasonably smooth response, with extension as good as can be expected from my small subs.
Wow.
I mean double wow.
agentbluescreen writes like nothing I have read since Tom Wolfe...BUT...BIG BUT...One or two thoughts per half sentence would make it much easier for those of us for whom english is a first language to understand.
I have this policy - if I have to read a sentence more than twice to get its meaning I don't bother, sorry.
But I really, really, like what you were trying to say here... :wink:
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
I'm a multiple sub kinda guy.
Basic rules:
1. subs in the corner of a room rely on room resonance augmentations to sound louder. Like most artificial augmentations the advantages (bigger) are often counterbalanced by disadvantages (sloppier).
2. My favorite way to find where to put a sub is to put it in your listening position (yes, up on that couch or chair) and run bass sweeps through it while you walk around the outside edges of your room. Find the spot that has the most even bass response. Put Sub #1 there.
Take sub #2 and put it in your listening position. Repeat.
Forget all the recommendations and recipes - use your God-given empirical powers...place, listen, move, place listen move...
Steven Stone
Contributor to The Absolute Sound, EnjoytheMusic.com, Vintage Guitar Magazine, and other fine publications
JL Audio highly suggests using two subs in a room. Perhaps the answer that we all seek is found within their knowledge base. I do remember that one or more of their reasons is that they state that two subs will actually help to tame (or cancel or minimize) room modes by properly and adequately (or better) driving (or pressurizing) the room. I am drawing from my memory, which is not word for word correct per their statement.
Each one can be set to a lower volume level so that each one will naturally have a tendency to be less boomy and less noticeable ... aka better sound and less room interaction.
However, I did, in the army in Germany in 1992 and 1993, have a pair of JBL L7 four way speakers with a bi-ampable 12" woofer in each speaker. Granted, the crossover frequency was much higher than a sub would be, JBL suggested facing them inward / towards one another for some reason that I cannot remember admittedly. Perhaps consulting JBL about that mindset would help.
Tom
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