Building an analog system

JR30 -- Mon, 03/31/2008 - 21:56

I am making my first venture into a two-channel system. I have never put a vinyl-1st system together before so I was hoping for a little advice from the pros. First off what would be the better route - separates or an integrated amp? I have been considering the NAD C272/C162 combo (possibly the Vincent SP331) or the Cambrige Azur 640C integrated. The nice thing about the NAD is that it includes a decent phono stage.

I am planning on basing the system around the ProJect RM 5 SE. Seems to be a good starting table for the money. Depending on $$ I would like to add in the Rega Apollo, but may have to substitue the Cambrige 540 CD player. I have been looking at a variety of speakers around my $1,000 price point, including the B&W CM1, Focal 706V, NHT Classic 3, Era 4, and Monitor Audio RS6. Would it be worth the extra money to upgrade to the Dali IKON 6 or Magnepan 1.6? I prefer rock, blues, jazz and a dash of everything else.

I am curious what people think about these choices? Do they integrate well together and balance nicely or should I be considering other options? I truly have no idea how to make my system sound it's best or what is the best way to allocate my 5K budget? I have been relying on reviews and info from TAS thus far. Any advice would go a long way! Thanks, Jason

Tom Martin -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 09:37

For speakers, this might help:

http://magazine.playbackmag.net/playback/200802web/

I would definitely spend some time with the Magnepans. You will either love them or hate them, but if it is love, it is worth it.

I wouldn't think "integrated vs. separates" but rather which amplifier. At this price level, though, I think integrateds have a lot to offer.

I know the next issue of Playback (out in a week) has a big survey of integrateds. Don't know if you can wait that long.

CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC

JR30 -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 13:45

Thank you for the feedback. I have listened to the Magnepans - and I do like what I hear. My concern is that most feedback regarding them is that they need a lot of power and sufficient space to sound their best. I am pretty sure that my space won't be cramped, but bedroom sized. I want to be able to listen at reasonably loud levels without blowing myself or anyone else out of the room! Another thought I had would be to add in a respectable sub like the REL T2 or Epos ELS with a smaller monitor. That would probably make better use of the amps power. What do you think? I will look for the integrated reviews next week.

Tom Martin -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 14:14

I know it sounds weird, but in a small space you might consider using a good AVR with room correction (Audyssey MultEQ or other). Reasons: small rooms have bass resonances at often-times nasty frequencies + if you want to use a sub, room correction makes integration MUCH easier.

Here is a review of an Onkyo with this feature:

http://magazine.playbackmag.net/playback/200712/

Onkyo and Denon have others. Many of them can use 4 of the 7 channels for stereo left/right so you have a bi-amped setup with about 250 wpc.

EasyBigFella -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 16:39

Hi Jason,

I think the Magnepans are by far the highest-resolution speakers in the $1-2k price range. They are magic with acoustic music. However, if you listen to a lot of rock and other "busy" music, and if your room is pretty small, you may find some good box two-ways with superior dynamics and "jump factor". Magnepans have excellent bass, but they don't have the "oomph". The "oomph", however, may just be a fun mishmash of colorations and port noise that makes the bass sound more punchy and "round" than it actually is.

Best,
Dave

EasyBigFella -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 16:44

As for Magnepans and power- any good integrated amplifier from the likes of Rotel, NAD, or Cambridge Audio, can drive the MMG or MG12 to its limits without a problem, as long as they can do at least 50W into 8 ohms. Amps from those companies all have beefy power supplies and strong output stages that can control 4 ohm loads. The bigger Maggie's are where you will run into trouble with non-heavyweight watt amps. The MMG and MG12 are more forgiving of small rooms, but they still need to be several feet from the back wall, and you may need to "tame" some glare from the tweeter and upper midrange.

JR30 -- Tue, 04/01/2008 - 18:08

Thanks for the heads up regarding the Maggies. I have been considering either amps or integrateds with 60W plus so that should be sufficient. I am pretty sure I can manage a room that is decent size, but regardless of the situation I had planned on making adjustments to the room to help tame some of the unruly frequency issues. I want to save the "oomph" for my home theater setup and get a more accurate response in my listening room. This was why I was asking about a sub that will flesh out the bottom end without getting bloated or artificial. In terms of the box two-ways does something in your experience separate itself from the pack - other than a Magico mini :D? If I happen to go that route before adding in a sub, I don't want the overall presentation to sound anemic.

Tom Martin -- Wed, 04/02/2008 - 09:37

The Magnepans are definitely a good choice. As for more conventional speakers, be sure to read the reviews from TAS that you can download here:

http://www.avguide.com/products/product-3037/

and:

http://www.avguide.com/products/product-4053/

With 5K to spend, it is worth considering a strategy of spending ~half your funds on speakers. Not that there is some mathematical magic, but that there are several really special speakers in the $1500-$2500 price range.

EasyBigFella -- Sat, 04/05/2008 - 09:19

Usher Be-718- good suggestion for a small room, Tom.

Tom Martin -- Mon, 04/07/2008 - 07:51

Thanks. When I think of speakers under $3k that several people on the TAS and Playback staffs have been very excited about, the Maggies, the Gallo Nucleus Reference, and the Usher Be-718 come to mind. I'm sure there are others, but this list also gives some real diversity to listen to. The Gallo is pretty full range (many will want this; can be a problem in some small rooms), the Maggies are dipole (and this can limit room problems; also gives different presentation) and the Ushers are high-performance mini-monitors (though not that mini really; more like midi-monitors) with the sparkle of a beryllium tweeter. I find that figuring out what you really value (i.e. fit to purpose) is important and I think these 3 speakers can help sort that out.

JR30 -- Tue, 04/08/2008 - 09:01

You provide several interesting suggestions for speakers. The Ushers in particular intrigue me due to their all-around performance. They also appear fairly easy to drive. With speakers of this caliber does putting them together with a $400-600 integrated amp make a good fit? Will an integrated like the Cambridge 540 have the transparency, delicacy, and control to bring out the special qualities in the Usher?

On another note do you have any personal experience with Paul Speltz's anticables speaker wire? I was considering using Kimber 8TC wire, but I keep hearing good reports about the anticables.

Tom Martin -- Tue, 04/08/2008 - 13:56

I've used a $799 Onkyo receiver with the Ushers and they sound fine. The Onkyo isn't the last word in transparency, but you might never know until you upgrade. Nothing horrible happens with good lower priced gear. BTW, I think the Maggies and the Gallos are plenty transparent to benefit from better and better electronics too; your issue isn't specific to the Ushers.

The Playback integrated amp test is out, in case that helps:

http://magazine.playbackmag.net/playback/200804web/

EasyBigFella -- Wed, 04/09/2008 - 16:09

I use Paul Speltz Anticables. I have very little experience with speaker cable, but I must say that Anticables are a bargain and they yield a huge improvement over cheap spool cable- cleaner and more articulate bass, less congestion and coloration in the midrange, and smoother and more natural highs. The difference between stock spool cable and AC's is immediately obvious on my Magnepans.

The good budget integrated amps all have exceptional sound quality. The thing with those units is that they are all very slightly canted to a certain sound, but still neutral enough for serious listening. Pairing one with a loudspeaker that is not in the same price range is perfectly fine, granted it has the current to get the most dynamic range. The Usher, for example, is 8 ohms, but only 87 dB sensitivity, so I personally would probably want at least 60-70W driving it.

-Dave

JR30 -- Wed, 04/09/2008 - 22:15

Dave,

Glad to hear about the anticables. Because I am starting from scratch and have to acquire rack, stands, interconnects, etc it is nice to know that I have a reasonablely-priced, well-performing speaker cable. Can always experiment later on once the system has been broken in and I have more cash!

Do you or anyone you know have any experience with Audiogon or similar sites (not Ebay)? If I can hunt down some quality speakers and gear I could definitely be willing to give it a try?

Tom,

I recently listened to the Gallos and loved them. Fear they would be too much speaker for a smaller room like you pointed out. I will probably be in a 10 X 11 foot or similar sized room. Unless I can convince the wife to let me have a bigger room. The integrated amp review in Playback was very helpful and did clear up some of my questions. My online hunting had brought to several of the units included in the article.

Tom Martin -- Thu, 04/10/2008 - 03:56

You may want to read the article "What you should know about Bass" which can be found in the Audio section on this page:

http://www.avguide.com/tech

In a 10 x 11 room, you are going to have resonant nodes (bass emphasis) at 113hz and 103hz. That's relatively high (for bass) and those nodes are pretty close together.

I'm not suggesting that you modify your house or your wife. But I would do one or more of these things:

1. If you currently have an amp, get all the other gear first, install it with the old amp and listen for a while. Then decide on your amplifier.

2. If the bass is seriously boomy, thick, or unmusical, consider one of the room correction receivers like those mentioned above. If you are happy, get the integrated you have in mind now.

3. If you can afford it, get some bass absorbing devices (RPG, ASC and others make these). Logically, step 3 should happen before step 2, but I don't know your budget exactly.

JR30 -- Thu, 04/10/2008 - 09:08

Good article. In practice then what would the ideal room dimensions be? I know there are many variables that enter into this equation, but with everything else set aside what size room would require the least amount of acoustical treatment. I believe I have read this before in TAS or TPV, but I can't find the article. Unfortunately I am starting from scratch so my total budget for gear and any room treatments would be around 5K.

Tom Martin -- Thu, 04/10/2008 - 12:05

A good source is the Master Handbook of Acoustics by F. Alton Everest:

http://www.amazon.com/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Alton-Everest/dp/0071360...

What book's like this concentrate on are the ratios of the dimensions of the room (generally width, length and height should be different dimensions and not be multiples of each other). But you also want the basic room nodes to be a useful frequencies (I'd say 40-100 hz, but that's my rule of thumb). You can calculate the rooms basic nodes with the formula:

nodal frequency = 1130/room dimension (ft.)

Just plug in each of the 3 room dimensions (height, width, length) and see what the frequencies are. Ideally they'd be spread out in the range I named.

RPG Acoustics has two very useful software programs to do vastly more sophisticated calculations that this. Room Optimizer calculates the optimal speaker locations, and I think they have another to define the room. I think they are $99, and at least one is available from Audio Advisor or you can get it directly from RPG.

EasyBigFella -- Fri, 04/11/2008 - 15:10

Jason,

Audiogon is a great resource... but, you should consider buying some of your stuff from a dealership and support the business. A lot of warranties are non-transferable, and stuff can get damaged during shipping.

Chris Martens -- Fri, 04/11/2008 - 19:36

I thought I'd weigh in on JR30's original and subsequent posts, in that I've reviewed the Gallo Reference 3s, the NHT Classic 3s and 4s, the NAD C 162/C 272 combo, the Monitor Audio RS6s, the Vincent SA-31/SP-331 combo, and I own the Magnepan MG 1.6s (man, that's a downright uncanny amount overlap, when you come to think of it).

Several thoughts and caveats:

1. I must candidly admit that I've never heard the Magnepans in anything other than a medium-to-large size room. I frankly don't know how they'd sound in a smaller space, but would caution that they do need to be pulled out several feet from the wall.

2. Let me assure you the NAD and Vincent preamp/power amp combos can both drive the Magnepans quite well (though the Maggies offer enough resolving power to make an eventual step-up to even better electronics worthwhile).

3. Of the speakers being discussed, I feel the Gallos, Magnepans, and Usher Be-718s offer the most absolute performance potential. You could weight the tradeoffs in many different ways, but here is my "short form" take on those three.

Gallo: Most nearly a true full-range speaker, excellent mids and highs, and an absolutely uncanny imager. Offers very broad dispersion, especially of high frequencies (tweeter radiates in 270 degrees, if I remember correctly, so you must be mindful of what's placed beside the speakers). The speaker is relatively short, so that you may want small "riser stands."

Magnepan: Most coherent through the midrange and produces, when properly set up, huge soundstages that are not only wide, but tall. Capable of better bass than most people think, if given a whole lot of run-in time (think 100+ hours, just to get things started). My experience has been that the speaker get better as the hours accumulate. Caveat: The 1.6 doesn't do super low bass or extreme highs.

Usher: Extremely revealing and open-sounding, and offers near-full range performance down to about ~40Hz, give or take a bit. A great speaker to grow with, because it works fine with modest electronics, yet hits a whole different gear when it is hooked up to premium-priced electronics and source components (this is true of most speakers to some degree, but with they right ancillary gear the Be-718s become true giant killers!).

But now, let me throw a couple of other ideas at you. One potentially amazing combo would be the Cayin A-50T tube amp driving the Definitive Mythos STS speakers. Or, if you can swing a slightly greater than $5k budget, try the same amp with the bigger Definitive Mythos STs. Interestingly, both Sandy Gross (Definitive's president) and Paul DiComo (Definitive's VP of marketing) own and swear by the Cayin/Mythos ST combo. What makes the pairing click is that the highly revealing tweeter/midrange section of the Mythos ST or STS is actually quite easy to drive, while the potent bass section is self-powered (taking the workload off of the Cayin). So, you enjoy the Cayin's tube-driven midrange and treble magic, while letting the Definitive's built-in powered subwoofer section take care of business down low: the best of both worlds.

Another speaker I feel is worthy of your consideration (and very affordable) is the NHT Classic Four, which is the full-range, four-way, floorstander version of the Classic Three. In my TPV tests (done with a Classic Four-based surround system), I got a kick out of the fact that guest listeners would hear the Classic Fours in stereo, yet were convinced they were hearing the whole surround system in play (yep, the imaging was really that holographic).

'Hope these comments provide some interesting food for thought.

Chris Martens
Editor, Avguide.com/Playback/The Perfect Vision

JR30 -- Fri, 04/11/2008 - 21:43

Chris,

Pretty sure I have read every review of which you speak. I appreciate the extra input and it does set me to thinking. I will be moving within 6 months so I am not sure what size space will be available. In the best of both worlds I will have a space for my modest home theater and another for a stereo setup. My small room comment is one based on a worst-case scenario. If the size of the room turns out to not be a problem than the limited bass response of either the Maggie or Usher won't be as much an issue because I can always reinforce the bottom end with a good sub at a later time.

I have heard the Mythos and they are amazing, but probably outside my price range. The NHT is an interesting suggestion and I will have to try and audition a pair. The integrated review in Playback was excellent and helped me to narrow down my focus a bit. The Cambrige 740 is tempting from a $$ standpoint, but I am very tempted to go with a tube amp like the Cayin. How do you think the Cayin and Ushers would mesh together?

Jim Hannon -- Sun, 05/04/2008 - 13:42

If you haven't already made your purchase, you might want to check out some of the Quad dynamic speakers. I mated them with a NAD integrated and the overall sound was surprisingly good. The woodworking is excellent, too.

They've come out with a new series that I haven't heard with supposedly a better tweeter. I'm looking forward to trying them out.

If you have a large enough room, the Maggie 1.6s are a great suggestion.
However, I'd be hesitant to recommend them in a small room, even with room correction.

Good luck!