So, what is the latest on blu-ray as a multichannel music medium?
Given that its a new medium, music on Blu-ray seems to be doing quite well. It's very early days, though...
I think it is looking like streaming will prevail
AIX Records plans on a slate of new releases in Blu-ray in 2009. Neil Young has announced that he plans to re-issue his entire catalog in the format next year. I suspect that BD will start as an audiophile format rather than be embraced by the record labels as a mass-market format.
Audiophiles Find Holy Grail on Blu-ray http://purelinkav.com/2010/10/audiophiles-find-holy-grail-on-blu-ray/
I wrote this story because most audiophiles would be shocked to learn they can listen to "one to one" copies of the original master tapes on Blu-ray music discs. Thats why Neil Young finally relented and allowed his music to be sold on disc. Btw, you have to listen via the HDMI output, thats the protected bit-stream connection where the audio content is found on a disc. Obviously, your pre-amp must have the latest version of HDMI too. You can't record it, you can only listen to it but its worth it. New live concerts are the best, recording digitally straight to BD. Europe has the most offerings now but American record labels are starting to pay attention too. I asked one of MFSL's former execs if they had any interest in launching a new audiophile label, they could bring Dark Side of the Moon back for an encore, all the rest of their classics too.
Rich -- you mention that music on blu-ray is doing quite well, but I'm not aware of any releases to date. What do you have that you can recommend?
Lear wrote:Rich -- you mention that music on blu-ray is doing quite well, but I'm not aware of any releases to date. What do you have that you can recommend?
I don't actually own any music Blu-rays (yet)--the closest I have is AC/DC's concert at Castle Donnington. Check on www.blu-ray.com for listings (and reviews) of Blu-rays, including several music-only releases.
There are several concert discs on Blu-ray with Dolby TrueHD (with video). I think Lear is asking about Blu-ray's potential as a music format (no video).
I don't really care whether there is or isn't video (actually video would be nice). But is there a possible future where some new releases come out on blu-ray?
For example, I just got the McCoy Tyner Guitarsdisc. Could such a disc in the future be on blu-ray? I also just got MTT and the SFS doing Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde. It is MC, but in a future world, could that be blu-ray instead of SACD?
If the answer is yes, then when is that future? Who will participate? Is it a good future? What equipment do I need?
Lear wrote:I don't really care whether there is or isn't video (actually video would be nice). But is there a possible future where some new releases come out on blu-ray?
As an avid, evangelical convert to hi rez multichannel about a year ago, I would like to give you my own insights and opinions. Forgive my long windedness, but I hope it is helpful.
First, Mch music is alive and well in the form of SACDâ€™s and DVD-Aâ€™s right now, although they exist as a small niche in the total recorded music market. There are thousands of Mch titles in these formats. Though DVD-A is effectively dead, SACD has been growing at about 500-800 titles/year (www.sa-cd.net). And, neither format is hard to come by via Amazon and many other online retailers. The overwhelming majority of these releases are classical, most coming from small European labels and also Telarc in the US, with mostly excellent engineering. Depending on your viewpoint, thatâ€™s either good news or bad. For my musical tastes, itâ€™s good news. There are a fair number of releases in other genres, but some people, except classical lovers, are somewhat disappointed at the selection. Also, contrary to high end fears as Mch emerged, most releases I am aware of are not â€œin the roundâ€ recordings. The performers appear in front of you, as they should, with a dramatically heightened sense of soundstage width, depth, dimensionality and ambience. If your system is properly set up, there is generally no awareness of the rear speakers until you revert to stereo, which is then extremely dull and lacking by comparison. The sense that your room is now the recording venue and that you are transported there is uncanny in Mch.
Blu Ray was only anointed as the single new disc standard about 6 months ago. And, that was based entirely on its video capabilities, which is where the industry focus has largely remained. Right now, there is to my knowledge, only one music only release â€“ the Norwegian 2L labelâ€™s Divertimenti , which is classical, naturally. Andy Quint reviewed it in TAS several issues ago. Note that this is an â€œin the roundâ€ recording, a format I do not prefer. There are some music/video releases, such as live rock/pop concerts, and a few ballets and operas.
But, it seems a sure bet, a no brainer to many, that Blu Ray will emerge as an important new medium . Why? On the supply side, both many well heeled manufacturers (mostly Asian mass marketers) and the movie industry are demonstrating an unprecedented degree of cooperation in fostering the growth of this new medium. They have invested huge sums in it, and they think there are handsome profits to be made from replacing the current standards â€“ DVD for video and CD for music â€“ with Blu Ray. Not only can they get consumers to re-buy older releases in Blu Ray, but I believe that it gives them better control over the distribution of the content. The Digital Rights Management (DRM) of Blu Ray is much stronger than that of the old standards, preventing uncontrolled duplication and distribution. Naysayers often pooh-pooh Blu Ray, saying that hi def, hi resolution downloads directly from the internet will obviate the need for discs and player. But, I disagree because of the DRM issue, which is best implemented via the current system of discs and players. So, there is a strong vested economic interest against downloads for the foreseeable future. I believe the disc and player paradigm will be with us for quite some time in Blu Ray.
On the demand side, Blu Ray players are demonstrably better for video and audio via hi def TVâ€™s and home theaters than DVD was. Prices are falling rapidly to an entry level under $200 for a player. Player sales, though recession affected, are quite strong and multiyear industry sales forecasts call for a real bonanza. Some large electronics retailers, like Crutchfield, are already reporting higher revenues from Blu Ray players than from DVD. Higher quality sound than CD for music-only releases might be a tougher sell, however. So, I do not expect CDâ€™s to go away soon, whereas DVD-only players will be toast within a few years. As we high enders know only too well, better sound alone does not necessarily guarantee popular success.
The Asian electronics mass marketers, who are really driving the push to Blu Ray, have begun to address the music-only issue. They are working on a level 3.0 standard, which is the Blu Ray Music Standard. Blu Ray 2.0 is the current standard and it deals with the marriage of video/audio (movies) and related internet content. Details of Blu Ray 3.0 are still sketchy, but it will at least allow audio playback in the hi rez lossless formats without the need for a video monitor. Current Blu Ray requires the user to select via the video monitor which audio playback resolution is desired, since the discs support many concurrent levels of audio resolution for compatibility with older and newer sound systems. However, Blu Ray music releases should be audio codec compatible with existing Blu Ray players in hi rez Mch.
I think it is safe to bet that hi rez Mch Blu Ray music is going to succeed, but you can get plenty of excellent classical music in hi rez Mch right now in the growing SACD catalog and from the stagnant DVD-A catalog. New SACD releases will undoubtedly dwindle as Blu Ray music ramps up, until that catalog, like DVD-A, becomes stagnant.
If I have not put you to sleep yet, here are some thoughts on equipment. There are two basic approaches to multichannel: the traditional high end approach and the home theater approach.
A few in the high end had a brief and tentative interest in Mch five or more years ago, but not much has happened there since. The high end has not been proactive at all about Mch. There were and still are some Mch analog line stages from the likes of Audio Research, McCormack, etc. and an excellent SACD/CD player/DAC from Meitner. An Esoteric universal player with atomic clock and 3 stereo DACâ€™s might be the crÃ¨me de la crÃ¨me for SACD. The problem is these are all 6 or 5.1 channel solutions based on the SACD/DVD-A paradigm. The Mch line stages are not able to give you the 7.1 channel capability Blu Ray will support. They also lack, in my opinion, vital features like speaker distance compensation and bass management or at least I see nothing in their specs to indicate that they have them. I know some audiophiles with this setup, and it sounds great with SACD. But, they needed to have 5 identical speakers equidistant from the sweet spot, an often impossible requirement to meet. Also, due to the lack of bass management, all speakers are run full range, even with a sub for the .1 channel. By all appearances, this approach is dead, though there might be some 8 channel line stages that will appear.
I think it's clear the home theater approach is far, far better from many standpoints. There are a fair number of really good audio/video processors(AVPâ€™s) that can take you there. Some high enders like Krell, Levinson, Simaudio, Classe and Anthem have recently released new, costly AVPâ€™s for Blu Ray. Asian mass marketersâ€“ Onkyo/Integra, Denon and Marantz - have led the way, though, with full featured, brand flagship AVPâ€™s that perform at a very high sonic standard and, in some cases, at bargain prices. The Asians also lead the way with Blu Ray players at many price points as well as Mch universal machines supporting SACD/DVD-A/DVD-V /CD.
Speaker distance, bass management and other goodies are built in to the AVPâ€™s, many also including the amazingly excellent Audyssey â€œroom correctionâ€ EQ. I consider DSP-based EQ an essential for Mch sound, and I would never again be without it. Itâ€™s a huge advance. (See Robert E. Greeneâ€™s excellent recent article on DSP EQ in TAS.) Hence, the Classe AVP, which eschews this, would be at the bottom of my priority list. The AVPâ€™s all support SACD, DVD-A and Blu Ray lossless 7.1, as well as older sound formats, plus 1080p hi def video, too. With a good subwoofer, side and rear speakers do not need to be as large and costly as the front speakers due to excellent bass management in the AVPâ€™s DSP. There are a host of other advantages to this approach.
Because this is a largely digital paradigm, a lot of our instinctive, undying analog prejudices no longer apply. For example, though maligned on sonic grounds by some in the high end without any hard evidence whatsoever, I am a fan of the digital Mch HDMI hookup between player and AVP. By virtue of using HDMI, I simply do not believe it is necessary to buy a top dollar player with an expensive, extreme analog output stage. So, I am patiently waiting for the Oppo Blu Ray player to appear. I think it will be a benchmark performer via HDMI at a relative bargain price, though lackluster via its analog outs. I seriously doubt that $2k or more for a Pioneer Elite, Denon or Sony Blu Ray player would prove to be worth the extra money in my system. Plus, the Oppo will also play SACDâ€™s and maybe DVD-Aâ€™s. The others do not, at this point.
I am suspicious of analog processing by any of these largely digital AVPâ€™s. There is a lot of digital EMI/RFI inside any AVP that could degrade a fragile analog signal. So, I prefer to run my 2-channel analog sources into a separate, high quality, stereo line stage (Levinson) with unity gain, home theater bypass. The front channel AVP analog outs also are routed through the stereo line stage, bypassing its volume control. I think I get the best of both worlds this way.
If you are still with me, I would like to tell you a bit about my discovery of hi rez multichannel. For video reasons, I decided over a year ago to upgrade/merge my stereo system into a hybrid home theater/music system. I fully expected my music listening to continue to be in stereo, while my video watching would be with Mch sound. I added smaller speakers from the same manufacturer â€“ Martin Logan. I find little credence to the high end myth that the center channel speaker should not be a horizontal home theater speaker; mine is. Additional center and surround amps from Bryston and Parasound Halo are quite satisfying, though less exalted and expensive than my front Krell monoblocks. An excellent JL Audio fathom f113 sub was also added. I bought an Integra DTC 9.8 AVP, because it was Blu Ray ready, and it appeared to be a bargain based on its features. I had an Oppo 980 player costing all of $169 for DVDâ€™s, but it also supported SACD and DVD-A. Out of curiosity, I bought the Ondine Mch SACD of the Mahler Symphony No. 6 with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I had been at this concert when it was recorded live. Now, I must tell you I have been a high end audiophile for 50 years since building Dynakits in high school. My pre-upgrade stereo cost over $50K (not bragging, just giving perspective). I have heard many, many stereos costing several times more than my own. My reaction to my first Mch SACD was â€¦ Holy Toledo!! Never had I heard reproduced sound as close to the sound of the real thing live in my life. And, no stereo I have ever heard even comes close. No way. This is the greatest sonic breakthrough I have ever heard. Itâ€™s a game changer. Itâ€™s bigger in my opinion than mono vs. stereo (I go back that far in time) in terms of capturing the realistic sense of live music. It is truly mind boggling that all this was possible from an AVP and player costing under $2K combined!!
Meanwhhile, over a year later, I am still bristling with excitement about hi rez multichannel. SACD, Blu Ray, whatever way, Iâ€™ll take it over stereo any day. In spite of very large CD and vinyl collections, I just do not have much time for or interest in stereo anymore for serious music listening. I am closer to the absolute sound of the real thing live than I ever in my wildest dreams thought possible.
Good stuff. Thanks.
Any idea when blu-ray 3.0 will be done?
I still think MC audio in the long term depends on more actual music being released. SACD is nice, but I see two problems:
-- the software is mostly classical, and as much as I like classical, man cannot live by classical alone
-- very little new hardware will be released; over time that means that installed base will go down and that can't be good for what little software there is
Lear wrote:Good stuff. Thanks.
I think Blu Ray 3.0 will be done well before the middle of next year, but it's a pure guess.
As to repertoire, you might browse www.sa-cd.net ,which has every single SACD title plus some reviews. It's a great resource. Also, check Amazon for DVD-A titles. Except for this, there is no single list for DVD-A as there is for SACD. See if there are not enough titles of interest to at least invest $169 on an Oppo 980, which will play either format and sound damn good via HDMI. It's a really good DVD player, too. As long as your AVP handles HDMI and is Blu Ray ready, you can always add the Blu Ray player later.
For sentimental reasons, I bought the Allman Bros. Eat a Peach album on SACD multichannel. I have the original vinyl. How can I say it, Eat a Peach is truly awesome in SACD Mch. Though recorded in the early 70's, this is a great sounding album and much better than the vinyl original.
Oppo is a great company I have immense respect for. They seem to be committed to including SACD capability for the forseeable future, as has already been announced at CEDIA for their as yet unreleased Blu Ray machine. Sony, which had dropped all SACD players, their own invention, has a new ES level Mch SACD/CD machine with HDMI out. (No video; no DVD-A) There are strong rumors of a new Denon flagship Blu Ray machine, which will include SACD. So, rumors of the death of SACD are greatly exagerated, not that it won't not happen in time, but that may be a long time.
Have you seen this:
EMI’s New SACD Remasters (2012)
Pedant alert! It's "Blu-ray" (hyphenated, lower case "R"), not "Blu Ray" or "Blu-Ray".
Though Rich, you have to admit that if Sony really cared, the logo for Blu-ray wouldn't use a lower case b as its core image!
CEO and Editorial Director, Nextscreen LLC
RichTeer is correct about Blu-ray typography.
In the industry the format is known simply as BD.
I set up a new forum in the Media section to capture posts about Blu-ray and other new format music releases:
sacd is alive and quite well, although MC is not as popular as before. Bummer. BD music is hopefully the new MC route. with most having HT and BD players, it's a no brainer. Try it! The man. seem to have every genre covered, one of my favs is Roy Orbison. Terrific sound! And at high resolution, this is the new way to go. But! it will not last! Like sacd/dvd audio it too will meet it's demise, with streaming. there will always be those who will embrace the "old" way.
I like gorls
One look at Amazon's Top 300 Music Blu-ray discs will show you just how much content is available, be sure to get Tony Bennett Duets II, an astonishing collection of classics, performed in studio, live. Adele's live version of her hit album is much better tnan the studio version on CD, if you want to really hear what she sounds like live, get the Blu-ray. Rob Thomas At Red Rock is also inspiring, in a Dylan-esqe kind of way, this guy and his band rock.
If you dont want to see the video, turn your TV off. These are all multi-channel or two channel, you can choose.
just picked up the eagle vision sampler 91 cents!! 39 different artists, and it's great! yep it's a BD and DTS MA to boot.
I was playing Santana - Greatests Hits - Live at Montreux 2011 last night in 5.1 surround (BD adition) and was somewhat stunned at the sound quality. Great performance that seems to have been recorded very well indeed. I think to really appreciate the BD format the onus is on the speakers, as they will become even more the weakest link in the audio chain. Want to show off the best speakers? BD is the way to go and it will become commonplace after a few years, no doubt and stand the test of time, as do all 'real' improvements in audio/visual technology.
Keladrin, you were able to hear the studio master recording on Blu-ray, stunning because the dynamic range is much greater than any format ever offered to consumers. This audio content is "uncompressed", not "lossless" which is an oxymoron if there ever was one.. Indeed the power amp and speakers must be able to handle this new level of dynamic range, its 50% higher than any other format, it can sound just like the original studio master if your system is up to the task. I found I was able to turn my system down and still reach higher levels on Blu-ray, with no compression to overcome, the amp finally got to do its job with nothing in its way.
Sade Live on Blu-ray is on its way this week, I hear its a monumental release, some are saying the best Blu-ray music concert ever, we'll find out this weekend. I was astonished by the Adele Live concert and Tony Bennett's Duets II, watching them sing, hearing those voices,its just a whole new music listening experience. There are many others as well, from U2 at the Rose Bowl, Stevie Wonder, and 25th Anniversary Rock and Roll Hall of Fame concert featuring Simon and Garfunkel, nothing ever sounded and looked so good as Blu-ray. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, spread the word.
Hi Bob, I was using the optical link into my av receiver but my receiver does not support the DTS HD format only the standard DTS format. I know the new format is backward compatible but what do you lose in not having the HD format in decoder. Just occured to me it may have been downconverted from the master after all.
Hi Keladrin, sorry but the SPDIF/Coaxial Audio input on an AVR is not capable of handling the amount of data and the bandwidth of DTS MasterHD or Dolby TruHD, you have to have your Blu-ray player connected via HDMI into an AVR with minimum v1.3 HDMI in order to get DTS MasterHD and Dolby TruHD processing. Its not just that fact alone, the studios and record labels will not allow us to record this HD audio content, we can only listen. The trade off for this loss of control is the best content in history; HDMI uses a copy protection technology called HDCP. The source and the HDTV shake hands, its a two way communication to assure the security of the content from piracy. If that handshake is not made, the Blu-ray defaults to a lower rez version of the soundtrack, the equivalant of DVD-A and SACD, both better than regular CD but still compressed 2 to 1. This digital handshake is the only reason the studios allowed a copy of the studio master recording to be sold to consumers, there was more than enough storage space on the Blu-ray (50 Gb) to hold the full master recording, but without that copyguard, the studios would never have allowed it out the door.
We live in an era of DRM, Digital Rights Management. Its a toll road. The higher the resolution, the more it costs. Uncompressed native 1080p video is the best video content avaiable and if your system is capable, uncompressed studio master recordings are finally at our fingertips. All we have to do is follow their protocols. I fought it for a while but with all that dynamic range dangled in front of me, I couldnt resist , I upgraded to a Pioneer Elite VSX-23 AVR with v1.3 HDMI and preamp outputs for my big amplifier. There may be less expensive ways to go if you dont mind using the built-in amplfier in the receiver, but its not worth investing in an expensive preamp processor, it will only become obsolete in 2 years. I dont mind upgrading an AVR with pre outs every few years like any computer, thats how i regard the front end now. Data rates and bandwidth will grow, 4K is right around the corner.
Hope this helps.
That very interesting - looks like I will need to upgrade the reciever then, but this is well overdue as it's a budget model over 10 years old and the centre channel no longer functions.
Actually there is something I don't quite understand. If I list the audio tracks on this disc there are 3: 2.1 stereo, DTS HD and Dolby HD (surround tracks). So what am I getting through the optical link? some other track that has had compression applied? Why is this not listed as the available tracks? Is there always an equivalent compressed DTS track present? Seems a bit odd as the DTS HD is claimed to be backward compatible and it would be a waste of space. Maybe my receiver is doing the compressing in converting the format, but this also seems like a strange way to do things?
I have been using a 12 yr old AVR right up till now, with analog inputs 5.1. It carries the signal just fine. many higher level AVR's still include
analog in put. I am looking at the nuforce upgrade dac's for my Oppo 93. And the dacs are only avail. through that route. It will not opertae with HDMI.
Of course the downside of this is the inability to stream DSD on SACD's. As opposed to buying a new AVR that I really do not need, I'll use this for a while yet I have accumulated 6 BD music titles, 2 are mostly music, the Pink Floyd re issues of DSOTM and WYWH, that are great! dvd audio is still being produced but with few titles. BD has taken the job over, it is still the same process, MLP, that's used.
So Sony has caved in one respect, by employing MLP in the productions they put out. 1st trying to kill it, then embrace it-Sony-all balony
Any digital to analog content you listen to will be compressed, CD is the worst, there is only 700 Mb of data storage on a CD so they have to compress the dynamics 4 to 1 in order to fit all the music on one disc. (BD has 50 Gb storage) Although you can still connect either your old or even a new AVR via analog inputs and outputs, why would you want too? The Oppo will output the highest resolution via HDMI, you can program it for LPCM 2.0 and it will sound far better than using any analog output or input.
Once you take this leap into the digital era, you wont look back. HDMI is high speed bitstream, but you will need a late model AVR. The audio decoding in your current AVR only takes you to basic Dolby Digital and DTS. DVD-A failed as a format but Dolby Digital EX and DTS Surround ES with MLP increased dynamics by 10 dB over CD, a worthy improvement but still compressed by over 50%. Blu-ray music is uncompressed, but you cant hear it without HDMI, its the law now. When you hear it, you will understand why I call it the Holy Grail of High Fidelity, the best audio content ever offered to consumers.
Thats interesting, but more questions arise - I thought compression of the dynamics would not result in less storage space, just less dynamic range and higher overall volume as with CD's. Dynamic range is surely limited by the recording medium (CD's are 90db, which is 20db more than vinyl and should be enough as long as the muisc is not dynamically compressed). Surely you have to use lower bitrates (less sampling resolution) or some other kind of compression to fit more on? What is the audio track available at the HDMI lead then DTS HD? Does selection of a soudtrack from the disc audio menu affect what is output on HDMI or is this fixed?
Compression of dynamics and compression of data are two different things.
"Blu-ray music is uncompressed, but you cant hear it without HDMI, its the law now. When you hear it, you will understand why I call it the Holy Grail of High Fidelity, the best audio content ever offered to consumers."
I must state that I have several BD using 5.1 analog out from my oppo 93, that does decode the High resolution audio. I have not heard it was law to religate this to HDMI, possibly a better route, but my stuff comes across in the format the maker intended via analog. You say that it's not possible to hear it uncompressed, I must object to that, as it works for me this way.
can you please define the use of the word law as being a term or fact. and if fact. please share. also dvd audio is the same as BD in production and playback capabilitys, I see or hear no diff. in the two media.
Sorry, you are mistaken about that. The 5.1 analog outputs cannot access the highest res audio content on the disc, the studios restrict that output so that it can only be accessed via the HDMI connection because of the digital handshake, a two way communication that authenticates a secure connection that cannot be hacked or copied. This DTS Master HD or Dolby TruHD audio content is uncompressed, a bit for bit copy of the original master recording, but they will not allow it to be heard without the secure connection of HDMI, developed by Intel for the Studios/Record labels by Silicon Image. The video content is also protected the same way; you can access the 720p/1080i version of the Blu-ray via the analog outputs (until Dec 31, 2012) but 1080p (225% more data than 720p) can only be veiwed via the secure HDMI connection.
There is a new level of performance you have not experienced yet, you wont believe your ears when you do. Astonishing.
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 sets the rules of the road for digtial, the Studios and Record Labels got the control over this content they have be fighting for since the 1960's. They even have the right to downrez the audio and video content from the analog outputs, thats why we are in the period called Analog Sunset right now, read the blogs: http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/10/analog-sunset-begins-all-the-new-blu-ray-players-will-only-outp/ or this white paper by Extron, http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=analogsunsetwp
There is much to learn for audiophiles, this is not easy, but the rewards are great.
That is understandable in terms of the sample resolutuion, but assuming you don't have this HMDI link you say you are playing a compressed signal. So where is this dynamic compression taking place if the original HD tracks are not dynamically compressed. Wouldn't you have to have another compressed version recorded? I can understand that it is downsampled but dynamically compressed as well? Seems a bit of an overhead. Also does the disc menu control which track is output at the HDMI lead? Thanks.
The compression is applied during the post producttion process; the studios and record labels will not allow one to one copies of their master recordings to be heard without the authentication of HDCP through HDMI connection but apply the same compression applied to CD's and DVD's to show up on Blu-ray as a default setting if no HDMI cable is used. The analog outputs this compressed content only, not the uncompressed content. Yes, the disc menu allows you to choose but if you choose DTS MasterHD or Dolby TruHD and the signal is not traveling over HDMI into the properly equipped AVR or preamp with the processing, the player knows and automatically downrezzes to the next resolution down. Even on a Blu-ray disc, if you dont havve the proper protocols for playback, you will hear either 3 to 1 or 2 to 1 compression.
Resistance is Futile, as the Borg used to say. To hear the best audio content in history, you have to be connected by HDMi with HDCP. Copyright protection is the law of the land.
OK so if compression is applied in the production you must have 5 soundtracks on disc - DTS HD, Dolby HD, DTS HD compressed format, Dolby HD compressed format and PCM stereo?
Its possible yes, but you dont see them all as choices. In many cases, you see the DTS MasterHD option along with LPCM Stereo. if you choose the DTS option, your player and AVR can only see the lower res version, plain old DTS or Dolby, if you dont have the HDMI connection and proper decoding at the AVR.
That makes sense, thanks Bob. I will have to upgrade soon I think
OK then please tell me why upon playing a BD via 5.1 analog in, that I get a reading with on screen that it's in high res? I am talking this to Oppo to settle it. I do not think you are correct. I have for example "Black and White nights" Roy Orbison on BD. It is 96/24 according to you it should not be that yet it is!
I have that disc too, it has a DTS Master HD soundtrack. If you see the DTS Master HD logo light up on the display of your AVR or preamp, then you are listening to the highest resolution. 96/24 does not take you that far, better than a CD but not the bit for bit copy of the master studio recording. Dont let the word's "high resolution" confuse you. These protocols for playback are tied to the video presentation as well, you cant actually watch a native, uncompressed 1080p image except from ah HDMI connection thats secure.
Response from Oppo regarding analog ports:
The player fully supports decoding and processing Dolby Digital TrueHD, DTS-HD Master, DVD-Audio (MLP), SACD (DSD), FLAC, WAV and other high resolution audio formats at full resolution without any loss of clarity or added compression. The previous response you received is true for digital coaxial and optical which are restricted to standard resolution (16-bit/48KHz), but does not apply to the analog outputs on the player.
Now if you were referingb to keldrin OK, but as for my statement, thanks!
You must have confused them, they should know that the highest resolution formats DTS MasterHD and Dolby TruHD are only available via HDMI connection, not analog. The copyright of the "bit for bit" identical to the studio master recording is protected, they will not allow any consumer to have access to it without authentication of a secure connection with HDCP.
Analog Sunset is under way right now. At the end of 2012, there will be no Blu-ray players with analog outputs for either audio or video, there will only be an HDMI output, many already come that way now. They intend to manage how we view and listen, its called DRM. The legal framework for DRM was established in the DMCA of 1998. The Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of the studios and record labels, against the Fair Use doctrine and consumers. However, the content is better than its ever been so once you embrace the future, you wont look back.
So the engineers at Oppo are wrong? You ask! www.oppodigital.com/support
So the engineers at Oppo are wrong? You ask! www.oppodigital.com/support
Not an attempt at being faceious, but I just do not get where youn are coming from here. There will always be a route to use analog ports,
why else would nuforce be making costly upgrad dacs for these things? I would love to see the day that I can't accsess DTS MA on BD via analog. I urge you to take this to oppo to tell them they are wrong regarding it. After all they made the thing and the only ones to respond to customers. after you dialouge with them I welcome input.
Like I said, they must have mis-understood your question; they know the law does not permit playback of the protected 1080p content or studio master soundtracks without an HDMI connection that is HDCP compliant. I dont have to ask, I'm absolutely confident that I am telling you the facts. Most people dont want to hear it but its the truth, no DTS Master HD or Dolby TruHD without an HDM connection, no 1080p video either. Dont blame me, I didnt make the new rules, the studios did. It may seem unfair but once you upgrade you will agree its worth it.
I get you with video but for audio? I leave you to opinon but I sent oppo a copy of youir post! how can the question be taken wrong, when it came from you?
again, I sent them a copy of the last post and will post the reply. No further need to discuss it. thanks! Al
I see the confusion, which model do you have? some older Blu-ray players supported decoding within the player itself, but are no longer available because of the aforementioned new rules. I will get in touch with them to clarify, its clear the studios and record labels are not allowing that content to be accessed except within a protected throughput.
DRM will protect the analog outputs for video, but not audio. Component is restricted to 1080i for Blu-ray, 480i for ITC protected Blu-ray, and 480p from CSS encrypted DVDs.
There are no regulations for analog audio. Source in; source out is completely allowed when using the analog audio outputs, which includes SACD DSD passthrough, decoding and expanding HDCD into 24-bit word length, and decoding Dolby Digital TrueHD and DTS-HD Master audio up to 24-bit/192KHz multi-channel.
HDCP does not have anything to do with audio in these cases, as analog audio outputs are exempt from these limits as there is no copy protection that can occur on these outputs. HDCP is primarily designed to stop video piracy, not audio piracy.
AND THAT AS THEY SAY, IS THAT! Evidently you are not the maker, and possibly have some knowledge. I know squat- so I always refer back to the scource of my knowledge. I sent both times copies of your claims. both times I posted Oppo's answer. Cheers! al
Hey,, everybody is entitled to an opinion and I am only telling you what I experienced personally. In order to get the 1080p video for my projector, I had to be connected via HDMI, there was no choice about that. Oppo says that if I had used the Dolby TruHD or DTS Master HD decoders in my player, I could have then used the analog audio outputs of the player and inputs on my AVR and had the same audio quality as I do when using the HDMI connection. However, that would have defeated the on-board room correction system built-in to the AVR, I never even considered it.
Apparently the choices to do the video digitally and the audio via analog simultaneously exist, it was just counter-intuitive to me to use them that way. I will attempt to listen to it that way and confirm one way or the other if they are in fact equal. All I really know for sure is that the new audio codecs are the best we have ever had and the listening experience is astonishing. if it can be done both ways, thats a good thing too. Its just hard to believe the record labels would allow a 'bit for bit" copy of the master recording, even if its analog, to be copied so easily. They have other ways to enforce these new rules, one is Digital Only Token and the other is Image Restraint Token, the studios retain the right to down-rez at anytime if they dont like the connection protocols,they can imbed those tokens in the software.
I will soon upgrade to hdmi avr, but will always use my nuforce dac upgrade. so that means an avr with analog inputs. still being made.
I do know I am not getting DSD from my sacd's, but I have more dvd audio an BD. I thank you for your humitity. and the way you iscussed this, it was enjoyable! Thanks! Cheers! al
What kind of analogue connectors are you using - 6 phonos? I might try this, thanks.
I've learned over the years that being humble when faced with facts not considered is the best approach, how else can we learn? i dont mind being wrong, at least my point of viiew made some sense. As it turns out, when you search for Blu-ray players with built-in Dolby TruHD and DTS Master HD decoding at Amazon, there are none available. A more general Google search shows a few with that feature built-in but they are more expensive than the players that dont include it, about $100 more. It is estimated that 97% of all Blu-ray players now in use do not have built-in Dolby TruHD or DTS MasterHD and that among those that do, Oppo is the biggest seller.
For consumers who already own the required late model HDMI v1.3 AVR or preamp with that feature built in, it would be redundant to spend money on a player with the same feature, instead WiFi connectivity is now the big feature on most players. Given the lack of choice and higher prices, my advice has the practical advantage of also being able to use the AVR's built-in room correction for low frequencies with the HDMI connection. Coming into the AVR analog diables the room correction feature.
In my first listening sesson last night, I could hear the difference between the two, perhaps because the HDMI was a more "direct" connection, keeping the audio signal in the digital domain until the amplification, one less analog step. The sttudios and record labels believe that once the signal is converted from digital to analog, its not worthy of protecting, its no longer a bit for bit copy of the studio master so why bother? There was more clarity and better resolution using the HDMI output of the player into the AVR. It works in analog but there is a difference that was pretty easy to detect., I plan to discover why.
Once you upgrade you will be able to compare as well, let me know what you think once you do.